Kick serve - How do you brush?

[toly]

don't understand what you said there. compensate for what?

 

[Cheetah]

where the swing direction for kick/twist serve in that diagram?

 

[toly]

where the swing direction for kick/twist serve in that diagram?

They are between flat/topspin and slice swing directions.

 

[Cheetah]

can you draw it in?

 

[LeeD]

Your diagrams are two dimensional.
A twist serve adds the 3rd dimension, the UPWARDS part of the swing, to the equation.

 

[toly]

can you draw it in?

 

[pvaudio]

The toss is key...get the ball arching back over your head. During your squat down motion push your hip out and when stroking across the back of the ball think of it like a clock face and hit from the 8 to the 2.

I see many people hitting "what they feel is their kick serve" yet they toss it in the same spot as their flat serve...so all they really hit is a slice serve.


like in this video at 1:24 if his toss came down with out it hitting the ball it would land on his forehead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3H-ipLybRs

they way I view it is I make a toss that comes toward my face on it's downward path and my reflex is to swat it away before it hits me. That and I have a really good view of the edge of the racquet brushing up the side of the ball...so much I can normally spot a nice little puff of fuzz (on newer balls) just as I pronate thru the ball.

I hit a kick, topspin and flat serve on the same toss laterally. For the flat serve, the toss moves forward a few inches and that's it. For the slice, the toss is in the same spot as the flat, but the swing path is different.

 

[Cheetah]

I think you forgot twist/kick swing direction still

 

[Cheetah]

I hit a kick, topspin and flat serve on the same toss laterally. For the flat serve, the toss moves forward a few inches and that's it. For the slice, the toss is in the same spot as the flat, but the swing path is different.

Does your kick serve to ad side kick to the right?

 

[Orion3]

#46 doesn't look like a kick serve - are already very extended. From that position, I can't see how he could hit 'up' enough through contact, to make it kick.

 

[Cheetah]

#46 doesn't look like a kick serve - are already very extended. From that position, I can't see how he could hit 'up' enough through contact, to make it kick.

I agree. Not a kick. Too much pronation before contact and he's not facing the side. Plus his left arm is not tucked under the chest which helps the cartwheel motion and prevents the body from rotating towards the net. All players that can kick (especially twist) will keep the left arm under the chest.

 

[sureshs]

Toly are you saying slice serves have more of a swing out wide than kick serves? I don't see that.

 

[LeeD]

In relation to the target, both slice and twists seem to have about the same out wide swing.
But twist has an upward component, added to the out wide.
Played 3 sets of doubles today, hit maybe 4 twists total, none bouncing as high as the chin. Drizzly, moist courts, 57 degrees, old flat Dunlops. Old flat player too.

 

[toly]

Third Dimension

Your diagrams are two dimensional.
A twist serve adds the 3rd dimension, the UPWARDS part of the swing, to the equation.

Here are two examples of the idealized tennis serve: topspin and slice. Everything between them would be some kind of kick serve.

So, type of the serve is mostly defined by wrist ulnar deviation and arm orientation during impact. If racquet longitude axis is horizontal, we can build pure topspin. If it is vertical, we can create pure slice. :shock:

 

[toly]

Toly are you saying slice serves have more of a swing out wide than kick serves? I don't see that.

I think this is obvious. The slice serve usually creates larger sidespin than kick serve. On condition that in both cases the speed of the ball is the same, the ball curves to the left more. So, to compensate the Magnus effect we should swing more to the right. Just change direction of the Target Plane.

 

[Cheetah]

...obviously wrong that is.
no way.

slice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7ElXIh_V4c&feature=channel&list=UL
kick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTwCys9VkLQ&feature=relmfu

edit: fixed the slice serve link

 

[Cheetah]

Here are two examples of the idealized tennis serve: topspin and slice. Everything between them would be some kind of kick serve.

So, type of the serve is mostly defined by wrist ulnar deviation and arm orientation during impact. :shock:

picture on the right is a kick serve not a slice serve. and the ulnar deviation for a kick / twist occurs when the racquet is at 11 oclock behind the body. not at 3oclock as you have there. and the body is not facing the fence on a slice serve as you have pictured on the right. in fact both of those serves are kick serves. the one on the left is not a straight topspin serve. unless you are ignoring the body and are just trying to show racquet movement.
and since both of those pictures are actually for a kick you can see as looking from left pic to right pic the arm is moving sideways towards the side fence.

 

[Cheetah]

actually you copy/cut/move/pasted the arms on those pics right? upon further inspection the image on the right is not possible haha. nice job.

 

[toly]

Here is nice video of Nadal slice serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLU5PB44tc.
I copied frame around 0.00.13.

He tilted left arm to the left, that’s why the racquet longitude axis is almost vertical and he was able to hit strong slice serve, not kick serve.

If the racquet longitude axis is vertical, the wrist ulnar deviation creates only horizontal linear speed and swing the racquet from 9:00 o’clock to 3:00 o’clock (for righty), which makes sidespin. So, right picture in post 67 demonstrate ideal positions of the arm and wrist for slice serve, not kick serve. The black arrow shows direction of the brushing motion.:evil:

 

[Cheetah]

The brushing action for a slice is 9-3 or some variation of that. The arm doesn't swing 9-3 for a slice serve. It goes forward into the court. And also most people hit the slice on the outside right of the ball so it doesn't even make contact at 9. You can see this is the nadal frame you just posted. He hits the outside of the ball. A kick serve is hit on the inside of the ball.
Inside... as in swing left to right towards the side fence.

You didnt address my post #66 where I posted vids of slice vs kick. No comment on that?

 

[toly]

You didnt address my post #66 where I posted vids of slice vs kick. No comment on that?

His kick serve is OK. I have some uncertainty about this player slice serve.
Here is picture of his slice serve.

The ball doesn't curve to the left. He just strikes flat serve into left corner of the box. So, there is something wrong.

Next pictures show his and Serena Williams slice serves arms actions about impact.

Serena straightens out her right arm long before impact. She applies elbow flexion earlier than this player. Her elbow brakes and due to the inertia the racquet starts rotating very fast by using wrist ulnar deviation.

In first frame of the left picture his elbow is bent and there is no automatic wrist ulnar deviation activity. He could use this motion by applying hand muscles, but he doesn’t. That’s why he hits flat serve.

See also my article in thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610.

 

[sureshs]

Hey toly no way kick and slice serves have same amount of out-wide action. In the kick serve, the hand also finishes much more wider out, let alone the swing is also more parallelish to the baseline.

Are you confusing top-slice serve with kick serve?

 

[LeeD]

Who says a wide serve HAS to be a slice? Why not flat? If goes 30 mph faster, for one thing.
So what if Serena slices her wide serves?
Player in red shirt has a great wide flat serve, that few will return AND get into position for the next ball. Look where that ball goes by the time it get's near the baseline.

 

[toly]

Hey toly no way kick and slice serves have same amount of out-wide action. In the kick serve, the hand also finishes much more wider out, let alone the swing is also more parallelish to the baseline.

Are you confusing top-slice serve with kick serve?

IMO top-slice serve = kick serve.

At the moment of contact longitude axis of the racquet should have 45° relative to the ground and arm has to be straight and near to vertical.

What are your definitions of these terms?

 

[LeeD]

We should add TWIST serve, the American Twist, in addition to top/slice, slice, and flat serves. That would be four so far.
We can leave out the reverse serve, the underspin serve, and the poop ball serves.

 

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Toly
The ball doesn't curve to the left. He just strikes flat serve into left corner of the box.

That serve is not a flat serve. :???: It's a slice serve motion and it does curve to the left. And then it also curves after it bounces. It's just not a huge curve.

Originally Posted by Toly
There is also the wrist ulnar deviation, which rotates the racquet in plane perpendicular to target plane. If the wrist ulnar deviation is very fast, it forces the arm to change its direction and move toward side fence.

Her elbow brakes and due to the inertia the racquet starts rotating very fast by using wrist ulnar deviation.

According to you ulnar deviation forces the arm to change direction and move toward the side fence. :-?
Do you see Serena's arm moving to the side fence on her slice here that has a huge curve? I don't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AshpV0lddGo&t=12s

 

[toly]

That serve is not a flat serve. :???: It's a slice serve motion and it does curve to the left. And then it also curves after it bounces. It's just not a huge curve.

Can you prove that this serve is slice serve? If you disagree with my explanation about the man in red shirt flat/slice serve, just tell me what is wrong with it.

According to you ulnar deviation forces the arm to change direction and move toward the side fence. :-?
Do you see Serena's arm moving to the side fence on her slice here that has a huge curve? I don't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AshpV0lddGo&t=12s

We were talking about slice serve into right corner of ad box, see diagram in post #51.

 

[LeeD]

Oh, amendment to post #63, from a set I played today.
Went back to Dunlop500 from 200, dropping 2.5 oz in total weight. Air temps a sunny, dry 60, same elevation.
Duece court out wide twists bouncing up well above forehead height to a guy 5' 10", and ad court twists up the middle well over the head of a 5'7" player. Me lefty.
Slightly newer old DunlopHardCourts. My arm feeling a little better, but my ankle feeling like I could almost jog now.
The 10 oz racket just swings faster up and out, giving me much more spin and ball speed, so the twist serve is more effective.

 

[Cheetah]

Can you prove that this serve is slice serve? If you disagree with my explanation about the man in red shirt flat/slice serve, just tell me what is wrong with it.

We were talking about slice serve into right corner of ad box, see diagram in post #51.

It's a slice serve. His motion is a slice motion. The ball curves to he left during flight. The ball curves to the left after the bounce. That means it's a slice. Plus that guy has a decent serve and has videos of him hitting all the different kinds of serves. I'm pretty sure he knows the difference.

Of course serena hits a better slice than he does. Look at the serena vid i posted. He arm is not swinging out wide like you said it should.

 

[LeeD]

Should a sequential be posted of a twist serve, one that rightie's kick from left to right after the bounce?
Why are we posting flat/slice serves here?

 

[Cheetah]

Should a sequential be posted of a twist serve, one that rightie's kick from left to right after the bounce?
Why are we posting flat/slice serves here?

Agree.
maybe a frame by frame one. Not a fake modified one where Toly puts the arms wherever he wants.

 

[toly]

Agree.
maybe a frame by frame one. Not a fake modified one where Toly puts the arms wherever he wants.

In post #64 I said, “Here are two examples of the idealized tennis serve: topspin and slice. “
It means that I was going to analyze the matter theoretically. That’s why I changed Stosur arm orientation. You are aviation engineer (?), IMO you should understand this approach right away (????).

Here are two real examples of Stosur serve.

When she hits topspin serve she tilts her arm to the left, but when she hits slice and flat serves she tilts the arm to the right.

 

[Cheetah]

looks good to me. you should include contact point on the ball.

 

[toly]

looks good to me. you should include contact point on the ball.

There are pictures of Stosur kick serve around impact process.

I have no idea how we can define contact point on the ball if it rolls on the strings “very long” distance? I think contact point on the string is much more important. It should be next to upper edge of the frame in case of any spin serve.

 

[LeeD]

Are we being to analytical nitpicky here?
One sequence of one twist serve doesn't mean we should strive for a specific contact point.
What is much more important, can YOU hit a high bouncing twist serve?

 

[Cheetah]

i guess we can forget about contact. good pictures tho.

i think the ball contact point was more important than the string contact area because for a twist the contact is not the back of the ball. or shouldn't be anyway. it's the 'inside of the ball'. the lower left side of the ball.
because to hit that area of the ball you have to be 'swinging towards the sidefence.'

 

[toly]

i guess we can forget about contact. good pictures tho.

i think the ball contact point was more important than the string contact area because for a twist the contact is not the back of the ball. or shouldn't be anyway. it's the 'inside of the ball'. the lower left side of the ball.
because to hit that area of the ball you have to be 'swinging towards the sidefence.'

The ball’s speed and direction are mostly defined by internal shoulder rotation (ISR - arm pronation), which absolutely has nothing to do with “swinging towards the side-fence” or whatever. One can swing to the left, but if he over pronate then the ball flies to the right.

Next pictures of Nadal slice serve confirm that the wrist ulnar deviation and ISR are much more important than arm rotation in vertical plane, because of its slowness.

 

[Cheetah]

We are talking about kick/twist. The inside of the ball is hit. Almost all of the pronation happens after contact.

You still haven't explained how ulnar deviation somehow makes the arm 'change direction and fly to the left (sidefence)'.

And if ulnar deviation makes the arm change direction and fly to the left than why doesn't serena's or nadal's arm change direction and fly towards the sidefence on a slice serve?