Keep the ball in and wait for short ball? Or...

[jdubbs]

Try to move my opponent around?

I played a good match (4.0) this weekend, and my opponent kept the ball deep with medium pace and spin, and waited for the short ball to crush winners. I countered by hitting deep as well, and coming into net on really deep balls, especially to his backhand. My serve let me down and I narrowly lost in the first set.

In the 2nd I wanted to see if I could really crush winners, and quickly lost the 2nd.

We had some long rallies where neither of us really tried to hit corners. We weren't pushing, but hitting the ball deep and with some medium pace. I tend to get tired of this strategy and go for my shots more, and he was content to just keep the ball in. He won, so now I'm wondering if that should be my strategy, just keep the ball in, but with some pace, and wait to crush a short ball.

My fitness isn't great, so it's hard for me to have 20 shot rallies, but maybe just get my fitness better and keep the ball in.
Any thoughts?

 

[LeeD]

I've always been in your boat, ever since 1976.
All it depends on is whether you CAN hit forcing shots/winners from the baseline, or does the opponent run down most of your shots and spots you coming in or staying back?
The thought process IF you want to go for your shots is.... you PASS him with normal passing shots as if he was at net. Don't look to see if he's back or recovered, moving forwards or waiting for you, YOU HIT A PASSING SHOT.
The sharp CC or fast DTL is enough to force any situation, even if your opponent is back at the baseline. Just don't hit up the middle.
For hitting consistent, I'll always try it on return games, at least 6 shots. then realize my patience is tested, and go for a passing shot.
Don't think of that shot as a baseline winner....that takes BIG shots with great placement. Just pretend your opponent is at net ready to volley away anything he can reach, so you have to pass him clean.

 

[johndagolfer]

I am in pretty similar thoughts with Lee.

It call comes down to what you feel you can hit the majority of the time. Playing medium pace balls are good only up until the point you face someone like you did. Either they are better at fitness or movement or something. At that point you either have to go for more on your shots to try to or your have to go for more corners.

 

[dominikk1985]

when you consider that even top pros (including prime federer and nadal) ht around 50% short balls ( balls that land 4 feet behind service line or shorter) attacking on long balls is a pretty stupid tactic.

however that doesn't mean you only have to lob the ball in before. If you keep the ball deep and also hit some angles you will get even more short balls to attack. Being patient doesn't mean just push it in. play nice paced balls with good spin and height (2-3 foot net clearence).

but learning which ball to attack is very important.

 

[johndagolfer]

when you consider that even top pros (including prime federer and nadal) ht around 50% short balls ( balls that land 4 feet behind service line or shorter) attacking on long balls is a pretty stupid tactic.

however that doesn't mean you only have to lob the ball in before. If you keep the ball deep and also hit some angles you will get even more short balls to attack. Being patient doesn't mean just push it in. play nice paced balls with good spin and height (2-3 foot net clearence).

but learning which ball to attack is very important.

I think the problem for the OP here though was that his opponent was better at playing this game. Sure he was getting short balls, but I think his opponent was giving him less to work with than he was receiving.

In that case you may have to do what you might not ordinarily do. You might have to attack those mid court balls or go a foot or two closer to the line to try and draw more of these short balls.

 

[jdubbs]

I think the problem for the OP here though was that his opponent was better at playing this game. Sure he was getting short balls, but I think his opponent was giving him less to work with than he was receiving.

In that case you may have to do what you might not ordinarily do. You might have to attack those mid court balls or go a foot or two closer to the line to try and draw more of these short balls.

He was a bit better at it, true, but I compensated by coming into net more and putting away balls. My whole mentality is "attack" at all times, perhaps to my detriment against a grinder. I need to grind back, and perhaps that means getting the ball in more and not trying to pain corners as much.

The mid court balls I really couldn't do that much with, not generate enough pace on. I would try to move forward but he would hit high and long with enough pace to drive me back.

One thing I did really well was get to all his drop shots, so there's that.

I think what I'll do is really work on my fitness and grind games out. Just have to watch I don't get into a pushing match, as I get bored with 20 shot rallies and stop moving my feet.

 

[TennezSport]

My 0.2........

My whole mentality is "attack" at all times, perhaps to my detriment against a grinder. I need to grind back, and perhaps that means getting the ball in more and not trying to pain corners as much.

The key thing against a steady grinder in to mix it up, if you can. Getting in better shape will help with defense (which you should do), but that is his game so don't play into it. Going on the constant attack will only give him a target and allow him/her to get grooved, along with the possibility of you making more errors. Try to determine if he is better moving side to side or up and back and mix it up with the shot selection to get him off rhythm and out of his groove. Then attack when he is in the most uncomfortable place eight up or far back in the court. Good luck

Cheers, TennezSport

 

[skiracer55]

There has to be something...

Try to move my opponent around?

I played a good match (4.0) this weekend, and my opponent kept the ball deep with medium pace and spin, and waited for the short ball to crush winners. I countered by hitting deep as well, and coming into net on really deep balls, especially to his backhand. My serve let me down and I narrowly lost in the first set.

In the 2nd I wanted to see if I could really crush winners, and quickly lost the 2nd.

We had some long rallies where neither of us really tried to hit corners. We weren't pushing, but hitting the ball deep and with some medium pace. I tend to get tired of this strategy and go for my shots more, and he was content to just keep the ball in. He won, so now I'm wondering if that should be my strategy, just keep the ball in, but with some pace, and wait to crush a short ball.

My fitness isn't great, so it's hard for me to have 20 shot rallies, but maybe just get my fitness better and keep the ball in.
Any thoughts?

...every player doesn't like, so figure that out and give him lots of it. You talk about "keeping the ball in" and "crushing winners" as if they are the only choices. There's a middle path which is eliciting errors from your opponent. Remember, the score doesn't know if you hit a winner or he dumped the ball into the net...just that you won the point. So the guy hits deep and with medium pace, if you keep handing him the same thing, he got what he came for, because it sounds like you eventually gopher up a short ball, and he's off to the races. Guys like this generally don't like moving forward, so give him some short, junky slice angles and see how much he likes that. The guys has your number in baseline rallies...so bring him into the net with some short, junky balls and pass him or lob over him. Try serving and volleying...baseline warriors generally don't like that kind of stuff. If it's your strength versus his and he's coming out on top, ya gotta find a Plan B...

 

[LuckyR]

Try to move my opponent around?

I played a good match (4.0) this weekend, and my opponent kept the ball deep with medium pace and spin, and waited for the short ball to crush winners. I countered by hitting deep as well, and coming into net on really deep balls, especially to his backhand. My serve let me down and I narrowly lost in the first set.

In the 2nd I wanted to see if I could really crush winners, and quickly lost the 2nd.

We had some long rallies where neither of us really tried to hit corners. We weren't pushing, but hitting the ball deep and with some medium pace. I tend to get tired of this strategy and go for my shots more, and he was content to just keep the ball in. He won, so now I'm wondering if that should be my strategy, just keep the ball in, but with some pace, and wait to crush a short ball.

My fitness isn't great, so it's hard for me to have 20 shot rallies, but maybe just get my fitness better and keep the ball in.
Any thoughts?

You know yourself best but you don't seem to have the personality type to play retriever and seem to be better suited to a power baseliner or greater level of aggressiveness. For pure win percentage probably an all-court game would be best but you would have to spend a large part of match time adjusting your strategy and I don't know if you are into it that much.

 

[jdubbs]

...every player doesn't like, so figure that out and give him lots of it. You talk about "keeping the ball in" and "crushing winners" as if they are the only choices. There's a middle path which is eliciting errors from your opponent. Remember, the score doesn't know if you hit a winner or he dumped the ball into the net...just that you won the point. So the guy hits deep and with medium pace, if you keep handing him the same thing, he got what he came for, because it sounds like you eventually gopher up a short ball, and he's off to the races. Guys like this generally don't like moving forward, so give him some short, junky slice angles and see how much he likes that. The guys has your number in baseline rallies...so bring him into the net with some short, junky balls and pass him or lob over him. Try serving and volleying...baseline warriors generally don't like that kind of stuff. If it's your strength versus his and he's coming out on top, ya gotta find a Plan B...

You hit the nail on the head. He was extremely uncomfortable at net, but I was afraid to hit too many drop shots to bring him in because, well, I don't hit very good drop or sharply angled shots, so that's an area I need to work on.

He had a great return of serve, so I would have gotten crushed trying to S&V.

 

[mightyrick]

Try to move my opponent around?
We had some long rallies where neither of us really tried to hit corners. We weren't pushing, but hitting the ball deep and with some medium pace. I tend to get tired of this strategy and go for my shots more, and he was content to just keep the ball in. He won, so now I'm wondering if that should be my strategy, just keep the ball in, but with some pace, and wait to crush a short ball.

When I get into a rally like this (where we both are just baselining back and forth waiting for the unforced error), that is when I do *anything* other than try to hit a winner.

Basically, do anything to change the rhythm and cause your opponent to have to adjust. I can't tell you how many unforced errors I've caused by doing something as simple as changing the pace of the ball -- and nothing else.

I might hit a deep (but safe) angle. I might hit a wide dropshot. I might hit a forehand slice. I might change the pace of the ball. All of those are great rhythm breakers.

None of them require a low-percentage hit such as a hard forehand winner.

 

[Ajtat411]

If a strategy doesn't work, you have to change it up until you see a weakness. Otherwise, just be ready to shake the guys hand.

Forcing winning shots is never a good idea because you are on the losing side of the percentages. Also, if that's not your game, then you will likely not be successful.

If it's a game of atrition, then you just need to hang in the points. If you're physical outmatched, then you need to construct the points in a way that ends it faster. Usually this is where the serve/volley play comes in.

It sounds like you didn't really try S/V, but figured that you opponnet had a good return based on his regular return. It doesn't mean his returns would be as effective if he knew that you were coming into net. There is good deal of pressure you put on your opponnet when you show them that you can serve/volley well. They end up going for more and you get shorter points. On the other hand, if you have a bad first volley, you're either passed or lobbed for a winner. Either way though, the points will end faster.

 

[skiracer55]

some follow up thoughts...

You hit the nail on the head. He was extremely uncomfortable at net, but I was afraid to hit too many drop shots to bring him in because, well, I don't hit very good drop or sharply angled shots, so that's an area I need to work on.

He had a great return of serve, so I would have gotten crushed trying to S&V.

...give yourself some credit. You did the best you could, on the day, and you lost to a guy who maybe had stronger tactics. Doesn't mean he's a better player.

Yep, work on drop shots and angled shots, but another play with somebody who doesn't want to come in is just to hit a little short...as in around the service line. A lot of time, baseline warriors will come in to the service line, hit a ball...and then back up. Next, of course, you hit another ball to the service line, and your opponent becomes a human yo-yo. There's a strategy called "toying your opponent around the court", where you don't try to hit him off the court, you try to make him run around like a little doggy until he falls over from exhaustion and frustration.

The guy may have had a great return, but usually that's only the case if...once again...you give him what he likes. Baseline warriors tend to love to hit balls that kick up in their strike zones, so hit some wide slices to the forehand and see how much he likes that. Baseliners also tend to like balls hit out wide, because then they can extend and crack the ball. So serve right at him, specifically at the right hip, which is the hardest spot from which to generate anything decent on a return...if you don't see it coming. Most of all, use lots of variety on the serve. Never give him the same look...on the serve, that is. Come in relentlessly, and good things will happen. Remember, you're going to get passed some if you come in. Pat Rafter, volleyer extraordinaire, once won a match where he came to net some ridiculous number of times, like 111. Of those 111 points, he won one more point than he lost at the net...and he won the match...

 

[jdubbs]

Thanks for the input guys.

Interestingly enough, I played a practice match yesterday with another 4.0, and was trying to play the patient game with him, constructing points.

I quickly fell behind 3-1 in the first set. He was angling shots and being more aggressive, and I was hitting to the middle of the court. So I started to try to really dictate points instead, and this worked beautifully, as I won the next 5 games to take the set.

His shots were right in my zone, low and with pace, but without a lot of spin, easy for me to get low on and really hammer. It's the deep, clay court-like deep spins that give me issues, because it's hard to dictate points as much there.

I've hit the gym hard this week and ramping up the cardio so hopefully I can draw on this strength reserve to win those types of rallies.

I'm mixed on my thoughts on S&V, but I probably do need to incorporate it more. If I see an opponent starting to "bunt" his returns back, I'll use it.

A lot of the problems I had really was on my serve. I've worked on it, and come up with a less hard, but more accurate, first serve. I think I should really just get the ball in with some pace and not go for absolute crushers on my serve. I'm also going to take some video for more feedback, which will make Dozu happy.

 

[Ajtat411]

^I think if you have a reliable second serve that is not easily attackable, then I would go for the 1st serve bombs. Holding serve will be so much easier if you can get free/easy points. Also puts tremendous pressure on your opponnets service games.

If your 2nd serve is not as reliable and is attackable, I would bump up the 1st serve percentages and focus on hitting specific spots on the box to maximize the effect of your lower speed 1st serve. And then sprinkle in a few flat hard serves when you feel confident or can afford to take the risk.

 

[skiracer55]

Thanks for the input guys.

Interestingly enough, I played a practice match yesterday with another 4.0, and was trying to play the patient game with him, constructing points.

I quickly fell behind 3-1 in the first set. He was angling shots and being more aggressive, and I was hitting to the middle of the court. So I started to try to really dictate points instead, and this worked beautifully, as I won the next 5 games to take the set.

His shots were right in my zone, low and with pace, but without a lot of spin, easy for me to get low on and really hammer. It's the deep, clay court-like deep spins that give me issues, because it's hard to dictate points as much there.

I've hit the gym hard this week and ramping up the cardio so hopefully I can draw on this strength reserve to win those types of rallies.

I'm mixed on my thoughts on S&V, but I probably do need to incorporate it more. If I see an opponent starting to "bunt" his returns back, I'll use it.

A lot of the problems I had really was on my serve. I've worked on it, and come up with a less hard, but more accurate, first serve. I think I should really just get the ball in with some pace and not go for absolute crushers on my serve. I'm also going to take some video for more feedback, which will make Dozu happy.

...sounds good. I have this theory that some big kid is going to come along and say "Lemme see...everybody out there is doing the 'big serve, big forehand, that is all you need to know' thing, think I'll try to distance myself from the pack by doing something different. Wonder what this S&V is all about?" So he goes out and wins Wimbledon and everybody starts talking about how this dude just discovered a game-changing paradigm, which is coming to the net.

Remember, S&V has two parts, where the second part is the volleying. The serve alone isn't going to do it, and the volley alone isn't going to do it. Even if you don't do it all the time, it's worth having. If you pull it out even 3 or 4 times during a match, then you opponent has to be looking for it as opposed to just whaling away on the returns and assuming you are only coming to the net to shake hands at the end of the match.

Second, it doesn't have to be S&V. You don't like high-bouncing clay court like balls on the baseline? Fine, I don't either, which is why after just a little bit of that nonsense, I'll figure out a way to jerk the other guy around, hit an approach and come on in. It's okay to have "power baseliner" as your A game. When that doesn't work, however, you need to have a backup plan.

Additionally, you're talking about fitness as an issue. Yep, if you're going to spend all day on the baseline exchanging heavy artillery with your opponent, you need to be Speedy Gonzalez...for a couple or three hours. I'm pretty quick, and I have pretty good stamina. But I'm a Chronologically Challenged player who can be out-athleted by the 20somethings I have to plan in Men's Open.

When I can, therefore, I try to play what I call "one, two, three" tennis. That is, my prototypical point is something like this: I'm up 40-15 on my serve, time to slice a first serve out wide to the forehand, follow it in to net, looking for the backhand volley which I can knife cross-court, look for a forehand volley or overhead into the open court for the winner...end of story.

What happens if I get a return to my forehand instead for my first volley? I just have to be quick enough to read the play and make the adjustment. What happens if my first serve isn't doing so well, or the guy has a tough return? Maybe I have to play 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tennis.

Shortening points, IMHO, is a good thing. You're taking control of the situation, you're trying to drive it to a winner by you or an error by your opponent as opposed to just exchanging random balls and hoping something good happens. And you're hitting fewer shots per rally to do it, which has two beneficial side effects: (1) Potentially, you're using less energy and (2) you're giving yourself fewer chances to make errors. I always believe I can pretty much do damage, or at least hang in there, for a 5 to 8 shot rally, max. After that...well, my chances aren't so good...

 

[pushing_wins]

Try to move my opponent around?

I played a good match (4.0) this weekend, and my opponent kept the ball deep with medium pace and spin, and waited for the short ball to crush winners. I countered by hitting deep as well, and coming into net on really deep balls, especially to his backhand. My serve let me down and I narrowly lost in the first set.

In the 2nd I wanted to see if I could really crush winners, and quickly lost the 2nd.

We had some long rallies where neither of us really tried to hit corners. We weren't pushing, but hitting the ball deep and with some medium pace. I tend to get tired of this strategy and go for my shots more, and he was content to just keep the ball in. He won, so now I'm wondering if that should be my strategy, just keep the ball in, but with some pace, and wait to crush a short ball.

My fitness isn't great, so it's hard for me to have 20 shot rallies, but maybe just get my fitness better and keep the ball in.
Any thoughts?

there is no "crushing" at this level

 

[LeeD]

I think, "crushing" is in the eye of the beholder.
To a 2.7 newbie, a hard hit 90 mph forehand is "CRUSHED".
To a 7.0 moneymaker, a hard hit 90 mph forehand is the least unexpected thing when playing his peers.

 

[jdubbs]

"crushing" to me is trying to hit a shot that my opponent either won't get a racket on or will enable me to hit an easy winner on the next shot.

 

[tennisdad65]

play the %... i.e. wait for the short ball and get to the net. Very few 4.5s and below can hit outright winners from the baseline consistently when the other guy is also on the baseline.. If they could, they would be 5.5s or better

 

[escii_35]

Sounds like my match yesterday. No strats were giving me free points and he was not blowing me off the court so it came down to tossing tactics out the door and justoutplaying him with my A game. Move the ball around with lots of redirection, go big on approach shots, S&V on the add side some for flavor and stay on balance. I guess this is what the pros mean by "just play my game."

 

[J_R_B]

I guess I am in the "hit deep and wait for the short ball" crowd, but I am always trying to hit as penetrating a shot that I can hit and keep in the court, so I am trying to set up the short ball to put away. If I am playing someone who plays like me and doesn't give me anything to attack, then I get into 20 shot rallies quite frequently. I'm not trying to push, but if the shots I'm getting are deep and penetrating, then I have to keep hitting fairly safe shots to keep the ball in play.

I do try to move him corner to corner, though, too.

 

[skiracer55]

Yep, that's an interesting one...

Sounds like my match yesterday. No strats were giving me free points and he was not blowing me off the court so it came down to tossing tactics out the door and justoutplaying him with my A game. Move the ball around with lots of redirection, go big on approach shots, S&V on the add side some for flavor and stay on balance. I guess this is what the pros mean by "just play my game."

...and it kind of reflects what I said earlier:

- First, ya gotta have an A game. I'm not gonna tell you what that should be, go look at my posts in "On NTRP", and what I'll say is that your style of play chooses you, not vice versa. If you're a power baseliner, or an S&Ver, or whatever, you have to go into every match believing that it's your way or the highway. Once again, Pat Rafter, premier S&V artist, once won a match where he went to the net in triple figures, but only won one more point at the net than he lost. Important statistic: he won the match...

So the sermon there is, if you don't know what your A game is, figure it out, quickly, then figure out how to maximize it, then start every match believing your A game is going to win for you.

- However...if your A game isn't working..."Now what, Lieutenant?" ...as we used to say in the military. You have two choices (a) Punch out, and get off the court as quickly as possible or (b Find another way. What that usually means is being a warrior, and grinding out every point, including Playing ugly, if necessary. This isn't a "What strokes should I be using?" thing, it's about being physically and mentally tough. Are you ready for that? If not...get ready.

- It's a tennis match. Here, we're probably not talking about the Wimbledon Men's Finals, we're probably talking about...yet another NTRP League Match. I'm not dissing "yet another NTRP League Match", I'm just asking you to take it in perspective. You have two possible outcomes:

- You win the match. Hooray for you...did you get an automatic qualifier into this year's Wimbledon? No? I didn't think so...

- You lose the match. Result: You don't get taken out and shot, your wife probably doesn't leave you, you probably have a job again tomorrow (Whoopeee!) so you can go back and play yet another tennis match.

Let's contrast that with mywinter Old Guys sport, Masters Alpine Ski Racing. Three weekends ago, I was at the 2011 Masters National DH Championships at Ski Cooper, CO. Tim, my teammate and and running buddy, wasn't there because...even though he skied great and won his class the two weekends before, in between, somebody came out of the woods one day when he was free skiing, hit him, and he wound up with a fractured femur and destroyed left hip. A 5 hour operation later, he's still alive and will probably be able to hike again this summmer...but he'll never ski, let alone ski race again.

So I go back for the Nationals with another one of my teammates, young guy (compared to me) in his mid 40s, first year on the circuit, but already wants to win, in a big way. Last day of training, we're both trying to push the envelope, we both go out on the 3rd bump. scare the crap out of ourselves. Next day, for the National Championships...I want to win...I'm only a second off the podium...but I stand up, stroke it, and wind up 9th.

Not that that's any guarantee...a guy from California does the same thing, winds up in the net with broken leg, and that's the end of his next two seasons. Mike, my teammate, hammers it, and is on the podium...maybe has the whole thing won...until two gates before the finish, where he....according to the Ski Patrol report, and we both agree...relaxes, just slightly and...winds up upside down, at 70 mph, and crashes, separating his left shoulder, also incurring a compound tib/fib of his right leg, a compromised tibial plateau of his right leg, a blown patellar tendon in his right leg, and a blown ACL in his right leg. Worst injury I've ever seen, but...he'll be up and running again next winter.

Now...what was it you were saying about how tough tennis matches are?

 

[dozu]

Now...what was it you were saying about how tough tennis matches are?

gravity is a b1tch.

 

[NLBwell]

Skiracer - When I think of the crazy things I've done skiing at high speed and never gotten badly hurt - and yet I screwed up my achillies just slightly twisting my foot, broke my foot catching my toe on a tennis court, broke my foot jumping over a street curb, and tore my knee cartilage just stepping into a volley - I'm completely amazed.

 

[skiracer55]

You have a point...

Skiracer - When I think of the crazy things I've done skiing at high speed and never gotten badly hurt - and yet I screwed up my achillies just slightly twisting my foot, broke my foot catching my toe on a tennis court, broke my foot jumping over a street curb, and tore my knee cartilage just stepping into a volley - I'm completely amazed.

..I was waaay over the top on that last post. Sorry, y'all. I sometimes get overheated to make a point...I'll cool it, I promise...