kick serve: racquet vs arm angle

[johnmccabe]

For the kick serve, I think we want the ball to drop a little bit deeper so the racquet can hit up to create topspin. Compared to flat serve, the angle between handle and forearm is supposed to be smaller at contact during a kicker. I can't produce this smaller angle. If I let the ball drop, I end up making contact with a bend arm. Anyone has a suggestion how to fix this? Thanks!

here is an example from Thiem

https://imgur.com/5XmHdZQ

 

[Dragy]

To achieve that, you want your wrist and grip 90% loose when swinging up from drop. You let the racquet head fall back as much as possible. Then you don't lock it, but intend to make contact almost before it starts up and around (with ISR/pronation).
To mentally trick yourself against hitting with bent arm, imagine you actually make contact level with your hand - you let the ball drop lower vs your hand, not vs the ground (and then adjust with our arm keeping same racquet orientation).

If you have firm grip (focus too much on pushing/throwing racquet head up over), you get neither the "90 degree" pre-contact angle (see below), nor let the racquet freely pivot up.

I like to focus on pulling/throwing the handle/buttcap up and through and expect racquet head to catch up into the ball naturally - for spin serves.

 

[johnmccabe]

To achieve that, you want your wrist and grip 90% loose when swinging up from drop. You let the racquet head fall back as much as possible. Then you don't lock it, but intend to make contact almost before it starts up and around (with ISR/pronation).
To mentally trick yourself against hitting with bent arm, imagine you actually make contact level with your hand - you let the ball drop lower vs your hand, not vs the ground (and then adjust with our arm keeping same racquet orientation).

If you have firm grip (focus too much on pushing/throwing racquet head up over), you get neither the "90 degree" pre-contact angle (see below), nor let the racquet freely pivot up.

I like to focus on pulling/throwing the handle/buttcap up and through and expect racquet head to catch up into the ball naturally - for spin serves.

I knew you would have something good to say...

 

[ballmachineguy]

For the kick serve, I think we want the ball to drop a little bit deeper so the racquet can hit up to create topspin. Compared to flat serve, the angle between handle and forearm is supposed to be smaller at contact during a kicker. I can't produce this smaller angle. If I let the ball drop, I end up making contact with a bend arm. Anyone has a suggestion how to fix this? Thanks!

here is an example from Thiem

https://imgur.com/5XmHdZQ

Learn to hit a forehand first.

*just in case he looks (snicker)*

 

[Funbun]

I can't produce this smaller angle. If I let the ball drop, I end up making contact with a bend arm.

This tiny difference in height/angle is almost impossible to isolate because of how fast the service motion is, and how there are many other controllable, more important parts of the serve you have to coordinate. You may end up with a hitch or power drain in the backswing phase attempting to manufacture this.

The swing motion is inherently the same as the flat serve. If you have a good flat serve motion, then this shouldn't be an issue.

The kick serve occurs because you are keeping your torso sideways for longer, restricting the racquet swingpath during the ISR, and the toss location makes it so that contact is made in the earlier part of the ISR. Everything else is virtually the same.

If you notice your arm is bent at contact, that means you're letting it drop too low and/or swinging way too slow to the point of pushing, if anything. Reset your focus to the bigger factors that you can tangibly change instead of otherwise split second components of the serve that occur as a byproduct of proper form.

 

[johnmccabe]

This tiny difference in height/angle is almost impossible to isolate because of how fast the service motion is, and how there are many other controllable, more important parts of the serve you have to coordinate.

The swing motion is inherently the same as the flat serve. If you have a good flat serve motion, then this shouldn't be an issue.

The kick serve occurs because you are keeping your torso sideways for longer, restricting the racquet swingpath during the ISR, and the toss location makes it so that contact is made in the earlier part of the ISR. Everything else is virtually the same.

If your arm is bent at contact, that means you're letting it drop too low, if anything. Reset your focus to the bigger factors that you can tangibly change instead of otherwise split second components of the serve that occur as a byproduct of proper form.

My flat serve is good. I'm learning to stay more sideways, still an issue sometimes. When I let the ball drop, I end up compensating with hand position, not racquet head position. It does seem like a byproduct of other things that I'm missing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Google search: kick serve Chas Tennis Youtube

Google- Slice serve Chas Tennis Youtube

Ask yourself why things rise. The elbow straightens rapidly. That gets the racket head moving and its inertia keeps it rising.

Don't remember tennis strokes using false word descriptions such as 'stay sideways for the kick serve'. Look at videos and see that 'stay more sideways than the slice or flat serves' is true. Videos from above show this. See Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead camera views of the kick, slice and flat serves. It shows the truth about the stay sideways. Believe what you see in high speed videos rather than a few tennis word that are almost always misleading.

I have posted on the angles of the serve many times. Computer battery dead just now. Search for my old posts.