Muguruza’s fear of lobs

[travlerajm]

I watched the last half of the first set and the first half of the second set. At that point it was obvious that Muguruza was going to go down meekly with no plan B.

But what shocked me most about the women’s final was Muguruza’s general ineptitude against medium to high lobs. On medium high lightly topspun defensive lobs that most players would welcome as an easy overhead from just inside the service line, she tried to back up and hit a groundstroke out of the air from behind the service line, wasting the putaway opportunity and leaving herself vulnerable.

And on higher lobs, she was even worse, wasting the overhead opp by letting it bounce, and wasting the easy baseline overhead opportunity after the bounce by hitting a groundstroke after the bounce.

Kenin used these high balls to get out of trouble and reset the point over and over. This was actually a major key to why Kenin won.
For a former world number one, this ineptitude in dealing with lobs and moonballs was embarrassing.

 

[smalahove]

Most WTA players can’t really handle overheads, and most prefer to go for the more difficult shot, the drive volley, and often on with a two handed backhand. That is very, very dependent on your mental strength to execute properly.

Add to that, most WTA handle high balls to the baseline very poorly. Smart players such as Halep use this to her advantage by baiting the opponent to hit a big shot, but they lack the upper body strength and produce a shorter, attackable ball.

This happens also on the ATP circuit, but most ATP players have the ability to drive through the ball for a clean winner from the baseline, on a high, «dead» ball.

 

[Born_to_slice]

Mug soiled her underpants, thus all the df's and insecurity. WTA is nowadays super lazy. Anyone with a smidgen of talent who trains for short-while can make it big.

 

[Bartelby]

So you're a gender-biased talent-denialist as well. How surprising!

Mug soiled her underpants, thus all the df's and insecurity. WTA is nowadays super lazy. Anyone with a smidgen of talent who trains for short-while can make it big.

 

[smalahove]

Mug soiled her underpants, thus all the df's and insecurity. WTA is nowadays super lazy. Anyone with a smidgen of talent who trains for short-while can make it big.

Reg Kenin, I totally disagree she’s a dime a dozen. The tennis she played being down 0-40 in the second set, 2-2 in games, was mindblowing. 5 huge winners in a row, and many of them constructed beautifully and executed with a champion’s aggression. Mugs didn’t play bad on any of these; Kenin just dominated in those points.

 

[Bartelby]

Kenin's groundstroke play was clearly superior to that of Mugaruza's, and it's clear, in retrospect obviously, that the latter's serve won her the first set.

 

[denoted]

I was just watching some college women's tennis, and the overhead avoidance was quite noticeable. I should say that the forehand drives they used instead worked in pretty much every case.

 

[Born_to_slice]

Reg Kenin, I totally disagree she’s a dime a dozen. The tennis she played being down 0-40 in the second set, 2-2 in games, was mindblowing. 5 huge winners in a row, and many of them constructed beautifully and executed with a champion’s aggression. Mugs didn’t play bad on any of these; Kenin just dominated in those points.

There was some good tennis from the kid but that don't change a thing. A bit more consistent aggressive player would've buried her. Hell, I even think if mug didn't gave up 3 games with df's she would've won. OTOH, Kenin won the match 100% deservedly. She achieved maximum with the talent she has.

So you're a gender-biased talent-denialist as well. How surprising!

You're a whole package. Not a shred of original though. Perfect useful idiot.

 

[Zoolander]

They need to learn from Djokovic, whos smashes were diabolically bad before he put a lot of effort into improving them.

Now they are just bordering on awful. If he can do it, they can too.

 

[Bartelby]

So says someone who reads off climate denialist cheat sheets, and thinks himself proficient at science as a consequence!

You're a whole package. Not a shred of original though. Perfect useful idiot.

 

[Bartelby]

Contact lenses are an issue for him though. His eyes were watering during his last match. It must play some role.

They need to learn from Djokovic, whos smashes were diabolically bad before he put a lot of effort improving them.

Now they are just bordering on awful. If he can do it, they can too.

 

[Sudacafan]

Could we sexistly say that there are tennis shots that are intrinsically harder for women to master?

 

[Tshooter]

 

[Bartelby]

I seriously doubt that is the case. I certainly can't think of any.

Could we sexistly say that there are tennis shots that are intrinsically harder for women to master?

 

[r2473]

Could we sexistly say that there are tennis shots that are intrinsically harder for women to master?

No, everyone is the same.

I seriously doubt that is the case. I certainly can't think of any.

See, told you

 

[Bartelby]

Told me what exactly? This is a sentence without a subject. Even if you are a world-class Platonist.

See, told you

 

[Tennease]

She could be having a problem with shoulder or something. The serve is weak and double fault prone. She should stop the screaming too.


Edit: she was treated for back injury during the match.
https://wwos.nine.com.au/videos/tennis/muguruza-battling-injury-niggle/ck63fvyln00690ilcitfozap0

 

[insideguy]

Could we sexistly say that there are tennis shots that are intrinsically harder for women to master?

Here is my theory. I could be wrong on this but hear me out. I have noticed that this shot has worked its way into the womens game in the last 5 to 10 years. Women use to do overheads all the time. My guess is that this is what coaches are teaching so that their players maintain a good offensive position after the hit the shot. As opposed to an overheard. Men are more powerful so percentage wise an overhead is a very effective shot. But womens overheads are not so its probably a higher percentage to win a point on a drive volley. Just a guess. I could be totally wrong.

 

[Azure]

I think we have immense talent at the top but they haven't been trained differently. That said, the depth in WTA is much better than the depth in the men's game. This has changed the last decade or so.

 

[Azure]

Could we sexistly say that there are tennis shots that are intrinsically harder for women to master?

I don't think there is anything sexist about that. Biomechanics is vastly different for men and women. If there are shots that women can adapt but do it ineffectively, I would pick the slice and on the run forehands.

 

[King No1e]

Can't spell Muguruza without MUG

 

[r2473]

the depth in WTA is much better than the depth in the men's game.

It is?

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

Yeah I noticed that saw well.
Kenin on the other hand would attack the floater or junkball delivered.

 

[Azure]

It is?

I certainly think so. The women's game does not rely on 35 year olds anymore. The next gen is not a nearly 27 year old while 26 years old is considered a veteran. The only problem is playing styles. If even one player emerges who can play one shot better than the rest, that player will be a dominant force.

 

[r2473]

I certainly think so. The women's game does not rely on 35 year olds anymore. The next gen is not a nearly 27 year old while 26 years old is considered a veteran. The only problem is playing styles. If even one player emerges who can play one shot better than the rest, that player will be a dominant force.

But that’s not depth. That’s just who’s on top.

 

[Azure]

But that’s not depth. That’s just who’s on top.

The top 50 of the women's game seems to me better than the top 50 of the men's game

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I don't think there is anything sexist about that. Biomechanics is vastly different for men and women. If there are shots that women can adapt but do it ineffectively, I would pick the slice and on the run forehands.

A certain German great would disagree with that last sentence of yours and she didn't seem to be unusually muscular or anything, especially not compared to some of the big babe hitters.

I think there is some lazy coaching going on in the WTA. We are starting to see the tide turn with more players using slices, drops and volleys again but as I said in another post, Muguruza was trained in the big babe model of tennis so she doesn't have these shots. She generates short balls from the opponents by overpowering them and then steps in to take the swing volley, but that's hardly all court tennis. Like other big babes, she uses her height to serve decently well but it's not what it can and should be with her physique. It's not like say Sabine Lisicki towers over her but she had a much better serve. Or Pliskova for that matter. OTOH with Kenin we see the advantages of an all round solid game and how it can even overcome hitches in some of her strokes.

In the same vein, there's nothing like women can't hit overheads well. Navratilova could hit smashes from almost any corner of the court. It's all about training players to do it and coaches think or used to think that teaching women to bash groundies was enough. Surely the last couple of years should give pause to that myopic approach.

 

[Azure]

A certain German great would disagree with that last sentence of yours and she didn't seem to be unusually muscular or anything, especially not compared to some of the big babe hitters.

I think there is some lazy coaching going on in the WTA. We are starting to see the tide turn with more players using slices, drops and volleys again but as I said in another post, Muguruza was trained in the big babe model of tennis so she doesn't have these shots. She generates short balls from the opponents by overpowering them and then steps in to take the swing volley, but that's hardly all court tennis. Like other big babes, she uses her height to serve decently well but it's not what it can and should be with her physique. It's not like say Sabine Lisicki towers over her but she had a much better serve. Or Pliskova for that matter. OTOH with Kenin we see the advantages of an all round solid game and how it can even overcome hitches in some of her strokes.

In the same vein, there's nothing like women can't hit overheads well. Navratilova could hit smashes from almost any corner of the court. It's all about training players to do it and coaches think or used to think that teaching women to bash groundies was enough. Surely the last couple of years should give pause to that myopic approach.

I agree wholeheartedly to the point that training in WTA is hugely lacking. I wish the likes of Henin take to coaching. The advantage that a Heninesque drive backhand on the women's tour would provide to a player would be huge.

I do think on-the-run forehands with the speed at which the sport is being played today can be a bit of a difficulty in today's game- man or woman but for a woman, moreso. Both Steffi and Pete had fantastic winners on this particular shot but it was a different era. The shots that can be fundamentally more difficult for a woman as opposed to a man would be the serve. Serena, Sharapova and the likes have been successful at it in parts because of their heights and power. In fact Serena has won matches relying on that single shot of hers. A Kenin at 5'7 would find it so much more harder and would have to rely on placement and not power. Women's game simply requires better coaching strategies.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I agree wholeheartedly to the point that training in WTA is hugely lacking. I wish the likes of Henin take to coaching. The advantage that a Heninesque drive backhand on the women's tour would provide to a player would be huge.

I do think on-the-run forehands with the speed at which the sport is being played today can be a bit of a difficulty in today's game- man or woman but for a woman, moreso. Both Steffi and Pete had fantastic winners on this particular shot but it was a different era. The shots that can be fundamentally more difficult for a woman as opposed to a man would be the serve. Serena, Sharapova and the likes have been successful at it in parts because of their heights and power. In fact Serena has won matches relying on that single shot of hers. A Kenin at 5'7 would find it so much more harder and would have to rely on placement and not power. Women's game simply requires better coaching strategies.

I agree partly with this but will point out that for a player like Kenin, an on the run forehand is easier because she is short and isn't long legged. Her balance is great and she can get around the court. We have been seeing that some of the new slam winners aren't exactly big babes while the archetype big babe hope, Sabalenka, isn't faring well. So we are reverting to a norm where movement and shot tolerance matter rather than just pure power.

 

[Azure]

I agree partly with this but will point out that for a player like Kenin, an on the run forehand is easier because she is short and isn't long legged. Her balance is great and she can get around the court. We have been saying that some of the new slam winners aren't exactly big babes while the archetype big babe hope, Sabalenka, isn't faring well. So we are reverting to a norm where movement and shot tolerance matter rather than just pure power.

Amen to that. I would love to see it happening and WTA to me right now is more promising than the ATP. It's almost like 98'-08' can happen again.

 

[Bartelby]

Can't spell Djokovic without thinking about JOKE for that matter.

Can't spell Muguruza without MUG

 

[King No1e]

Can't spell Djokovic without thinking about JOKE for that matter.

 

[Bukowski]

The top 50 of the women's game seems to me better than the top 50 of the men's game

Thats also not depth