Martina Hingis vs Venus Williams in the year 2000

[Xavier G]

Interesting to look back at the year 2000 again.

Martina won 9 titles: Tokyo, Miami, Hamburg, Hertogenbosch, Canada, Filderstadt, Zurich, Moscow and the WTA Tour Championships.
Venus won 6 titles: Wimbledon, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven, US Open and the Olympic Games gold.

Venus missed the first few months of the year through injury problems and the last portion of the year due to health worries.

No Grand Slam win for Martina, just one final, runner up to Davenport at the AO.
Venus won the Wimbledon-US Open double, beating both Hingis and Davenport in both events.

Martina had consistent results all season, but I would much rather have Venus' year!
Your thoughts please.

 

[kiki]

The HtH is 9-9 between both , Don´t know for 2000

 

[Xavier G]

Hello, Kiki.

It's 11-10 in favour of Martina, I believe.
2-0 to Venus for 2000, the Grand Slam meetings, as far as I can tell.

 

[AngieB]

As I recall, Richard Williams was claiming that Venus might have to retire because of her injuries earlier that year so it was somewhat of a huge surprise the year Venus had.

AngieB

 

[kiki]

Hello, Kiki.

It's 11-10 in favour of Martina, I believe.
2-0 to Venus for 2000, the Grand Slam meetings, as far as I can tell.

Hi Xavier,

You are correct.The HtH is equal for Martina vs the two Williiams.So She had one win more against Venus but one loss more against Serena.

 

[NLBwell]

As I recall, Richard Williams was claiming that Venus might have to retire because of her injuries earlier that year so it was somewhat of a huge surprise the year Venus had.

AngieB

Richard is very smart and very cagey. Whatever he says publicly is designed to help his daughters. He may have believed it, he may not have. I'm sure he believed at the time that lowering expectations was in the best interests of Venus.

 

[kiki]

There has been a great influence of father or mother among women´s top players much more than men´s ( where only Connors and Gloria happened to be)
The Sukhovas, Hingis and her mom, Williams sisters and Richard, Evert and father Jimmy, a pro coach, Graf,Jaeger and Seles had a big daddy influence, in the case of Andrea it didn´t work out too well at the end...many other cases I just can´t recall now...oh¡¡ Marisa and Arancha Sanchez and the unfortunate case of Mary Pierce and her dad...

 

[Xavier G]

As I recall, Richard Williams was claiming that Venus might have to retire because of her injuries earlier that year so it was somewhat of a huge surprise the year Venus had.

AngieB

Yes. It would have been a shame if Venus had stopped playing at such a young age.
Thanks for the input.

 

[Xavier G]

Hi Xavier,

You are correct.The HtH is equal for Martina vs the two Williiams.So She had one win more against Venus but one loss more against Serena.

Yes, kiki. Martina played the two sisters about evenly. Like Martina has said, it was tough trying to beat two of them and sometimes one after the other!
It's a pity Martina didn't have a full career at all the big events into her thirties like Serena, who's kept going. Martina peaked young and had a good run for a few years. I would have liked her comeback to have delivered more. Good player to watch.

 

[Mustard]

Venus Williams in her prime is one of the best female tennis players of all time. She had even more raw power than Serena.

 

[ripitup]

Venus Williams in her prime is one of the best female tennis players of all time. She had even more raw power than Serena.

Then why couldnt she end a single year ranked #1 or ever win at 2 of the 4 slam venues.

Most of her success was also after the Seles stabbing. She didnt really achieve much before that in the early 90s.

 

[Brian11785]

Then why couldnt she end a single year ranked #1 or ever win at 2 of the 4 slam venues.

Most of her success was also after the Seles stabbing. She didnt really achieve much before that in the early 90s.

Venus was 12 when Seles was stabbed. You make-a no sense.

 

[ripitup]

Venus was 12 when Seles was stabbed. You make-a no sense.

She still was one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Seles stabbing along with Sanchez Vicario. She would probably have only between 0-3 slams without the Seles stabbing. Unlike Serena who would still have all 17 of hers even had the Seles stabbing not occured (soon to be 25 or so).

More to the point though she failed to end a single year at #1 or produce a respectable record at the Australian or French Opens. She also failed to have a year she won both WTA and ITF Player of Year awards. In 2001 Mary Carillo called her "the real #1" yet it was Capriati who won all Player of the Year awards. In 2000 she was touted as best player after her Wimbledon-U.S Open-Olympics run by Hingis still won 1 of WTA or ITF (forget which) Player of Year awards over her.

She makes too many unforced errors. Lots of winners, great offense and defense, but tons of errors and sloppy play, even at her best. The 2000 U.S Open semi vs Hingis is called a classic and Venus at her best, yet Venus almost lost it despite Hingis only hitting 13 winners. That proves Venus even at her best is making a truckload of errors vs tough competition.

 

[Brian11785]

She still was one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Seles stabbing along with Sanchez Vicario. She would probably have only between 0-3 slams without the Seles stabbing. Unlike Serena who would still have all 17 of hers even had the Seles stabbing not occured (soon to be 25 or so).

More to the point though she failed to end a single year at #1 or produce a respectable record at the Australian or French Opens. She also failed to have a year she won both WTA and ITF Player of Year awards. In 2001 Mary Carillo called her "the real #1" yet it was Capriati who won all Player of the Year awards. In 2000 she was touted as best player after her Wimbledon-U.S Open-Olympics run by Hingis still won 1 of WTA or ITF (forget which) Player of Year awards over her.

She makes too many unforced errors. Lots of winners, great offense and defense, but tons of errors and sloppy play, even at her best. The 2000 U.S Open semi vs Hingis is called a classic and Venus at her best, yet Venus almost lost it despite Hingis only hitting 13 winners. That proves Venus even at her best is making a truckload of errors vs tough competition.

lol. That is a huuuge jump in logic. I mean, Seles if one of my all-time favorite players (like her a lot more than Venus), but to assume that Seles would still be dominating a deepening field in 2000-2001 (when Venus won her first four Slams....) is downright silly. Also, you say that Serena would still have all of her Slams.....are you including the US Open she won in 99 before Venus won her first GS title? Why are Serena's GS's immune from your hypothetical Seles domination and Venus's not? Again, you make no sense.

I repeat, Venus did not win her first Grand Slam title until 2000--over 7 years after the Seles stabbing. How is that being a "beneficiary"?

I'm not going to argue that Venus is a first-tier legend, but your misuse of the Seles stabbing issue to argue that point is a non-starter.

 

[ripitup]

I never said Seles would have "dominated" without the stabbing. I dont believe she would have. For instance I still believe Steffi Graf would have won 20 majors minimum still. I still believe Hingis would have atleast 5 majors just like she does (or maybe more with rearranged draws). I just think Sanchez and Venus likely benefitted greatly from the stabbing as those are two players who dont have the proper type of games to beat an unstabbed Seles who progressed as normal. That is all. Serena clearly has the proper game to beat Seles and would have been dominating a 25+ or older Seles who would have already been well past her peak regardless of the stabbing, so that is why there is no point considering her.

Venus though would likely have won only 1-3 of her 7 slams (5 Wimbledons and 2 U.S Opens) without the Seles stabbing. Even if you disagree that doesnt take away from her other career failures- no year end #1, poor records at 2 of the 4 slams, not even not winning but not even doing well, losing records vs many players with less slams- Clijsters, Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Jankovic.

 

[bahamasboy32]

Seles without the stabbing would not have denied Venus any of her slams. 5 of the 7 were at Wimbledon from 2000 onwards. Venus is a way better grass player than Seles, and 2000 was long past Seles's peak days, even without the stabbing. The other 2 were U.S Opens in 2000 and 2001 when Venus was playing some of the best hard court tennis ever by a women. Venus is a horrible matchup for Seles and is 11-1 against her lifetime. Previous poster must be a huge Venus hater to say such things.

Venus should have won alot more slams. Without her auto immune disease and Serena's emergence she would have won 15 atleast I believe. In terms of power and athletics and offense and defense she is one of the best women players ever, regardless of her stats. At her best she was equally scary to Serena at her best, and that is saying something.

 

[bahamasboy32]

The HtH is 9-9 between both , Don´t know for 2000

They are both such great players. I miss their rivalry. Had both stayed healthy and strong womens tennis would have continued to have the great newfound depth it had in the late 90s and start of the 2000s and Serena would have alot more competition than she has today.

 

[bahamasboy32]

It is terrible to see horrible Venus haters like ripitup and Mustard in this thread, even trying to put Venus's slams down to the Seles stabbing which even a blind man can see in no way related to Venus at all. What desperate Venus haters. I hope Venus shocks everyone and sticks it to all her critics in 2014, especialy ridiculous haters like ripitup and Mustard.

 

[bahamasboy32]

I meant I hope she wins an 8th slam in 2014 and makes her haters like Mustard and ripitup who demean her and even claim some of her 7 slams were only due to the Seles stabbing eat it and suffer as she shocks the World with slam #8 when everyone had written her off.

 

[Brian11785]

Seles without the stabbing would not have denied Venus any of her slams. 5 of the 7 were at Wimbledon from 2000 onwards. Venus is a way better grass player than Seles, and 2000 was long past Seles's peak days, even without the stabbing.
The other 2 were U.S Opens in 2000 and 2001 when Venus was playing some of the best hard court tennis ever by a women. Venus is a horrible matchup for Seles and is 11-1 against her lifetime. Previous poster must be a huge Venus hater to say such things. Venus should have won alot more slams. Without her auto immune disease and Serena's emergence she would have won 15 atleast I believe. In terms of power and athletics and offense and defense she is one of the best women players ever, regardless of her stats. At her best she was equally scary to Serena at her best, and that is saying something.

Truth. If anything, the beneficiary of the stabbing was Hingis, since she won so many Australian Opens (Monica's best Slam, pre and post stabbing) in the late 90s. Obviously Hingis was a bad match-up for Seles as it played out, but making statements about how well a never-stabbed Monica would or wouldn't play against Hingis or Venus or Serena is pretty silly.

Hingis and Seles are my all-time favorite players, btw.

 

[ripitup]

I actually dont think Hingis won any extra slams due to the Seles stabbing. Obviously we will never know but lets break it down:

1997 Australian open- Seles missed due to FLUKE accident (catching ball wrong, breaking finger) and fathers illness. Nothing to do with stabbing at all. Hingis was also in the zone here and would have even beaten Graf. Graf knew it too so tanked to Coetzer to avoid losing in final to Hingis. After taking 5 sets to beat Hingis on fast carpet in the 96 WTA Championships final, Graf knew there was no point even giving it a try on rebound ace- her worst surface and Hingis's best. The strategic tank backfired on Graf though, as it gave Coetzer the confidence to be a thorn in Graf's side for awhile.

1997 Wimbledon- Notice I said Wimbledon. Next.

1997 U.S Open- Seles was never a dominant player on faster courts, and if she had already won 1 or 2 more U.S Opens after 92 (without the stabbing) for 3 or 4 total, probably had already won her quota here. Plus lots of dangerous players in the draw this year to potentially take Seles or Hingis out (Venus, Spirlea, Novotna, Davenport). Hingis survived all. PS- before you say it, I know Hingis was also no dominant fast court player, and this would be her only title here, no surprise there either.

1998 Australian Open- Seles off tour entirely with her fathers condition.

1999 Australian Open- Seles's window for more slams was probably mostly 93-98, and probably closing or closed altogether by now. In any case Hingis was in the zone here, worked with Bolliteri over the summer as she was peeved losing her #1 to Davenport and played lights out here. Was never losing. World #1 Davenport was even too scared to play her, especialy losing to her on the fast carpet courts Davenport would have expected to win on in the 98 WTA Championships final, so lost to Mauresmo in the semis to avoid Hingis.



Now Venus, that is a whole other story. Venus and Sanchez were the biggest beneficiares of the Seles stabbing no matter what Seles fanatics like bahamasboy tries to insist upon.

 

[Brian11785]

I actually dont think Hingis won any extra slams due to the Seles stabbing. Obviously we will never know but lets break it down:

1997 Australian open- Seles missed due to FLUKE accident (catching ball wrong, breaking finger) and fathers illness. Nothing to do with stabbing at all. Hingis was also in the zone here and would have even beaten Graf. Graf knew it too so tanked to Coetzer to avoid losing in final to Hingis. After taking 5 sets to beat Hingis on fast carpet in the 96 WTA Championships final, Graf knew there was no point even giving it a try on rebound ace- her worst surface and Hingis's best. The strategic tank backfired on Graf though, as it gave Coetzer the confidence to be a thorn in Graf's side for awhile.

1997 Wimbledon- Notice I said Wimbledon. Next.

1997 U.S Open- Seles was never a dominant player on faster courts, and if she had already won 1 or 2 more U.S Opens after 92 (without the stabbing) for 3 or 4 total, probably had already won her quota here. Plus lots of dangerous players in the draw this year to potentially take Seles or Hingis out (Venus, Spirlea, Novotna, Davenport). Hingis survived all. PS- before you say it, I know Hingis was also no dominant fast court player, and this would be her only title here, no surprise there either.

1998 Australian Open- Seles off tour entirely with her fathers condition.

1999 Australian Open- Seles's window for more slams was probably mostly 93-98, and probably closing or closed altogether by now. In any case Hingis was in the zone here, worked with Bolliteri over the summer as she was peeved losing her #1 to Davenport and played lights out here. Was never losing. World #1 Davenport was even too scared to play her, especialy losing to her on the fast carpet courts Davenport would have expected to win on in the 98 WTA Championships final, so lost to Mauresmo in the semis to avoid Hingis.



Now Venus, that is a whole other story. Venus and Sanchez were the biggest beneficiares of the Seles stabbing no matter what Seles fanatics like bahamasboy tries to insist upon.

You are contradicting yourself.

1) Venus didn't win a Slam until 2000, after, as you say, Seles's GS window was closed.

2) Your original statement was that Venus would win 0-3 Slams without the stabbing. But five of Venus's Slams occurred at Wimbledon, where even you admit Seles didn't have much of a shot.

You haven't made one cogent argument yet.

 

[ripitup]

OK let me rephrase myself. Seles's window was pretty much closed after 98, and she had little shot at Wimbledon, unless she faced someone she would have matched incredibly well up against without the stabbing like Venus. Venus just makes too many errors, and with her weak second serve which would be attacked ruthlessly by an unstabbed Seles, and forehand which technically breaks down when pressure is applied to (hence her losing head to head even vs the extremely slow footed but equally hard hitting and far more consistent and technically sound Davenport) so she would have been the best opponent of the next wave stars for an unstabbed Seles.

Hingis in general would have been a decent one for Seles if she werent stabbed too but considering the timing and context of Hingis's wins she would have been fine for those particular 5 and won atleast 4 or all 5 of them.

Serena on the other hand would be a horrible matchup for Seles even if she werent stabbed and anyway Serena didnt start winning slams (apart from the 99 U.S open) until Seles was almost 30 and wouldnt have been winning anything by then.

 

[Mustard]

I meant I hope she wins an 8th slam in 2014 and makes her haters like Mustard and ripitup who demean her and even claim some of her 7 slams were only due to the Seles stabbing eat it and suffer as she shocks the World with slam #8 when everyone had written her off.

Excuse me?

 

[ripitup]

He was probably just upset you agreed with me that most of Venus's slam titles were only due to the Seles stabbing. Blind Venus hater cant accept people like us who dare to speak the truth. Just like the Federer fans hate anyone who dare to say he isnt best ever.

 

[Mustard]

He was probably just upset you agreed with me that most of Venus's slam titles were only due to the Seles stabbing.

I said nothing of the kind. Venus' majors were a long time after the Seles stabbing, anyway.

 

[BTURNER]

I actually dont think Hingis won any extra slams due to the Seles stabbing. Obviously we will never know but lets break it down:

1997 Australian open- Seles missed due to FLUKE accident (catching ball wrong, breaking finger) and fathers illness. Nothing to do with stabbing at all. Hingis was also in the zone here and would have even beaten Graf. Graf knew it too so tanked to Coetzer to avoid losing in final to Hingis. After taking 5 sets to beat Hingis on fast carpet in the 96 WTA Championships final, Graf knew there was no point even giving it a try on rebound ace- her worst surface and Hingis's best. The strategic tank backfired on Graf though, as it gave Coetzer the confidence to be a thorn in Graf's side for awhile.


WOW Usually I respect your stuff but this is easily the worst of your posts. This 'reasoning' is as absurd as it is convoluted. You are really going to tell us when and to whom Graf tanked matches and then why? And then this is the 'why" you came up with? It's just silly to tank a R16 match to avoid a potential meeting in a final even if it were in Graf's character to tank. A junior player from High school wouldn't be that stupid!

Number 1 Women do not get to the highest echelons of tennis by tanking in majors because they lack confidence their chances to win. Graf is not the sort to quiver in fear at playing anyone at any time on any surface, let alone plan on it 3 rounds early. Which major matches do you think Evert, Navratilova, Court and Serena tanked because they were too scared to play the next round or the round after? Its called EGO or a winners belief and it is an attribute they all share.

 

[Xavier G]

To bring the topic back to some semblance of sanity, Venus won 35 straight matches in winning her titles this year and making the final at Linz. She won the Wimbledon-US double, plus Olympic gold, and beat her biggest rivals on the big occasions, so could claim to be best player for the season when fit enough to make the court. Martina was always there or thereabouts though.