More topspin with full eastern 1hbh grip than semi-western 1hbh grip?

[tennis_hack]

I am experimenting switching between the full eastern 1hbh grip (where all my knuckles are lined up on the top bevel as if gripping a mountain bike handle) and a semi-western 1hbh grip (where it is basically a semi-western forehand grip turned over to hit backhands with).

Unusually, I am finding that I can get more topspin with my full eastern grip than with my semi-western grip. This seems to be because my hand is in the most secure position to really supinate heavily through contact in the full eastern grip, yet, if I turn over more to semi-western grip, I cannot supinate over as violently, because now only my thumb is supporting the bottom of the grip.

Does that seem legitimate or does this mean there is a problem with my semi-western 1hbh? Has anyone else found this? Does it mean I need a smaller racket grip size?

Also interesting to note is that Gasquet uses a full eastern 1hbh grip, and Kuerten used a semi-western 1hbh grip. Both are known for having some of the heaviest topspin backhands ever, but which of them do you reckon hit even more topspin than the other (taking the strings they used into consideration)?

 

[LeeD]

Ain't the grip used.
It's the player. Confidence, swingspeed, swing style.

 

[10isfreak]

Does that seem legitimate or does this mean there is a problem with my semi-western 1hbh? Has anyone else found this? Does it mean I need a smaller racket grip size?

Using a more extreme grip closes your racket face which basically makes it increasingly easier to make an off-center contact on the ball: because the string bed is angled forward, you can clip the top of the ball a little more than you normally would, making it spin more heavily.

However, as you are used to plat with one grip and not the other, it's normal that your contact is more accurate and determined with the milder grip -- it's your usual grip, after all! Besides, all goods players will use a combination of ulnar deviation, wrist extension and forearm supination around the contact point to make their shot while keeping the racket face closed -- and you probably happen to do it a lot better with your milder grip, thereby getting more spin.

Also interesting to note is that Gasquet uses a full eastern 1hbh grip, and Kuerten used a semi-western 1hbh grip. Both are known for having some of the heaviest topspin backhands ever, but which of them do you reckon hit even more topspin than the other (taking the strings they used into consideration)?

Gasquet outclasses Kuerten, I think. He's just a machine, a phenomenon... I've never seen someone hit backhands as hard and with as much heft as Gasquet. For his days, Kuerton was the king -- and, even weirder, he was a king on clay with a one handed backhand --, but if you just measure the output, Gasquet tops him.

Regardless, you can change your grip if you want to. Personally, I did just that: I switched about half a bevel toward the semi-western grip and it's been wonderful for my game. It depends on what you want to do with your backhand, actually.

 

[BevelDevil]

I am experimenting switching between the full eastern 1hbh grip (where all my knuckles are lined up on the top bevel as if gripping a mountain bike handle) and a semi-western 1hbh grip (where it is basically a semi-western forehand grip turned over to hit backhands with).

Unusually, I am finding that I can get more topspin with my full eastern grip than with my semi-western grip. This seems to be because my hand is in the most secure position to really supinate heavily through contact in the full eastern grip, yet, if I turn over more to semi-western grip, I cannot supinate over as violently, because now only my thumb is supporting the bottom of the grip.

Does that seem legitimate or does this mean there is a problem with my semi-western 1hbh? Has anyone else found this? Does it mean I need a smaller racket grip size?

Also interesting to note is that Gasquet uses a full eastern 1hbh grip, and Kuerten used a semi-western 1hbh grip. Both are known for having some of the heaviest topspin backhands ever, but which of them do you reckon hit even more topspin than the other (taking the strings they used into consideration)?

When you say SW grip, are your knuckles half a bevel back from Eastern, or a full bevel back? Also, on your SW, are all your knuckles lined up like on your Eastern?

 

[NLBwell]

Yes, your descriptions in your first paragraph aren't consistent.

 

[Shroud]

My 2 cents is that I hit with both and get the same amount of spin maybe a bit more with the eastern.....but the semiwestern is a heavier ball.

You need more than just spin to create a heavy ball. The sw is a stronger grip and the angle is more severe so it is a heavier ball because it is harder.

 

[tennis_hack]

Shroud, there are only two elements to the 'heaviness' of a ball - pace and spin. If you say you get more spin with eastern yet hit heavier with sw, do you mean to say you get more pace with sw?

Beveldevil, sorry, with my sw grip all my pinky to middle knuckles are on the ridge between the top bevel and bevel 8, and my index knuckle is on bevel 8.

My default backhand grip has actually been sw and now I am experimenting with full eastern and seem to be getting more spin and was wondering why and if that means there was probably something wrong with my sw backhand?

 

[BevelDevil]

That's a full SW grip held in a "hammer" style, which is impractically extreme.

Your Eastern is generating more topspin probably because you are getting more racket head speed since you can loosen the wrist and still get the ball over the net using that grip.

Eastern should be just fine for lots of topspin, especially with that hammer grip (which is basically Gasquet's grip). No pro I'm aware of uses the SW grip that you described. It's way too extreme to hit through the ball.

But if you still want something more extreme than an Eastern, I suggest the "extreme Eastern" with your index knuckle on the ridge and the other knuckles on top.

If you still wanted to keep your index knuckle on bevel 8, you should still lighten your grip by moving your pinky knuckle to bevel 1 or 1.5 .

 

[Lukhas]

Ain't the grip used.
It's the player. Confidence, swingspeed, swing style.

This guy. Grip alone doesn't produce spin. Grip helps, but is only one factor out of many.

Anyway, I don't understand "semi-western 1HBH grip". I know "Extreme Eastern BH grip" (Gasquet, Henin), "Eastern BH grip" (Federer), or "Continental BH grip" (McEnroe, Tsonga when rushed), so...

 

[allenkau]

For me.. it depends who I am playing against...

For someone who hits a heavy ball to my 1hbh... or High to my strike zone. I tend to go towards Semi Western.

For someone who slices a lot and hits lower to my strike zone, I tend to go eastern.

 

[NLBwell]

BevelDevil is right. Eastern will work fine. What you were calling a semi-western is essentially a Western hammer grip like little kids use when they first pick a racket off the ground.

 

[Shroud]

Shroud, there are only two elements to the 'heaviness' of a ball - pace and spin. If you say you get more spin with eastern yet hit heavier with sw, do you mean to say you get more pace with sw?

Beveldevil, sorry, with my sw grip all my pinky to middle knuckles are on the ridge between the top bevel and bevel 8, and my index knuckle is on bevel 8.

My default backhand grip has actually been sw and now I am experimenting with full eastern and seem to be getting more spin and was wondering why and if that means there was probably something wrong with my sw backhand?

Yep more pace. I dont know where the miscommunication is but sw is a firmer grip at lest for me. Think about it. If you are falling and there is a wall in front of you, you put the palm of your hand on the wall to stop your fall and not the outside part of your hand. Sw is basically the palm behind the racket. Thats where i get more pace. If you were to ask me to hit the hardest backhand i can i would pick sw easily for the most pace. Most players dont expect a hard backhand reply.

Forget who made the point, but nothing wrong with using both. Actually i use eastern sw and continental on the backhand and sw, w, and continental on the forehand.

For service returns sw is better for me. Its stronger and you can block it back better. Also, call me lazy but with sw i am also in sw for the forehand. With less time to change grips i like not having to change.

I am also confused because hammer grip implies continental to me

 

[tennis_hack]

Yep more pace. I dont know where the miscommunication is but sw is a firmer grip at lest for me. Think about it. If you are falling and there is a wall in front of you, you put the palm of your hand on the wall to stop your fall and not the outside part of your hand. Sw is basically the palm behind the racket. Thats where i get more pace. If you were to ask me to hit the hardest backhand i can i would pick sw easily for the most pace. Most players dont expect a hard backhand reply.

Forget who made the point, but nothing wrong with using both. Actually i use eastern sw and continental on the backhand and sw, w, and continental on the forehand.

For service returns sw is better for me. Its stronger and you can block it back better. Also, call me lazy but with sw i am also in sw for the forehand. With less time to change grips i like not having to change.

I am also confused because hammer grip implies continental to me

I think in terms of this discussion, 'hammer grip' means when you have all of your knuckles lined up over the same bevel, instead of your index knuckle being on a different bevel to you other knuckles. Think gripping a mountain bike handle, not gripping an actual hammer.

What do you think is the reason you get less spin on your sw backhand than on your eastern backhand?

 

[LeeD]

Probably doesn't swing fast thru every single backhand.

 

[anubis]

You need to bend your knees, lower your body, shift your weight from back to front foot. You then need to make sure your swing path is low to high. Your racquet has to start low, lower than the trajectory of the ball, and finish high, so you're basically brushing up on the ball.

that's how I hit a topspin 1HBH. I agree with others, the grip doesn't matter.

 

[RetroSpin]

This guy. Grip alone doesn't produce spin. Grip helps, but is only one factor out of many.

Anyway, I don't understand "semi-western 1HBH grip". I know "Extreme Eastern BH grip" (Gasquet, Henin), "Eastern BH grip" (Federer), or "Continental BH grip" (McEnroe, Tsonga when rushed), so...

I didn't understand it either. Your descriptions are the way I learned it. Eastern for top, continental for slice.

I also have some trouble with the idea of supinating through contact. Sounds like a good way to spray balls all over the place. Supinate a little after contact maybe, but Fed keeps the 90 degree forearm to racquet relationship into his followthrough. Just saying...

 

[Shroud]

I think in terms of this discussion, 'hammer grip' means when you have all of your knuckles lined up over the same bevel, instead of your index knuckle being on a different bevel to you other knuckles. Think gripping a mountain bike handle, not gripping an actual hammer.

What do you think is the reason you get less spin on your sw backhand than on your eastern backhand?

Oh ok i guess i get that now

Well I for one have more potential for spin with the sw but because it has more pace i let off a bit like lee mentions.

And sorry i meant extreme eastern or actually a western forehand grip turned around.

I get more wrist action on the extreme eastern like throwing a frisbee

On the sw its more of a waving action so there can be more of a side spin component

They are two different motions and while most spin comes as mentioned from kneebends and low to high swings, the finish is very different. So the grip does matter.

For the op it doesnt sound like your sw is off.

Sw is better for high balls

 

[BevelDevil]

Obviously, other aspects of the stroke go into generating top spin.

However, I think it's an excessive exaggeration to say that "grip doesn't matter." A more extreme grip, when used correctly, can greatly facilitate top spin creation. If grip didn't matter, we'd all still be using continental for everything and not bother changing grips.

Think about it. If you are falling and there is a wall in front of you, you put the palm of your hand on the wall to stop your fall and not the outside part of your hand. Sw is basically the palm behind the racket. Thats where i get more pace. If you were to ask me to hit the hardest backhand i can i would pick sw easily for the most pace. Most players dont expect a hard backhand reply.

With an Eastern grip you can still move the heel of your palm ("heel pad") behind the handle. This is what Gasquet does. Dimitrov also uses an Eastern, but his heel pad is much higher. So there are different types of eastern grips based on where the heel pad is located (alternatively, where the other knuckles are located).

As I said before, I don't know of any pro that uses a full SW grip (knuckle on bevel 8), so I'm inclined to say such a grip is likely to be suboptimal (it also feels stiff and awkward to me).

I think the youtube coach Tom Avery advocates a SW grip, but it's a pistol-grip version (heel pad high) which greatly reduces its extremeness.

I am also confused because hammer grip implies continental to me

Sorry for the confusion, I know "hammer" is ambiguous. As tennis_hack said, I was referring to gripping the handle like a mountain bike, as opposed to how you might hold a steak knife.

 

[Shroud]

Obviously, other aspects of the stroke go into generating top spin.

However, I think it's an excessive exaggeration to say that "grip doesn't matter." A more extreme grip, when used correctly, can greatly facilitate top spin creation. If grip didn't matter, we'd all still be using continental for everything and not bother changing grips.




With an Eastern grip you can still move the heel of your palm ("heel pad") behind the handle. This is what Gasquet does. Dimitrov also uses an Eastern, but his heel pad is much higher. So there are different types of eastern grips based on where the heel pad is located (alternatively, where the other knuckles are located).

As I said before, I don't know of any pro that uses a full SW grip (knuckle on bevel 8), so I'm inclined to say such a grip is likely to be suboptimal (it also feels stiff and awkward to me).

I think the youtube coach Tom Avery advocates a SW grip, but it's a pistol-grip version (heel pad high) which greatly reduces its extremeness.




Sorry for the confusion, I know "hammer" is ambiguous. As tennis_hack said, I was referring to gripping the handle like a mountain bike, as opposed to how you might hold a steak knife.

Ok so i THINK we are on the same page about the grip but i dont get the motorcycle deal. I hold mine like steak knife in that the index finger is on a different bevel than the others but on bevel 8. Seems like what you are saying.

Anyhow at one time there were no pros using a sw or western forehand....

Its possible that i have some sort of double jointed arm though i don't think so. Anyhow it feels perfectly natural to me . One day if anyone actually answers my question about how to post a vid starting from step one ill post a vid and you let me know if it looks awkward

 

[Avles]

Shroud,

I think what BevelDevil means by "motorcycle" or "mountain bike" refers to the orientation of the wrist-- think about how the wrist would feel if the grip was a handlebar of a motorcycle or a mountain bike. Basically the idea is that the wrist-thumb angle is more acute than with the "steak knife" grip.

On a YouTube video (which I can no longer find) I saw an interesting way of finding the 1hbh grip: hold the racquet in your left armpit (for a righty) with the handle pointing forward, and grasp the handle (from above) with your right hand. This seems to put the hand naturally into an EBH grip with the "motorcycle" qualities BevelDevil is talking about.

By the way, the OP in this thread is another incarnation of banned poster Ehh/always_crosscourt/ etc. Not to go all Inspector Javert on this guy, but you'd think he could at least wait a couple weeks before making a new account...

 

[tennis_hack]

Shroud,

I think what BevelDevil means by "motorcycle" or "mountain bike" refers to the orientation of the wrist-- think about how the wrist would feel if the grip was a handlebar of a motorcycle or a mountain bike. Basically the idea is that the wrist-thumb angle is more acute than with the "steak knife" grip.

On a YouTube video (which I can no longer find) I saw an interesting way of finding the 1hbh grip: hold the racquet in your left armpit (for a righty) with the handle pointing forward, and grasp the handle (from above) with your right hand. This seems to put the hand naturally into an EBH grip with the "motorcycle" qualities BevelDevil is talking about.

By the way, the OP in this thread is another incarnation of banned poster Ehh/always_crosscourt/ etc. Not to go all Inspector Javert on this guy, but you'd think he could at least wait a couple weeks before making a new account...

Umm... what?

This is the first time I have ever joined a tennis forum.

 

[Avles]

Umm... what?

This is the first time I have ever joined a tennis forum.

My mistake, I had you confused with the poster "onehbh_fan," as seen in this thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=463441

That guy only lasted 4 posts before getting the re-ban, but fortunately you made your first appearance in that thread to pick up the conversation immediately after he got banned (and proceeded to make 30+ posts in your first 3 days).

And weirdly enough, both you and banned poster "Ehh" have a tendency to begin your posts with the word "Yeh":

Compare:

Yeh, the point is that the return is too high to smash until it comes down on the baseline, then the server has to hit the smash from the baseline, which he may miss, and if he doesn't miss, he still has no angles to work with and the distance it needs to travel means the returner has time to get a good play on it.

With:

Yeh, I really have issues with all three points.
The coach demonstrates a 45 degree open racket face, and says to maintain that even when the ball is, like, at a height most people would smash. So you end up literally lobbing back balls which you should have smashed,

But anyway, welcome to the forums, hope you enjoy your time here, good luck with that backhand!

 

[souledge]

I tried hitting with semi-western BH before......too much spin, kept netting everything except for one cord ball that, due to the immense spin, made it over after contact.

I promptly switched back to Eastern BH before making the switch full time to 2HBH.

Two pairs of grips that I know of where you don't move your hand to switch from FH and BH and shots are hit off the same face accordingly:

Full Western FH / Full Eastern BH

Semi-Western FH / Semi-Western BH

 

[BevelDevil]

Two pairs of grips that I know of where you don't move your hand to switch from FH and BH and shots are hit off the same face accordingly:

Full Western FH / Full Eastern BH

Semi-Western FH / Semi-Western BH

There's also:

Strong-SW FH / Extreme Eastern BH

 

[tennis_hack]

Obviously, other aspects of the stroke go into generating top spin.

However, I think it's an excessive exaggeration to say that "grip doesn't matter." A more extreme grip, when used correctly, can greatly facilitate top spin creation. If grip didn't matter, we'd all still be using continental for everything and not bother changing grips.




With an Eastern grip you can still move the heel of your palm ("heel pad") behind the handle. This is what Gasquet does. Dimitrov also uses an Eastern, but his heel pad is much higher. So there are different types of eastern grips based on where the heel pad is located (alternatively, where the other knuckles are located).

As I said before, I don't know of any pro that uses a full SW grip (knuckle on bevel 8), so I'm inclined to say such a grip is likely to be suboptimal (it also feels stiff and awkward to me).

I think the youtube coach Tom Avery advocates a SW grip, but it's a pistol-grip version (heel pad high) which greatly reduces its extremeness.




Sorry for the confusion, I know "hammer" is ambiguous. As tennis_hack said, I was referring to gripping the handle like a mountain bike, as opposed to how you might hold a steak knife.

Beveldevil, I am watching HD match highlights of Simon vs. Volandri;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvDEkO6v9cE

and if you zoom in and slo-mo certain backhand winner-replays such as around the 2min 41secs mark, I think you will see that Volandri has his index knuckle actually on the 8th bevel - so that is a full SW 1hbh grip.

But, does Volandri get more topspin with his sw 1hbh grip than Gasquet gets with his full eastern 1hbh grip? I wouldn't have thought so it. Does even Kuerten, with his sw 1hbh grip (and even if it is not full sw like Volandri's, it is certainly more extreme than Gasquet's grip) get more topspin than Gasquet? Again, I wouldn't have thought so.

Would you say that, past a certain 'extremeness' of grip (like full eastern), going round even more extreme gives the grip more stability, but reduces the amount of spin you can get? The reason I'd suggest this is that when you go round to sw 1hbh grip, you have more of your palm behind the handle, but only your thumb is really supporting the bottom of the handle, making aggressive supination through contact (the kind that Gasquet does), more uncomfortable than it is with a full eastern 1hbh grip...?

 

[BevelDevil]

I couldn't see anything in that clip. Post up a screen shot or other pic if you can.

I think this is him, and it looks like extreme eastern, not SW.

 

[tennis_hack]

I couldn't see anything in that clip. Post up a screen shot or other pic if you can.

I think this is him, and it looks like extreme eastern, not SW.

I'm not sure how to post a screen shot.

I'd recommend downloading the vid in HD from keevid or some other app, then playing it back in quicktime or some other media player that lets you skip forward frame by frame.

This is better than still pictures, because you can never be sure if Volandri was in the process of adjusting his grip when the picture was taken.

I don't know why you've tried to convince yourself so much that the sw 1hbh grip does not exist on the pro tour?

Anyway, I'm more interested in hearing what you think re my previous post about the full eastern offering more topspin potential than the sw...?

 

[BevelDevil]

I'm not sure how to post a screen shot.

on windows CTRL+ALT+PrintScreen. On a mac, google it.

This is better than still pictures, because you can never be sure if Volandri was in the process of adjusting his grip when the picture was taken.

So you admit this looks like extreme eastern in the picture? Because the vast majority of the time the grip change has already been completed by this phase of the stroke (and usually well before).

I don't know why you've tried to convince yourself so much that the sw 1hbh grip does not exist on the pro tour?

Because I've never seen evidence of it. Why should I believe it if I haven't seen evidence? Or should I take it on faith?

Post some evidence here and I'll believe it. I think there's some chance someone out there uses it. I just haven't really seen it, except perhaps one photo of Amalie Mauresmo (which contradicted other evidence, though).

Anyway, I'm more interested in hearing what you think re my previous post about the full eastern offering more topspin potential than the sw...?

I think it relates to the ability to supinate in a way that brushes up and through the ball. Beyond some point of extremeness of grip, supination no longer results in this desired motion, and instead moves the strings away from the ball.