"If you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough."

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

There's a saying in the high-tech world that "if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough."

To some, this seems counter-intuitive. "Why would I want to fail?" It's not so much that you *want* to fail so much as by trying to be innovative and stretching the boundaries of possibility, you discover things that might lead to success later.

I have a corollary in doubles: if you're not getting passed DTL, you're not controlling the middle enough.

Like many, I used to view getting passed DTL as a death knell: a feeling of "letting your partner down", evil looks from the coach, people giving you helpful advice of "make sure you guard the alley". I'm trying to improve and one way is to become more active at net. One of the simple ways, without involving any movement, is simply to stand closer to the middle to reduce the amount of space the returner has. One poster even said he once put his inner foot on the longitudinal service line [ie almost in the middle of the court] and dared his opponent to try to hit DTL, which the opponent could not do.

There's the "seen" of getting passed DTL but there's also the "unseen" of not controlling the middle more. It puts more of a strain on the server, not only to get a better serve in but to play more shots possibly out of his zone.

I think I might be adjusting to this brave, new world as I just played a match where I threw caution to the wind and started poaching and moving a lot more than normal. I got passed DTL once, got burned on a volley directly at me when I poached but that was balanced by a lot more points won by controlling the middle. And it's hard to quantify how many groundies they missed because they were trying to avoid me at net.

It's sometimes hard to appreciate this watching high-level doubles because the returns are so good.

 

[Captain Ron]

I suggest moving with the serve/return more than changing your starting position.
I like to move to the middle or line with the serve and then I can always start moving the other way timed with the return. It is a fun cat and mouse game. Moving to the middle to get the dtl return is a great tactic. If you know the return will go dtl, it's easy to get back and then any easy put away volley.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I suggest moving with the serve/return more than changing your starting position.
I like to move to the middle or line with the serve and then I can always start moving the other way timed with the return. It is a fun cat and mouse game. Moving to the middle to get the dtl return is a great tactic. If you know the return will go dtl, it's easy to get back and then any easy put away volley.

I'm doing both. And I'm moving forward as the returner is about to strike the ball [the Bryans are particularly good at this]. I was just pointing out that starting out closer to the middle is an easy start for someone looking to up their doubles level because it requires no dynamic movement [ie during the point]. You can just take a half-step towards the middle for starters. Then you can add the other elements you mentioned as you improve.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Good for you.

I can't stand playing with a teammate who thinks his job at the net is to guard the alley, cover the line bla bla bla. They basically take themselves out of the game. The same way, I hate playing with guys who try to hit down the line every other shot. Both are a sign of poor doubles.

 

[dsp9753]

You guys are forgetting something. You stand in the alley so your own partner cant hit you! Played a social doubles game with a much weaker partner. I am usually pretty aggressive with my positioning. Nailed me right in the back of the neck. I decided standing in the alley was the smart decision.

 

[Bionic slice]

S&V-not_dead_yet.....I like your ideas of working the angles and mixing of movements and making the opponent think more and when they need to worry what the net guy might or might not do, it forces return errors or weaker or poor returns. If you and your partner can be synced more...its a great feeling.

I have also been working and thinking about what i can do to make my partner better and help us win or have better chance of winning. I also found playing with multiple partners help me see some flaws in my game i might not see with my regular playing partner. Not every player can consistently hit down the alley if the opposing SERVER can mix his serves. What hurts a server is when his net guy become predictable or the serves become to readable to the returner and when this happens, a dubs team can lose vs another seasoned team. I was guilty of making predicable movements but have worked on this, sometimes playing to close to the net, can hurt you and you might get lobbed if the server serves sloppy, or if the serve lacks enough pace.
I like to talk to my partner and tell him with a signal im poaching so he can be prepared to cover the alley especially if we have been burned on this stop.

Another key...when you are playing on baseline you can attack or place your shots well enough to routinely avoid the net guy and also make it challenging for the back net guy. I think this is very key to also set your net guy up with some easy points.

 

[dave e dave]

There's a saying in the high-tech world that "if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough."

To some, this seems counter-intuitive. "Why would I want to fail?" It's not so much that you *want* to fail so much as by trying to be innovative and stretching the boundaries of possibility, you discover things that might lead to success later.

I have a corollary in doubles: if you're not getting passed DTL, you're not controlling the middle enough.

Like many, I used to view getting passed DTL as a death knell: a feeling of "letting your partner down", evil looks from the coach, people giving you helpful advice of "make sure you guard the alley". I'm trying to improve and one way is to become more active at net. One of the simple ways, without involving any movement, is simply to stand closer to the middle to reduce the amount of space the returner has. One poster even said he once put his inner foot on the longitudinal service line [ie almost in the middle of the court] and dared his opponent to try to hit DTL, which the opponent could not do.

There's the "seen" of getting passed DTL but there's also the "unseen" of not controlling the middle more. It puts more of a strain on the server, not only to get a better serve in but to play more shots possibly out of his zone.

I think I might be adjusting to this brave, new world as I just played a match where I threw caution to the wind and started poaching and moving a lot more than normal. I got passed DTL once, got burned on a volley directly at me when I poached but that was balanced by a lot more points won by controlling the middle. And it's hard to quantify how many groundies they missed because they were trying to avoid me at net.

It's sometimes hard to appreciate this watching high-level doubles because the returns are so good.

There's a saying that also says that you learn nothing in victory
My win to lose ratio is a joke however my game has improved to
The point where I'm getting beaten by much better players now

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

There's a saying that also says that you learn nothing in victory
My win to lose ratio is a joke however my game has improved to
The point where I'm getting beaten by much better players now

I would modify that to read "One is less likely to learn from a victory": it's human nature to sit on our laurels and savor a victory, remembering how well we did something, and to overlook the many times we didn't do that well. One is more likely to focus on shortcomings when one loses. I think a disciplined person can learn something from victory but not everyone is that disciplined; certainly not me. Now where was that laurel? I need somewhere to sit.

 

[Mr.Lob]

You guys are forgetting something. You stand in the alley so your own partner cant hit you! Played a social doubles game with a much weaker partner. I am usually pretty aggressive with my positioning. Nailed me right in the back of the neck. I decided standing in the alley was the smart decision.

True. I almost took a teammates ear off ,who was standing in the middle of the box. This is 3.5-4.0 doubles. I prefer my teammates to stand out of my way when I'm serving. I prefer standing closer to the doubles ally as well. Got hit in the pills once... no fun.

 

[eelhc]

Put it another way... I rather lose a tight 6-4 6-4 match to a slightly better player than win a 6-0 6-1 against a weaker player.

 

[dsp9753]

Get lower? How much does it really hurt? Probably not much. How often does it happen? I don't really care about getting tagged from behind with the serve. It's a non issue

This was probably the first time that actually really hurt. I have been tagged a once a year but I guess they just hit the non painful portions of my body. The part of my neck that was hit was swollen and I could not sleep on that side of my head that night. So yes, it hurt a lot.

Before this day, it was a non issue for me as well. But after experiencing this much pain, I may just pick my partners carefully.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

You guys are forgetting something. You stand in the alley so your own partner cant hit you! Played a social doubles game with a much weaker partner. I am usually pretty aggressive with my positioning. Nailed me right in the back of the neck. I decided standing in the alley was the smart decision.

just start by ducking... and/or have your partner start serving slightly wider than normal.
or get a partner with better control

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Put it another way... I rather lose a tight 6-4 6-4 match to a slightly better player than win a 6-0 6-1 against a weaker player.

you can extend the concept to weaker players also.
if you win 0,1 normally, let's say by pushing from the baseline..
try s&v
try hitting fh winners to end points
etc...

 

[Enga]

I've been nailed in the back of the head a couple times, one time left me deaf in the ear for a minute. The solution? Start off in the alley, and then become active more towards the center.

You WANT people to try and pass you, especially in low level doubles. Them getting a winner is a slight boost for their confidence, yes, but its not something that cant be overcome. I want my opponent to feel overconfident, start going for more, and make more errors. And I definitely want them to try and pass me DTL again, and see if I cant stop them this time.

At this point, I have to ignore my teammates who protest me not guarding the alley. We win way more points when I crowd the center, poach shots, and make the safe cross court shot a lower percentage shot for hem. I just do what I can to make my temammate regain their confidence in me, ideally by playing a nice volley winner off a DTL pass attempt, or a successful poach.

Besides all of that, its just more fun.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Some teammates can't be convinced: even if you win X points by controlling the middle and lose Y points getting passed DTL and X >> Y, they will still remember the Y points lost more than the X points won. Somehow, in their mind, the DTL passers are worth more. It defies logic but then again, a lot of tennis defies logic.

 

[GlennK]

Some teammates can't be convinced: even if you win X points by controlling the middle and lose Y points getting passed DTL and X >> Y, they will still remember the Y points lost more than the X points won. Somehow, in their mind, the DTL passers are worth more. It defies logic but then again, a lot of tennis defies logic.

Exactly. Nothing is more frustrating than having successfully put away 3-4 shots from poaching, getting passed down the line once,and your partner telling you to watch the line better.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Exactly. Nothing is more frustrating than having successfully put away 3-4 shots from poaching, getting passed down the line once,and your partner telling you to watch the line better.

There's actually research in Behavioral Finance that shows people tend to weight a loss more than a gain. So if you lose $x on one investment and win $x on another, you actually suffer from a "deficit" emotionally; they don't balance each other out, no matter what your brokerage statement says.

Of course, if you have to start quoting Kahnemann and Tversky [pioneers of the field; K won a Nobel recently, I think] in a discussion with your doubles partner, it's a lost cause. Either stay in the alley to make your partner happy or play closer to the middle to make you happy and, in either case, decline to play with that person.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

There's actually research in Behavioral Finance that shows people tend to weight a loss more than a gain. So if you lose $x on one investment and win $x on another, you actually suffer from a "deficit" emotionally; they don't balance each other out, no matter what your brokerage statement says.

Of course, if you have to start quoting Kahnemann and Tversky [pioneers of the field; K won a Nobel recently, I think] in a discussion with your doubles partner, it's a lost cause. Either stay in the alley to make your partner happy or play closer to the middle to make you happy and, in either case, decline to play with that person.

+1

I've read many articles that cite that behavior "universal truth" (articles mostly related to management principles, and taking chances (in an entrepreneurial context)), but you're right... folks will tend to fight/work harder to "not lose", than they will to "gain"... or make career/life decisions designed to not lose (vs. gain),... eg. stay with decent paying job they hate, when they could switch jobs for say a 20% decrease, but higher overall upside (happier, higher pay later, etc...).

In gambling I definitely hate losing money way more than I like "winning" money.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

+1

I've read many articles that cite that behavior "universal truth" (articles mostly related to management principles, and taking chances (in an entrepreneurial context)), but you're right... folks will tend to fight/work harder to "not lose", than they will to "gain"... or make career/life decisions designed to not lose (vs. gain),... eg. stay with decent paying job they hate, when they could switch jobs for say a 20% decrease, but higher overall upside (happier, higher pay later, etc...).

In gambling I definitely hate losing money way more than I like "winning" money.

There's actually real-world confirmation of this in Blackjack: when you're dealt a 21 and the dealer has an ace, he will first offer the table if they want to take insurance [a horrible choice]. But this is also the time, if you so choose, to take even money. Meaning, before the dealer peeks at the hole card, you can turn in your 21 for 1:1 payoff. If you don't take even money, the dealer looks at his hole card. If he has a face card, you push. If he does not, you win 3:2.

Simple math shows that it's advantageous to NOT take even money: the extra 3:2 payout beats the times you push. But people are so bummed out over losing a "sure thing" [1:1 vs 0], they inevitably take even money, even though probabilistically it's a bad choice. I always decline. In fact, I'm the only one I know who declines. Showing that I'm not completely data-driven, I will take even money on 3 occasions: I've got an unusually large amount of $ on the table, the count is skewed positive, or it's my last hand of the night and I want to walk away a winner.

/tangent

 

[MisterP]

There isn't much that frustrates me as quickly on a tennis court as having a partner who's hanging out over in the alley irrespective of where the ball is played. He's basically saying "I've got the alley, you've got the remaining 32' of court to cover." It's fearful, timid tennis, and it's one reason I prefer singles.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

There isn't much that frustrates me as quickly on a tennis court as having a partner who's hanging out over in the alley irrespective of where the ball is played. He's basically saying "I've got the alley, you've got the remaining 32' of court to cover." It's fearful, timid tennis, and it's one reason I prefer singles.

Look on the bright side: with your partner camping in the alley, you essentially ARE playing singles…with 2 opponents…and you have to cover the doubles alley. Who could ask for a better challenge? : )

 

[Connors Fan]

I agree with you. My general theory is that if you regularly get beat down the alley, they are better than you and you will get beat anyway. I have my partner play almost exclusively Australian when I serve. Middle pressure trumps everything at my level. Some people get deflated if they get beat down the alley though. My partner visibly gets shaken if I get beat down the alley when she serves, so I lean that way, its bad though, as they then completely focus on her hammering cross courts that break her down. With my men's partner we only play Australian. Middle pressure seems to trump guarding the alley.

 

[Enga]

Its definitely a problem if your partner is the type to get disheartened by a dtl pass. If they lose confidence, the match could be lost later. Sometimes there is no choice but to bow to your teammate's instincts, and hide in the corner.

The funny thing is though, if I camp the line to stop a dtl pass, it sometimes doesnt prevent them from forcing an error from me by driving it at me. I dont feel like camping the line actually raises the chances I'll stop a dtl pass, at least in my case.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I agree with you. My general theory is that if you regularly get beat down the alley, they are better than you and you will get beat anyway. I have my partner play almost exclusively Australian when I serve. Middle pressure trumps everything at my level. Some people get deflated if they get beat down the alley though. My partner visibly gets shaken if I get beat down the alley when she serves, so I lean that way, its bad though, as they then completely focus on her hammering cross courts that break her down. With my men's partner we only play Australian. Middle pressure seems to trump guarding the alley.

Have you ever had "the conversation" with your MXD partner about why, on the whole, your team is wining more points by you being active in the middle vs getting beat DTL? Maybe she's like a lot of people who weight the loss more than the even bigger gain. Some people are open to hearing this. Others will just stare at you like you just grew a second head. It helps to know which type she is before engaging.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Its definitely a problem if your partner is the type to get disheartened by a dtl pass. If they lose confidence, the match could be lost later. Sometimes there is no choice but to bow to your teammate's instincts, and hide in the corner.

The funny thing is though, if I camp the line to stop a dtl pass, it sometimes doesnt prevent them from forcing an error from me by driving it at me. I dont feel like camping the line actually raises the chances I'll stop a dtl pass, at least in my case.

It depends on how close to the middle you're standing. One poster wrote that he put his inner foot [the one closer to the middle] on the longitudinal service line, essentially daring his opponent to go DTL and they couldn't pull it off consistently. Meanwhile, he's cleaning up in the middle. I've never gone to that extreme but I am trying to get further from the alley. I do get passed more DTL but it's more than compensated for by control of the middle as ConnorsFan noted.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Some guys take themselves out of play cos they don't have any confidence in their volleys. In this case, I'd even be tempted to send them back to the baseline all the time, even on my serve. Let them do what they're comfortable doing, rather than trying to force proper doubles on someone who just can't volley.

Some guys I've played with use head heavy rackets and struggle to control the rackethead on aggressive high volleys. But they are better with defensive low volleys, cos the racket wants to tip over in their hand.

These guys shouldn't play at the net, or they should change their equipment.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Some guys take themselves out of play cos they don't have any confidence in their volleys. In this case, I'd even be tempted to send them back to the baseline all the time, even on my serve. Let them do what they're comfortable doing, rather than trying to force proper doubles on someone who just can't volley.

Some guys I've played with use head heavy rackets and struggle to control the rackethead on aggressive high volleys. But they are better with defensive low volleys, cos the racket wants to tip over in their hand.

These guys shouldn't play at the net, or they should change their equipment.

Are these guys playing doubles because that's the only game in town? Sounds like they'd be better off with singles.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Are these guys playing doubles because that's the only game in town? Sounds like they'd be better off with singles.

Doubles is preferred at clubs because it's a more efficient use of courts. Club tennis is very busy around here. Most people have to play doubles if they want organized competition.

 

[tennis tom]

The cliche about playing not to lose is the year Babe Ruth made the record for most home runs--he also had the record for most strike outs.

If you're getting hit by your partner serving you may be standing in the path of his serve, that is too close to the net. You should be two steps in from the service line and then your partner's serve will go over your head and not into it.

Hacker know-nothing-partners are always admonishing you to, "Watch your alley". Ignore them or tell them to go to hell. You want to suck your opponent into hitting down the line. It's a low percentage shot, the net is six inches higher then down the center, the court is shorter then hitting cross-court so there's less margin of error and less margin for error missing wide.

 

[Bionic slice]

I think the key at any level of the players, the team , etc is communication. Hopefully you have time to talk to your partner about a gameplan and some formations before the match. I would love to have a consistent partner to play more formations. Another key is making sure you partner has the ability to serve correctly when running different dubs strategies...its pointless if they don't serve correctly.

I will admit is drives me crazy when my partner cannot adjust if the opposing team is winning down the line consistently (not 1 point here and there) . Often teams will keep the ball away from me and hit to my teammate and when that happens and I cannot be involved in the play or points I was scream, hit one to me