Late Calls?

[Steady Eddy]

My partner is serving at 30-40, his second serve goes very close to the line. The returner hits it wide. After it lands wide, they both say that the serve was out.

My partner whispered to me that he could tell it was good. But to me the problem is the late call. They should have called it out before it the return landed wide. Here's what I think happened, the returner thinks, "That's too close for me to call, I'll let my partner call it." And the partner thinks the same thing. So neither said anything, then they think, "I'm not insisting it was good, let's call it out." But the fact that neither said a word at the appropriate time indicates that neither was sure it was out. Neither was sure it was in. But that means they should give us the benefit of their doubt.

I get it. They were hoping to break and it's disappointing not to get it because of a lucky shot. (We cannot hit lines at will). But I probably give my opponents 5 points per set by benefit of the doubt. When I don't get that in return, it's like I'm being cheated 5 points per set. Especially on important points.

Y'all have read The Code here, right?

 

[Cashman]

realistically this happens all the time in rec tennis, people are really lazy and don't give a **** about the letter of the rules

people don't call out the score because they can't be bothered. people don't call balls out because they think their partner is going to do it, or that it was obvious. people return balls that are out because they don't want to pick up after the point.

maybe he was cheating you, maybe he wasn't - either way it's not worth getting upset about because that's just how rec tennis players roll

 

[socallefty]

From the Code.

17. Prompt calls eliminate two chance option. A player shall make all calls promptly. A call shall be made either before the player’s return shot has gone out of play or before an opponent has had an opportunity to play the return shot. Prompt calls will quickly eliminate the “two chances to win the point” option that some players practice.

 

[Cashman]

From the Code.

17. Prompt calls eliminate two chance option. A player shall make all calls promptly. A call shall be made either before the player’s return shot has gone out of play or before an opponent has had an opportunity to play the return shot. Prompt calls will quickly eliminate the “two chances to win the point” option that some players practice.

yeah but realistically what weenie goes around quoting 'the code' at people during matches

nobody outside TTW cares

 

[ChaelAZ]

Late Calls?

The worst.
This chick called me at, like, 2am. I was all, you know I ain't that kinda service call woman. Get in touch during regular bidnezz hours for it.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Aside from that, unless they completely play several stroke THEN call it, I don't mind a return and then correction. I tell people I might hit a return and then call something cuz it takes my brain that long to process and tell my mouth to say something anymore. But there are obvious exceptions to all that when someone is obviously trying to cover for a crap return.

 

[LuckyR]

Only play folks who are trustworthy, so if they call it out late, you know it really was out.

 

[Pumpkin]

I think he had only called it a fault after seeing his return went out otherwise he wouldn't have called it. You were entitled to make a complaint.

 

[Pass750]

Your point, they can’t call the serve out after the return.

And if they are unsure whether ball is out, it’s in.

 

[mucat]

If it is one-off, just leave it.
Also, if the ball is close enough to be called out, expect it to be called out. That's what I tell myself anyway.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Aside from that, unless they completely play several stroke THEN call it, I don't mind a return and then correction. I tell people I might hit a return and then call something cuz it takes my brain that long to process and tell my mouth to say something anymore. But there are obvious exceptions to all that when someone is obviously trying to cover for a crap return.

Also, you generally know from past history whether they do it to cheat or they just make late calls.

For example, I've hit return winners and then called the 1st serve out: obviously I'm not trying to cheat because if I was, I'd just take the point.

And of course, followed by the obligatory "Oh never mind, it was in!".

 

[cks]

maybe he was cheating you, maybe he wasn't - either way it's not worth getting upset about because that's just how rec tennis players roll

+1

 

[zaph]

Knew a guy who did this, he would base the service call on the quality of the return. So you could serve long, sometimes blatantly out and if he got a good return he wouldn't call it. If however his return landed out, then he called the serve.

It is very annoying to play against because as a server you can often tell when you have missed and you're not expecting to play the next shot. Yes I know you should play till the call is made but I found it very distracting,

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Knew a guy who did this, he would base the service call on the quality of the return. So you could serve long, sometimes blatantly out and if he got a good return he wouldn't call it. If however his return landed out, then he called the serve.

It is very annoying to play against because as a server you can often tell when you have missed and you're not expecting to play the next shot. Yes I know you should play till the call is made but I found it very distracting,

It happens occasionally because we're not perfect. But if he's doing it as a tactic, that's different. I'd only ask him to play if I couldn't find anyone else and maybe not even then.

 

[Steady Eddy]

It happens occasionally because we're not perfect. But if he's doing it as a tactic, that's different. I'd only ask him to play if I couldn't find anyone else and maybe not even then.

Right. It's not really about losing a point, it's about making the experience unpleasant. If I miss a first serve deep, I'd like to do the second serve promptly. I don't want to have to chase down every return only to hear "Serve was out". It's annoying.

 

[optic yellow]

I call it late when its close sometimes because I'm focused on the return and it takes a second to register it was out but in these cases I'll always call it while its still in the air. Waiting until after it lands is excusable maybe once.

 

[socallefty]

Right. It's not really about losing a point, it's about making the experience unpleasant. If I miss a first serve deep, I'd like to do the second serve promptly. I don't want to have to chase down every return only to hear "Serve was out". It's annoying.

Don’t get annoyed so much about one point. You’ll meet a lot of cheaters and people who do ‘gamesmanship’ on the tennis court and in real life. If you let it get to you everytime they do it, it is tough to focus on the job at hand which is to be at your best every moment. If you get disciplined enough to be at your best always or at least to try for that, you will be quite successful/happy on court and in life.

 

[optic yellow]

Don’t get annoyed so much about one point. You’ll meet a lot of cheaters and people who do ‘gamesmanship’ on the tennis court and in real life. If you let it get to you everytime they do it, it is tough to focus on the job at hand which is to be at your best every moment. If you get disciplined enough to be at your best always or at least to try for that, you will be quite successful/happy in life.

And also remember you can gamesmanship them back occasionally without feeling the least bit guilty about it.

 

[socallefty]

And also remember you can gamesmanship them back occasionally without feeling the least bit guilty about it.

No, don’t do that. That is not being at your best - never compromise your own values. Or your values are no better than that of the opponent. Self-discipline and focus is better.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Don’t get annoyed so much about one point. You’ll meet a lot of cheaters and people who do ‘gamesmanship’ on the tennis court and in real life. If you let it get to you everytime they do it, it is tough to focus on the job at hand which is to be at your best every moment. If you get disciplined enough to be at your best always or at least to try for that, you will be quite successful/happy on court and in life.

That was yesterday. I'm over it by today.

And also remember you can gamesmanship them back occasionally without feeling the least bit guilty about it.

The trouble with that is someone passing by might watch, and not knowing the context they might label me a poor sport.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The trouble with that is someone passing by might watch, and not knowing the context they might label me a poor sport.

To me, it's secondary what other people think of my behavior; what I think is way more important. Not that I don't care what other people think but it has to be OK with me before I worry about whether it's OK with some random passerby.

 

[optic yellow]

No, don’t do that. That is not being at your best - never compromise your own values. Or your values are no better than that of the opponent. Self-discipline and focus is better.

If done prudently I don't consider that compromising personal values. I suppose if it is too much effort to make this judgement call (which it absolutely could be) then it is better to err on the side of not doing it.

The trouble with that is someone passing by might watch, and not knowing the context they might label me a poor sport.

You can't care about the judgement of a passing stranger who does not know the full context of the match.

 

[socallefty]

And also remember you can gamesmanship them back occasionally without feeling the least bit guilty about it.

I have seen matches where one player makes a bad call through a genuine mistake - especially due to Parallax error when looking at the ball sideways. The opponent who hit the ball DTL has a better view, sees it ‘in‘ and thinks the other guy cheated. Then the opponent(s) starts making bad calls in retaliation calling close balls out. Sometimes the first team then responds in kind. Soon the whole atmosphere is terrible for both players and fans. Look up parallax error and keep in mind that some bad line calls can be genuine mistakes.

 

[optic yellow]

I have seen matches where one player makes a bad call through a genuine mistake - especially due to Parallax error when looking at the ball sideways. The other player looking down the line sees it in and thinks the other guy cheated. Then the opponent(s) starts making bad calls in retaliation calling close balls out. Sometimes the first team then responds in kind. Soon the whole atmosphere is terrible for both players and fans. Look up parallax error and keep in mind that some bad line calls can be genuine mistakes.

In that situation shouldn't the guy looking down the line say that he had a great view of it and saw it in? I will look up the parallax error and keep this in mind however. In any case, I would never advocate for retaliatory calls after one or two incidents; it would need to be an established pattern where the opponent is clearly trying to evade being called out before such an option is justifiable.

 

[Pumpkin]

There's one I've never forgotten where I did the wrong thing ( I think) I was in my late teens. I didn't really know this guy well but we played a singles match each weekend at this social group thing .We were so evenly matched and our matches always went down to the wire but he always beat me. Then one week it was the same again and there was always one crucial point towards the end that seemed to decide the match. It happened again and he hit what would have been a forehand winner but I called it out. I think I wanted it to be out so badly that my eyes saw it out. He questioned me saying " are you sure it was out?" I said yes. " are you absolutely sure it was out?" I said yes. But I bet it was in. I've always felt guilty about it, all these years later. I won the match. We never played again.

 

[mac-1210]

Two options…call it out straight away, with confidence or don’t call it out. Any half hearted or late call or using the words “I think it was…” should not happen and just leads to doubt and ill feeling. As the recipient of a call, I’m not too bothered as long as a decision is made that sounds like it’s not been cooked up. I’m not accurate enough to be hitting lines so I shouldn’t be going for them anyway, I’ll move onto the next point.

 

[Johnny505]

Call should come immediately and when they are 100% sure, if in doubt, don't call, if they look at each other and "debate" then tough sxxt, play on until the call comes later in the point when it is out. When they call a ball out and it can barely be heard, I'd say out aloud "can you call it out so everyone can hear and not just yourself, there are 3 other people playing this game and not just you".

After 3 to 4 points played in a game, when no one has called the score, the server gets ready to serve and asks what's the score, looking blank, same with their partner, I ask them "why did you not call the score out after each point?"

The server should call out the score after the point is over and before they are ready to serve, the score within a game has a significant impact how the server would serve, unfortunately a lot of player are clueless. I ask out aloud "what is the score please?" if no one can be bothered to call out the score, and I will do that after 2 points and continue to do so through the match until everyone get it.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Maybe I'm getting off my own topic, but...in the legal system one is innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So if a jury comes back with a guilty verdict, that should have been a short deliberation. If they deliberate for days, the verdict must be not guilty. If they have to deliberate for a long time, then it's unsure, and that means the accused should get the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Friedman Whip]

There's one I've never forgotten where I did the wrong thing ( I think) I was in my late teens. I didn't really know this guy well but we played a singles match each weekend at this social group thing .We were so evenly matched and our matches always went down to the wire but he always beat me. Then one week it was the same again and there was always one crucial point towards the end that seemed to decide the match. It happened again and he hit what would have been a forehand winner but I called it out. I think I wanted it to be out so badly that my eyes saw it out. He questioned me saying " are you sure it was out?" I said yes. " are you absolutely sure it was out?" I said yes. But I bet it was in. I've always felt guilty about it, all these years later. I won the match. We never played again.

Based on years of my own personal experiences, I concluded that the "are you sure?" approach is a complete waste of time, and more likely a move toward escalation of bad feelings rather than the opposite.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Based on years of my own personal experiences, I concluded that the "are you sure?" approach is a complete waste of time, and more likely a move toward escalation of bad feelings rather than the opposite.

There's a certain loose correlation between how uncertain he is and how aggressively he defends his decision.

 

[socallefty]

Based on years of my own personal experiences, I concluded that the "are you sure?" approach is a complete waste of time, and more likely a move toward escalation of bad feelings rather than the opposite.

I will ask that only if a series of bad calls have been made by the opponent and it is just to put him on notice that I am seeing the call differently. It is not asked with any expectation that the call will be reversed. Sometimes, if you ask ‘are you sure’ a couple of times, an opponent might become a bit more careful about calling every close ball out as some are wont to do. At other times, it has no effect and you just have to do your best to win the match in spite of the repeated bad calls.

 

[MoxMonkey]

The part of tennis line calling that I absolutely cannot stand is delayed calls on first serves.

I'm talking about when you hit a 1st serve close but out, and the returner or his partner (if in doubles) waits until they see if the get a good stroke before deciding to call it out. He effectively turns the point into a 'free play' for himself.

It's fine to play an out ball that's close and your not sure it hasn't knicked the line. But if you play it you play it. There are no fu#%&ng take backs on it.

This is the worst form of cheating there is, the kind with some weak spined deniability or easy spin. I bet this type tells themselves they aren't even cheating.

 

[optic yellow]

The part of tennis line calling that I absolutely cannot stand is delayed calls on first serves.

I'm talking about when you hit a 1st serve close but out, and the returner or his partner (if in doubles) waits until they see if the get a good stroke before deciding to call it out. He effectively turns the point into a 'free play' for himself.

It's fine to play an out ball that's close and your not sure it hasn't knicked the line. But if you play it you play it. There are no fu#%&ng take backs on it.

This is the worst form of cheating there is, the kind with some weak spined deniability or easy spin. I bet this type tells themselves they aren't even cheating.

There is the possibility of mental lag causing this but in those cases the correction should always be made while the return is still in the air. I assume you are referring to the people who basically wait to see where it lands.

 

[Friedman Whip]

I will ask that only if a series of bad calls have been made by the opponent and it is just to put him on notice that I am seeing the call differently. It is not asked with any expectation that the call will be reversed. Sometimes, if you ask ‘are you sure’ a couple of times, an opponent might become a bit more careful about calling every close ball out as some are wont to do. At other times, it has no effect and you just have to do your best to win the match in spite of the repeated bad calls.

I accept that there are subtle and nuanced approaches that might work in some cases with some people. Back in the day when I played almost exclusively on hard courts I would always start in a as friendly and non confrontational way as possible, but I just can't remember it working hardly ever. I'm just really happy that for the last 20 years I have been playing on clay courts where bad line calls are way more difficult to get away with.

 

[MoxMonkey]

There is the possibility of mental lag causing this but in those cases the correction should always be made while the return is still in the air. I assume you are referring to the people who basically wait to see where it lands.

It's not so much a wait to see where it lands, it's more of a if it's mis hit they call it out, if they stripe it they don't. If I hit a 1st serve barely out it doesn't give my opponent a free crack at it. I've come across this twice. The first time in doubles, and I think I posted something about it.

It's strait up cheating, it's the worst kind of cheating. The kind where you can lie to yourself about it.

I've had a couple bad situations since I've started playing, this stuff, and a couple ladies in mixed doubles deciding balls were out that were definitely not.

For the most part though, even as competitive natured as some of my opponents have been, I don't think they have ever intentionally made a wrong call on purpose to cheat, if anything they have let too close to call out balls count as in.

 

[optic yellow]

It's not so much a wait to see where it lands, it's more of a if it's mis hit they call it out, if they stripe it they don't. If I hit a 1st serve barely out it doesn't give my opponent a free crack at it. I've come across this twice. The first time in doubles, and I think I posted something about it.

It's strait up cheating, it's the worst kind of cheating. The kind where you can lie to yourself about it.

I've had a couple bad situations since I've started playing, this stuff, and a couple ladies in mixed doubles deciding balls were out that were definitely not.

For the most part though, even as competitive natured as some of my opponents have been, I don't think they have ever intentionally made a wrong call on purpose to cheat, if anything they have let too close to call out balls count as in.

Oh yeah see when I do this I call it what it was even when I hit what would have been a perfectly placed winner. I think my brain just lags because return of serve is the second weakest component of my game (you can guess the first ) so I get really tunnel visioned on trying to not frame it back.

I also agree that many people who are "cheating" or make bad calls aren't necessarily trying to cheat. There is the parallax thing @socallefty mentioned + simply seeing things with the heart rather than the mind. The latter is cheating of course but not in calculated way.

 

[Shroud]

The worst.
This chick called me at, like, 2am. I was all, you know I ain't that kinda service call woman. Get in touch during regular bidnezz hours for it.

That is when I turn the Hawkeye off…

 

[zaph]

It's not so much a wait to see where it lands, it's more of a if it's mis hit they call it out, if they stripe it they don't. If I hit a 1st serve barely out it doesn't give my opponent a free crack at it. I've come across this twice. The first time in doubles, and I think I posted something about it.

It's strait up cheating, it's the worst kind of cheating. The kind where you can lie to yourself about it.

I've had a couple bad situations since I've started playing, this stuff, and a couple ladies in mixed doubles deciding balls were out that were definitely not.

For the most part though, even as competitive natured as some of my opponents have been, I don't think they have ever intentionally made a wrong call on purpose to cheat, if anything they have let too close to call out balls count as in.

Yep, as I said earlier I have come across this and as you say it is blatant cheating. They are calling based on the quality of their return, not whether the serve was in.

 

[optic yellow]

Yep, as I said earlier I have come across this and as you say it is blatant cheating. They are calling based on the quality of their return, not whether the serve was in.

Has anyone in this situation ever called the serve out themself? Like if you they are cheating you, you know yourself it is out, so then you just tell them they are being too kind and you know it was out.

 

[socallefty]

Has anyone in this situation ever called the serve out themself? Like if you they are cheating you, you know yourself it is out, so then you just tell them they are being too kind and you know it was out.

The rules say you can call your own serve out only when it is not in your favor - meaning on a missed return on first serves. If the return is good, you cannot call your own first serve out. You can call your own 2nd serve out irrespective of the return as that means you always lose the point on a double fault.

 

[optic yellow]

The rules say you can call your own serve out only when it is not in your favor - meaning on a missed return on first serves. If the return is good, you cannot call your own first serve out. You can call your own 2nd serve out irrespective of the return as that means you always lose the point on a double fault.

TIL

 

[cks]

The rules say you can call your own serve out only when it is not in your favor - meaning on a missed return on first serves. If the return is good, you cannot call your own first serve out. You can call your own 2nd serve out irrespective of the return as that means you always lose the point on a double fault.

Like @optic yellow, I learned something new today.

I wanted to find where in the rules this is discussed and I found it Friend at Court 2022.

13. Player calls own shots out. With the exception of the first serve, a player should call out the player’s own shots if the player clearly sees the ball out regardless of whether requested to do so by an opponent. The prime objective in making calls is accuracy. All players should cooperate to attain this objective

 

[Big_Dangerous]

yeah but realistically what weenie goes around quoting 'the code' at people during matches

nobody outside TTW cares

A smart informed person who actually cares about playing matches to the standard with which they are supposed to play. If you let that **** slide, then what's to stop them from breaking other rules and then cherry picking which rules they want to follow and which ones they don't? I guess we should eliminate second serves because we don't want to play by that rule. Or let's not call out when they touch the ball before it lands out of play.