Is hooking on line calls a win-win situation?

[sureshs]

I was watching an open tournament yesterday and unlike previous years, not volunteering, though as you will see, I had to step in. First off, I noticed many of last year's participants were present, including the girl who had tried to hook her opponent in the final. Her father had sat close to the court and urged her to hook, covering his mouth and looking elsewhere. I was there next to him and heard everything. They were back this year and no one cared.

Then the hooking began between two women, one a high school player being targeted by a college coach for recruitment during the tournament, and another a college player. One of them approached me (I don't know why) to find an umpire, and the people at the desk did not seem to realize that the umpires had radios and could be paged. I reminded them, and then one of them showed up. The hooking happened, but the umpire corrected the calls. The high school girl won and walked off after shaking hands.

On the men's side for the lower levels, foot faults were going unnoticed as usual. One guy was screaming after hitting the ball (while it was still in play) and of course there was no repercussion - the burden would be on the opponent to prove that it wasn't a grunt at the time of hitting.

So what is the downside of hooking? By making bad line calls, you put pressure on the opponent by raising her level of tension, and making her go for softer shots out of fear. It is up to you to call a ball out, so you do it. If your opponent summons a ref, stop hooking or do it occasionally and let the ref correct it. And show up the next year again. I don't see any negative consequences. As far as "reputations" go, I think that puts pressure on the honest players too, because they come in knowing what they will face. Moreover, if they make a genuine bad call, they appear really bad for having said something about their opponent. In the case of the girls who asked me for a ref, both wanted the ref - so both were acting as the victims, making it even more fuzzy.

Most of the spectators are not located at the right place to make a correct judgement, or they are not interested.

 

[ProgressoR]

The downside of cheating? If you are not caught, and do not care about cheating, then it is hard to see a downside, unless it is in other spectators catching on and perhaps thinking a bit less of you. Does that matter to the cheater?

 

[dman72]

In tennis outside of the highest levels, there really is no downside to it..the worst repurcussion you face at rec levels is people not wanting to play with you. When you're in a league, the club usually just wants everyones money, so you have to sort out these kind of crap on your own.

To me, it's the single biggest drawback of the sport. In basketball, you can't cheat a guy out of a basket..if it's in, it's in. I've have winners taken away from me numerous times at the league level...balls that are inside lines, serves that my opponent could not possibly see as out.

In casual matches with guys I play, it usually works the other way...we give each other the benefit of the doubt and a lot of close balls get called in. But there's a much different dynamic in leagues, especially with older guys who aren't going to get any better, where winning means much more than playing fairly.

 

[user92626]

The downside of cheating? If you are not caught, and do not care about cheating, then it is hard to see a downside, unless it is in other spectators catching on and perhaps thinking a bit less of you. Does that matter to the cheater?

You're short sighted if you can't see a downside or don't see it matter even not caught. If you're cheating, you're also cheating your own skills, abilities, ie you won't bother to learn and do it correct and you'll fail when it matters.

 

[sureshs]

The downside of cheating? If you are not caught, and do not care about cheating, then it is hard to see a downside, unless it is in other spectators catching on and perhaps thinking a bit less of you. Does that matter to the cheater?

As I said, the spectators were not interested or in a good position to judge, and since both the hooker and the hookee showed great enthusiasm for a ref, the "villain" was not clear.

A spectator commenting on this would be asked to leave by the family of the player complaining to the officials, so as long as the player has a couple of people looking after her back, it is the spectator who would be considered a nuisance. And whatever they think or say, they have zero influence on the player coming back next year. In this case, there was a University woman's coach who was watching, but only now and then. That might be the only downside I can think of.

 

[esgee48]

And the hooking player will pick up the reputation that he/she cheats. If the opposing player knows that in advance, they can ask for an umpire before the match even starts. I've seen it happen in the past.

 

[sureshs]

You're short sighted if you can't see a downside or don't see it matter even not caught. If you're cheating, you're also cheating your own skills, abilities, ie you won't bother to learn and do it correct and you'll fail when it matters.

I frankly don't see this. I don't think that calling a serve out and not playing it is going to make a difference to the skills and abilities of a player who spends a lot of time in other matches and practice. I don't think JMac's playing level suffered because of his antics, do you?

 

[user92626]

In tennis outside of the highest levels, there really is no downside to it..the worst repurcussion you face at rec levels is people not wanting to play with you. When you're in a league, the club usually just wants everyones money, so you have to sort out these kind of crap on your own.

Should it be the other way around? I would think in the highest level if one could cheat and get away with it, he/she would and there's no downside to it. Reasons being the prize is too high and felt "justified" (one's morality is only measured against stake at hand), he/she's not much motivated to accomplish an achievement "the right way". There's no higher arena, level to utilize such skills.

If anything recreational players face more repercussion, relatively. They sacrifice progress for cheating, they risk giving suspicion to others and getting shunned. And probably worst in the list for me is you sell your morality for cheap, ie cheat to won a 10 dollar trophy.

 

[WildVolley]

I agree that cheating can confer advantages to the cheater, which is why it happens. If that's your point, I don't think there's much disagreement.

In the future, all lines can be called by technology which will reduce the current advantages cheaters have.

 

[user92626]

I frankly don't see this. I don't think that calling a serve out and not playing it is going to make a difference to the skills and abilities of a player who spends a lot of time in other matches and practice. I don't think JMac's playing level suffered because of his antics, do you?

Not playing a difficult serve (and (always) resorting to cheating when facing it) is denying your chance to learn to return a difficult serve, you can't see that?

 

[Captain Ron]

I think a biggest drawback to hooking is that they are telling themselves they aren't good enough to win straight up.
If my opponent has to tell themselves over and over again that I am better than them, I like my odds, even if I have to give them a couple points a match

 

[HunterST]

What's the question here? You're asking if cheating your opponent will help you win? Of course it will. I don't think anyone ever refrained from cheating because they thought it would hurt their chance of winning. It's more about honesty/sportsmanship.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Once you get the reputation as a cheater, there's no going back.

 

[WildVolley]

A lot of juniors are cheaters and this extends to the college level. The rule that D1 players play lets is a result of extensive cheating by college players who would just call aces as lets.

 

[Steady Eddy]

To hook or not is just a choice. You can decide if you want to be that sort of player or not. Similarly, you can decide to never leave a tip in every restaurant you use. Just don't go back to the same ones.

Then go grab all the free breath mints.

 

[RetroSpin]

Once you get the reputation as a cheater, there's no going back.

True. There are one or two open level players in my section who have a reputation. Other players will not give them the benefit of the doubt on any close call. If they call it out, they have an immediate argument. The other player meanwhile feels justified in calling balls closely, ie in their own favor, just to protect themselves.

 

[5263]

I guess we are talking about the obvious ones?

because it seems calling is very tough. Watching Tsonga for just a bit the other day I saw 3 issues like this where his opponent thought all 3 were out and even one, the line judge called out and was overruled by hawk eye.
The other 2 were contested by the opponent where he seemed pretty sure they were out....but each was solidly on the line and one marked even inside the line a bit as well.

So calling even at the highest levels is tough....or either they get used to calling a certain way in jrs, then continue to believe in that version, lol.

 

[Tyrus]

The good news is that you were able to get an ump out there to clean up their act. It's not a win-win because you have that on your conscience, sure, you won, but you know what you did.

Usually when no one is around to see it a simple "Are you sure?" will get them to second guess their call...if it's a confident yes, then they made the call, but if it leads them to question themselves, you're in a position to have it re-played.

Of course, not the best advice, but if they're hooking you, hook em back when you can just to see how they react.

"I have never taken the high road, but I tell other people to, 'cause then there's more room for me on the low road."

 

[GuyClinch]

It's lose lose - because if you win and you cheated - you can't be sure you really won - and the other guy will think you are a cheater..

FWIW I have noticed less cheating in NorCal league play (knock on wood).

Pete

 

[LakeSnake]

I think if Suresh is right. If you are the type of person who values wins over honor, cheating will play in your favor. It's like that in most walks of life. As John Stockton said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough." As to whether you should do it, you probably already know if you are that type of person.

 

[LuckyR]

I was watching an open tournament yesterday and unlike previous years, not volunteering, though as you will see, I had to step in. First off, I noticed many of last year's participants were present, including the girl who had tried to hook her opponent in the final. Her father had sat close to the court and urged her to hook, covering his mouth and looking elsewhere. I was there next to him and heard everything. They were back this year and no one cared.

Then the hooking began between two women, one a high school player being targeted by a college coach for recruitment during the tournament, and another a college player. One of them approached me (I don't know why) to find an umpire, and the people at the desk did not seem to realize that the umpires had radios and could be paged. I reminded them, and then one of them showed up. The hooking happened, but the umpire corrected the calls. The high school girl won and walked off after shaking hands.

On the men's side for the lower levels, foot faults were going unnoticed as usual. One guy was screaming after hitting the ball (while it was still in play) and of course there was no repercussion - the burden would be on the opponent to prove that it wasn't a grunt at the time of hitting.

So what is the downside of hooking? By making bad line calls, you put pressure on the opponent by raising her level of tension, and making her go for softer shots out of fear. It is up to you to call a ball out, so you do it. If your opponent summons a ref, stop hooking or do it occasionally and let the ref correct it. And show up the next year again. I don't see any negative consequences. As far as "reputations" go, I think that puts pressure on the honest players too, because they come in knowing what they will face. Moreover, if they make a genuine bad call, they appear really bad for having said something about their opponent. In the case of the girls who asked me for a ref, both wanted the ref - so both were acting as the victims, making it even more fuzzy.

Most of the spectators are not located at the right place to make a correct judgement, or they are not interested.

I have no reason to doubt that the above observations were exactly as stated. But to me, I draw the exact opposite conclusion. Namely, that cheating is a lose, lose situation for the cheater.

First of all, in order to influence the outcome, the match has to be close. In my experience this is going to be a minority of matches, certainly not rare, but well below 50%.

Second, since the best possible outcome of this close match (for the cheater) is to win a close match and have no one suspect him of cheating (keeps his reputation while still cheating). In order to get this outcome, the cheating will have to be very subtle, so subtle that the number of points changed is going to be very small. If he wins big, he would have won anyway, therefore no advantage to the cheater. If he squeeks out a win, he probably influenced the outcome. But it is in a match he clearly could have won without cheating, not much of a gain for him.

Any other outcome is a loss for the cheater: he wins a match he would have won anyway and gets labelled a cheater, clearly an overall negative for the cheater. Worse, he gets labelled a cheater and loses the match, gad zooks! He could sneak the cheating by everyone but still lose the match (no gain for him), or get away with the cheating and win a match he would have won anyway (again no gain for the cheater). The last is the most marginal: he wins a match he would have lost but gets labelled a cheater. To me this is a loss. True, he gets a t shirt or a plastic trophy, but I've got plenty of those as do most on this thread. Rehabbing a crappy reputation is often an impossible task in many areas. So another loss IMO.

 

[Tyrus]

First of all, in order to influence the outcome, the match has to be close. In my experience this is going to be a minority of matches, certainly not rare, but well below 50%.

Just remembered a valuable experience I shared being hooked in practice.

Yes, practice, we talkin' bout practice!

doubles, back and forth set, deuce game, I'm serving. Coach is watching too.

Hit what I think is a BEAUTIFUL slice serve down the T (ad-side)...partner, coach, everyone reacts like I hit an ace...

Returner calls it out...WTF? I begin questioning, so does my partner, returner stands his ground...coach doesn't even say a damn thing...just that there's a lesson in this.

When the match gets tight, be careful when going close to the lines, the probability that those will get called out is much higher, better safe than sorry.

Of course after practice coach tells me the serve was in. Too late but that's the lesson.

 

[LuckyR]

Just remembered a valuable experience I shared being hooked in practice.

Yes, practice, we talkin' bout practice!

doubles, back and forth set, deuce game, I'm serving. Coach is watching too.

Hit what I think is a BEAUTIFUL slice serve down the T (ad-side)...partner, coach, everyone reacts like I hit an ace...

Returner calls it out...WTF? I begin questioning, so does my partner, returner stands his ground...coach doesn't even say a damn thing...just that there's a lesson in this.

When the match gets tight, be careful when going close to the lines, the probability that those will get called out is much higher, better safe than sorry.

Of course after practice coach tells me the serve was in. Too late but that's the lesson.

So what's the lesson for the practice session cheater? Did he gain anything? Nope. Did you (and the coach) lose respect for the guy? Yup. Proves my point...

 

[user92626]

Lucky,

That is way over analyzing.

First of all we would never know how close a match or how big the influence of a perceived cheating has on a match. It could be 5-1 but after a frustrating, perceived cheat the leading guy could lose focus and subsequently the match.

Secondly how often can anyone definitely prove a cheating is occurring and not a overcompetitive, poor call? Many players just want to take the easy road and call their opponents cheaters and hooking. That in a way is poor sportsmanship if not cheating.

 

[LuckyR]

Lucky,

That is way over analyzing.

First of all we would never know how close a match or how big the influence of a perceived cheating has on a match. It could be 5-1 but after a frustrating, perceived cheat the leading guy could lose focus and subsequently the match.

Secondly how often can anyone definitely prove a cheating is occurring and not a overcompetitive, poor call? Many players just want to take the easy road and call their opponents cheaters and hooking. That in a way is poor sportsmanship if not cheating.

You bring up some good points. Many I took into account with my original post, others I'll address here.

First of all, if the cheater's opponent has such a weak Mental game that they lose a match they were up 5-1 after a single cheating call, then as it turns out, the cheater probably didn't have to cheat. Their opponent likely would have folded with mere gamesmanship. This fictional opponent is extremely rare, I agree, but you brought it up.

Your second point is very true. In fact I used that logic (that a subset of cheating calls are subtle and could legitimately be labelled a bad call) when I mentioned that in order to get away with it, the numbers of points changed by subtle cheating would be very small, since most points aren't decided by very close line calls.

Your comment that some folks get labelled cheaters when they aren't even cheating is true enough, but a totally different topic that I didn't attempt to cover.

 

[Tyrus]

There actually was no hard feelings over the call...it was practice after all...and this was more of a down 4-5 score than being up 5-1...

But the returner who called it just further proved the point that it is their call to make. Which is true...perception is part of the game...was it cheating? maybe..was it a bad call? Also maybe...did he legit believe it was out? Most likely...and in that situation if you feel like it, you stand your ground..."It looked out to me."

The awkward situation is being their partner...and I've been there before, partner makes a questionable call, they look to you. Last thing you want to do is throw your own team under the bus but you have to make the right call. Usually I play the "he/she made the call" or "I didn't see it."

 

[sundaypunch]

I have definitely seen cheating in USTA junior matches. In some cases it was opportunistic cheating like good calls until set point then a second serve that was 2" inside the line gets called out to end the set. I have also seen some very comical cheating. In one G16 match it started early in the first set with both girls getting mad at the blatant bad calls. Anything remotely close to the line was called out. They finally called an umpire over who watched for two games. He then lectured them that each was making good calls and even played some balls that were out. As soon as he left both went back to calling anything close to the line out, lol.