Highest level of womens tennis so far?

[Joe Pike]

Your "facts" are largely irrelevant and have little bearing on how difficult it would be for Graf to avoid being dominated by Serena

Let's have a look against which players Steffi and Serena lost (in their 12 best years each). Especially against journeywomen, meaning players who never made a slam final.

Steffi lost to McNeil, Provis, Coetzer, deSwardt, Date in 1986-97.

Serena lost to Testud, Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder, Rubin, Petrova, Jidkova, Farina Elia, Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer, Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Azarenka, Zakopalova in 1999-2010.

No, I think it would not have been very difficult for Steffi "to avoid being dominated" by a player who lost tons of matches against journeywomen like these.
Not difficult at all ...

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

Let's have a look against which players Steffi and Serena lost (in their 12 best years each). Especially against journeywomen, meaning players who never made a slam final.

Steffi lost to McNeil, Provis, Coetzer, deSwardt, Date in 1986-97.

Serena lost to Testud, Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder, Rubin, Petrova, Jidkova, Farina Elia, Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer, Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Azarenka, Zakopalova in 1999-2010.

No, I think it would not have been very difficult for Steffi "to avoid being dominated" by a player who lost tons of matches against journeywomen like these.
Not difficult at all ...

You can't look at a players 'highest level' and then take their worse losses and demerit them. All great players have bad losses. All of them. I believe the OP explicitly stated that he was looking at only a few months, not career. I know you have a massive hard on for Graf, which is fine (I guess). But to me it's impossible to compare the eras and say Serena is lesser b/c of her worst losses.

Great players find a way to be great. It's impossible to say either Steffi or Serena would have dominated each other if they played in the same era.

 

[Tanya]

What a joke? People actually trying to play up the level of Serena's performance at the 07 AO.

She was fat.
She was huffing and puffing at times during the tournament.
She should have lost to Nadia Petrova in the 3rd round or perhaps even to Shahar Peer in the quarters.

Utter stupidity.

Cleary you cannot read--I said her performance in the 07 AO Final. The fact that she struggled so much in the previous stages of the tournament only makes her performance against Sharapova even more remarkable.

You're becoming one of the uglier, rabid trolls around here with your blind Graf zealousness...starting to remind me of Father Marjorie (and no, contrary to what you may think, that is not a compliment...I know how you love to kiss 'her' ass).

 

[CyBorg]

Agreed. Against peak Serena, Graf would find herself on the defensive, a very unusual position for her to be in, scrambling to stay in points and a rare opening to hit a big forehand. That is how she was when they played in 99 at Indian Wells, it would be even worse against a full adult mature Serena (even with Graf in her better years than 99). Graf would need to serve lights out as well, and hope Serena had a bit of an off serving day. It would be competitive of course but Graf would be the one more up against it than Serena. Graf would have very little margin of error to even have a chance of winning and would be at the mercy of Serena's winners and errors mostly as well.

These kinds of arguments are poor. Yes, Graf did not face as many power baseliner type players as most pros do today. But one can easily inverse the argument and say that Serena doesn't face as many s&v-type players and in general players with variety as Steffie did.

Graf dominated her competition, in her time - that is all that matters. In another era, she would have had a completely different style.

And, no, Serena is not even close to Steffi. Serena is a great competitor who always found a way to raise her game in grand slam events. But she was never as consistently dominant as Steffi.

Serena is bit like a Pete Sampras of the women's game. Shows up in big moments routinely, but isn't always motivated. Steffie in her prime was like Federer in his prime - dominated everywhere, all the time.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

These kinds of arguments are poor. Yes, Graf did not face as many power baseliner type players as most pros do today. But one can easily inverse the argument and say that Serena doesn't face as many s&v-type players and in general players with variety as Steffie did.

Graf dominated her competition, in her time - that is all that matters. In another era, she would have had a completely different style.

And, no, Serena is not even close to Steffi. Serena is a great competitor who always found a way to raise her game in grand slam events. But she was never as consistently dominant as Steffi.

Serena is bit like a Pete Sampras of the women's game. Shows up in big moments routinely, but isn't always motivated. Steffie in her prime was like Federer in his prime - dominated everywhere, all the time.

Fair comparison, though Pete was far more consistent than Serena ever has been. Steffi is greater no doubt, but both are great champions and I think if they played in the same generation, w/ both being consistently healthy and motivated, they both would win their fair share with neither one dominating the other.

 

[Tanya]

These kinds of arguments are poor. Yes, Graf did not face as many power baseliner type players as most pros do today. But one can easily inverse the argument and say that Serena doesn't face as many s&v-type players and in general players with variety as Steffie did.

Graf dominated her competition, in her time - that is all that matters. In another era, she would have had a completely different style.

And, no, Serena is not even close to Steffi. Serena is a great competitor who always found a way to raise her game in grand slam events. But she was never as consistently dominant as Steffi.

Serena is bit like a Pete Sampras of the women's game. Shows up in big moments routinely, but isn't always motivated. Steffie in her prime was like Federer in his prime - dominated everywhere, all the time.

Good analysis, but that isn't what this thread is about.

 

[dominikk1985]

I can't understand how people are hailing either seles or grafs game so much.
both did play great tennis and had great strengths, but also glaring weaknesses. I would say they did benefit by the weak state of womens tennis.

Steffi:
Great athlete for sure. FH and serve is also very good. But slice only BH? Come on, top players need to whack it from both wings. Only being able to attack of one wing is a major weakness!

Monica:
Great angles, early ball striking and consistency. But her second serve was a throw-in/eephus pitch (for americans) and her strokes where ugly two-fisted strokes with limited reach. I mean there is a reason why the two fisted game of both is basically extinct now. also no net game. If two fisted hitting was really the way to go, more players would do it.

Both players were very good and I by no means want to belittle them, but womens tennis has evolved.

compared to those two players justine is a completely new evolution step of womens tennis. Unlike the two she had no weaknesses (apart from her height). She had a flawless game and could do it all.

Serena is not quite as technically sound and an inferior mover, but even she can do much more things than seles/graf (and the entire pre 00s generation). her strokes might not look pretty, but she has great strokes of both wings, a net game and a first AND second serve(one of the few women that can actually kick).

those two players revolutionized womens tennis and brought it to a whole new level. Many young girls try now to match their game (the hard hitting style). you never see a girl emulating seles or graf for a reason!


I would say:
1.justine
2.serena

then a large gap, which will be filled by players of the next generations (which means they also will surpass graf/seles).

 

[TMF]

Fair comparison, though Pete was far more consistent than Serena ever has been. Steffi is greater no doubt, but both are great champions and I think if they played in the same generation, w/ both being consistently healthy and motivated, they both would win their fair share with neither one dominating the other.

You’re assuming Serena will be as fit as Graf, consistent as Graf, motivated as Graf, and play as much as Graf are nothing but "if" and "but". Serena is going to be the same person regardless if she play in any era, and competing against Graf, Martina or anyone else. I don’t think she will be as successful or as dominant as Graf. No way.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Steffi Graf 22
2 Martina Navratilova 18
2 Chris Evert 18
4 Serena Williams 13
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34 (18 )
2 Martina Navrátilová 32 (18 )
3 Steffi Graf 31 (22)
4 Evonne Goolagong 18 (7)
5 Serena Williams 16 (13)
6 Venus Williams 14 (7)
7 Monica Seles 13 (9)
8 Margaret Court 12 (11)
8 Martina Hingis 12 (5)
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12 (8 )

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 92
5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
6 Billie Jean King 67
7 Lindsay Davenport 55
8 Virginia Wade 55
9 Monica Seles 53
10 Hingis 45

Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Chris Evert 260
4 Martina Hingis 209
5 Monica Seles 178
6 Justine Henin * 117
7 Lindsay Davenport 98
8 Serena Williams * 111
9 Amélie Mauresmo 39
10 Dinara Safina * 26

Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf (1) 186
2 Martina Navratilova (1) 156
3 Chris Evert (1) 113
4 Steffi Graf (2) 94
5 Monica Seles (1) 91
6 Martina Navratilova (2) 90
7 Steffi Graf (3) 87
8 Martina Hingis (1) 80
9 Chris Evert (2) 76
10 Martina Hingis (2) 73

Year end No. 1 players
player year
Steffi Graf 8
Martina Navratilova 7
Chris Evert 5
Lindsay Davenport 4
Justine Henin 3
Martina Hingis
Monica Seles
Serena Williams 2
Jelena Jankovic 1

All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593 56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1309 146 89.97
3 Steffi Graf 902 115 88.69
4 Martina Navratilova 1442 219 86.82
5 Monica Seles 595 122 82.98
6 Serena Williams*[1] 462 98 82.5
7 Justine Henin* 503 109 82.18
8 Billie Jean King 695 155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704 165 81.01

Clay court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Chris Evert 316 20 94.05
2 Steffi Graf 273 30 90.1
3 Justine Henin* 122 19 86.52
4 Monica Seles 142 25 85.03
5 Martina Hingis 109 25 81.34
6 Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.12
7 Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80
8 Venus Williams* 127 35 78.4
9 Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.42
10 Conchita Martinez 294 88 76.96

Hard court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Steffi Graf 335 36 90.3
2 Chris Evert 304 37 89.15
3 Martina Navratilova 340 48 87.63
4 Monica Seles 311 59 84.05
5 Serena Williams* 294 57 83.76
6 Justine Henin* 243 53 82.09
7 Kim Clijsters* 256 56 82.05
8 Maria Sharapova* 197 45 81.01
9 Venus Williams* 320 76 80.81
10 Lindsay Davenport 472 115 80.41

Grass court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Martina Navratilova 305 39 88.66
2 Chris Evert 184 25 88.04
3 Venus Williams* 68 10 87.18
4 Serena Williams* 52 8 86.67
5 Steffi Graf 85 15 85
6 Maria Sharapova* 52 10 83.87
7 Justine Henin* 45 10 81.82
8 Jana Novotna 79 21 79
9 Kim Clijsters* 40 11 78.43
10 Tracy Austin 43 12 78.18

Carpet court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Martina Navratilova 516 58 89.9
2 Steffi Graf 189 23 89.2
3 Chris Evert 209 39 84.3
4 Serena Williams* 34 7 82.93
5 Martina Hingis 97 23 80.83
6 Kim Clijsters* 50 13 79.37
= Monica Seles 98 26 79.03
8 Lindsay Davenport 93 27 77.5
9 Tracy Austin 85 25 77.27
10 Venus Williams* 50 17 74.63

Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1309
3 Steffi Graf 902
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
6 Lindsay Davenport 753
7 Conchita Martínez 739
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley[5] 704
9 Billie Jean King 695
10 Gabriela Sabatini 632

Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41

Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Chris Evert 94.9
10 Margaret Court 94.8



Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
6. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
6. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
6. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
6. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
6. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
15. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
15. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
15. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
15. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)

 

[LDVTennis]

Cleary you cannot read--I said her performance in the 07 AO Final. The fact that she struggled so much in the previous stages of the tournament only makes her performance against Sharapova even more remarkable.

You're becoming one of the uglier, rabid trolls around here with your blind Graf zealousness...starting to remind me of Father Marjorie (and no, contrary to what you may think, that is not a compliment...I know how you love to kiss 'her' ass).

Mother Marjorie is funny.

You are boring.

 

[LDVTennis]

I can't understand how people are hailing either seles or grafs game so much.
both did play great tennis and had great strengths, but also glaring weaknesses. I would say they did benefit by the weak state of womens tennis.

Steffi:
Great athlete for sure. FH and serve is also very good. But slice only BH? Come on, top players need to whack it from both wings. Only being able to attack of one wing is a major weakness!

Monica:
Great angles, early ball striking and consistency. But her second serve was a throw-in/eephus pitch (for americans) and her strokes where ugly two-fisted strokes with limited reach. I mean there is a reason why the two fisted game of both is basically extinct now. also no net game. If two fisted hitting was really the way to go, more players would do it.

Both players were very good and I by no means want to belittle them, but womens tennis has evolved.

compared to those two players justine is a completely new evolution step of womens tennis. Unlike the two she had no weaknesses (apart from her height). She had a flawless game and could do it all.

Serena is not quite as technically sound and an inferior mover, but even she can do much more things than seles/graf (and the entire pre 00s generation). her strokes might not look pretty, but she has great strokes of both wings, a net game and a first AND second serve(one of the few women that can actually kick).

those two players revolutionized womens tennis and brought it to a whole new level. Many young girls try now to match their game (the hard hitting style). you never see a girl emulating seles or graf for a reason!


I would say:
1.justine
2.serena

then a large gap, which will be filled by players of the next generations (which means they also will surpass graf/seles).

Do you realize how good Graf's forehand was? We are talking Federer good. We are talking Nadal good. None of Serena's or Henin's shots are/were that good.

With a forehand like that, Steffi didn't need an equally good backhand. Again, see Federer. Even Nadal, who has a good backhand, runs around his backhand to hit forehands. Nadal gets it.

Which brings me to the mystery of why no one emulated Graf. Because you need amazing manual dexterity, agility, and quickness to run around your backhand and play the way Graf did. That's why the men by and large play the way Graf did and the women don't.

Serena has never evolved into the player that Graf was because Serena lacks the quickness and she lacks the manual dexterity to hit her forehand as well as Graf from the full range of positions. It is a comedy of errors just watching Serena try to hit a forehand in the shortcourt. (Indeed, she often takes the easy way out, by rolling it.)

As for Henin, she had lots of weaknesses. Her serve was a disaster. Her strokes became hit and miss because she tinkered with them to add power that was not natural. All of that tinkering eventually played havoc on her body. Graf's strokes never broke down her body.

Steffi even hit her topspin backhand better than Henin. Henin needed the full arm motion because she lacked natural power. If pressed, Steffi could just snap her forearm to create the shot. That's what Federer does as well when pressed.

When you look at Steffi's game closely and see what she could do that Serena and Henin can't, there is really no comparison.

 

[Tanya]

Mother Marjorie is funny.

You are boring.

Mother Marjorie is a tool.

You are also.

 

[Sid_Vicious]

LOL, Graf's forehand is Federer good! Hahahaha. What a joke.

It is like the Federer equivalent in the women's game. Serena probably has the best serve in the women's game, which is the equivalent of Pete's serve in the men's game. You can't just make raw comparisons between the men's and women's game.

 

[LDVTennis]

Mother Marjorie is a tool.

You are also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO_jlXjgxN8

Now that is funny!

 

[Tennisisgod]

These kinds of arguments are poor. Yes, Graf did not face as many power baseliner type players as most pros do today. But one can easily inverse the argument and say that Serena doesn't face as many s&v-type players and in general players with variety as Steffie did.

Graf dominated her competition, in her time - that is all that matters. In another era, she would have had a completely different style.

And, no, Serena is not even close to Steffi. Serena is a great competitor who always found a way to raise her game in grand slam events. But she was never as consistently dominant as Steffi.

Serena is bit like a Pete Sampras of the women's game. Shows up in big moments routinely, but isn't always motivated. Steffie in her prime was like Federer in his prime - dominated everywhere, all the time.

You are absolutely right about that. The best analysis I have seen in the thread. thanks for sharing!

 

[Joe Pike]

I can't understand how people are hailing either seles or grafs game so much.
both did play great tennis and had great strengths, but also glaring weaknesses. I would say they did benefit by the weak state of womens tennis.
...

Yes, just look how in Steffi's and Seles's era players like Jankovic, Ivanovic, Safina and Wozniacki could reach #1!

Oh, wait ...

 

[Raiden]

And, no, Serena is not even close to Steffi. Serena is a great competitor who always found a way to raise her game in grand slam events. But she was never as consistently dominant as Steffi.

Serena is bit like a Pete Sampras of the women's game. Shows up in big moments routinely, but isn't always motivated. Steffie in her prime was like Federer in his prime - dominated everywhere, all the time.

And Venus was a bit like Boris Becker. Under-perform on clay and hard but feels and acts like a fish in the water when treading on grass.

 

[dannykl]

Yes, just look how in Steffi's and Seles's era players like Jankovic, Ivanovic, Safina and Wozniacki could reach #1!

Oh, wait ...

True.Can you image Safina as a top 1 player for half a year during Graf/Seles period? The standard of top 5 players of wta in 2008/9 is absolutely a big joke.

 

[CyBorg]

Fair comparison, though Pete was far more consistent than Serena ever has been. Steffi is greater no doubt, but both are great champions and I think if they played in the same generation, w/ both being consistently healthy and motivated, they both would win their fair share with neither one dominating the other.

Sure. Although I still think that the idea of an imaginary h2h is silly and unproductive. The only thing we have to go by is Graf's play in her era and Serena's play in hers.

 

[CyBorg]

Good analysis, but that isn't what this thread is about.

I've sidestepped all the nonsense, trolling and namecalling.