Nadal has the highest winning % in the Open Era

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Well, I also think that he was actually better then... But that's an eye test so I'm not trying to convince you of it.
Sure but not convincing enough. Djoko had 5 years beating up on 20+ top 10. Fed could only be at his best for 2 years?? The guy with 20 slams and most weeks at #1? So I am throwing in the other obvious factor, which is: a lot more difficult to dominate with the other big 4 around.
 
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veroniquem

Bionic Poster
To be as specific as possible for the people who still don't get it: there is more than 14% difference between Nadal's winning % on clay and his % on hard and grass. For Djoko, there is less than 5% difference between his % on clay, grass and hard.
So, free TTW summer test ;), which one of the 2 points to extreme consistency across the board and which one points to extreme peak in specific events ? I know it's hard but you can do it :D
 
To be as specific as possible for the people who still don't get it: there is more than 14% difference between Nadal's winning % on clay and his % on hard and grass. For Djoko, there is less than 5% difference between his % on clay, grass and hard.
So, free TTW summer test ;), which one of the 2 points to extreme consistency across the board and which one points to extreme peak in specific events ? I know it's hard but you can do it :D

You are likely to be accused of being "unobjective" by some Nadal fans who don't notice the red line that the spell check helpfully adds underneath words, and of disrespecting an injured Bull who plays tennis by implying that he's a less good all-rounder than Djokovic.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
You are likely to be accused of being "unobjective" by some Nadal fans who don't notice the red line that the spell check helpfully adds underneath words, and of disrespecting an injured Bull who plays tennis by implying that he's a less good all-rounder than Djokovic.
I am not "implying" it, I am saying loud and clear that stats (and records) show Djokovic is better all around. On the other hand, Nadal is a lot better in his specialty (clay). That does not count for nothing. To each their own strength, you cannot be the best at everything.
 
I am not "implying" it, I am saying loud and clear that stats show Djokovic is better all around. On the other end, Nadal is a lot better in his specialty (clay). That does not count for nothing. To each their own strength, you cannot be the best at everything.

I agree with you overall. But I would say that for Nadal, there is a big gap between his best surface (clay) and his next best surface (grass?) but a very small gap between his second-best surface (grass?) and his weakest surface (hard?) Indeed, I am not 100% sure that grass is stronger for him than is hard. For Djokovic, there is only a small gap between his best surface (hard) and his next-best surface (grass) but there is also a small gap between his next-best surface (hard) and his weakest surface (clay). I think it's because of that fact that some Nadal fans try to deny that Djokovic is more versatile by saying that Nadal has no surface as weak as Djokovic's clay. Hence we often see the factoid about Nadal winning two Slams on every surface and Djokovic not doing so. There are three big problems with that argument, however:

1. There are two Slams on hard courts and only one Slam on clay. So, Nadal had more opportunities to win two Slams on hard courts than Djokovic did on clay.
2. Relatedly, the Australian Open and the US Open are different Slams and should not be subsumed into each other. Nadal only has one title at the Australian Open. Until he gets a second, he should not be counted as doing better there than Djokovic has done at Roland Garros.
3. It involves double counting Nadal's clay-court dominance. You are absolutely right that Nadal is a lot better in his speciality and he should get credit for that. But the credit for that is pointing out that Nadal has 12 Roland Garros titles to Djokovic's 7 Australian Open titles. The reason that Djokovic only has one Roland Garros title is that Nadal is so dominant at Roland Garros. If it weren't for Nadal, Djokovic would almost certainly have at least two Roland Garros titles and likely more. If Nadal had to play someone as good as he is on clay on either grass or hard, grass/hard Nadal would be very unlikely to pick up multiple titles at the event. Nadal should not get both dominance points and versatility points out of his Roland Garros record.
 

TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
Sure but not convincing enough. Djoko had 5 years beating up on 20+ top 10. Fed could only be at his best for 2 years?? The guy with 20 slams and most weeks at #1? So I am throwing in the other obvious factor, which is: a lot more difficult to dominate with the other big 4 around.
Well yeah, I kinda said.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
He has surpassed 83% (for the first time in his career I believe) at Wimbledon and sits just above Borg who is at 82.73%. Djokovic is also closing in on Borg at 82.67% while Federer has surpassed 82%. Where do you think the Big 3 will finish at in their careers and at what Rank?

Another way Rafa is superior to anyone else in history
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I agree with you overall. But I would say that for Nadal, there is a big gap between his best surface (clay) and his next best surface (grass?) but a very small gap between his second-best surface (grass?) and his weakest surface (hard?) Indeed, I am not 100% sure that grass is stronger for him than is hard. For Djokovic, there is only a small gap between his best surface (hard) and his next-best surface (grass) but there is also a small gap between his next-best surface (hard) and his weakest surface (clay). I think it's because of that fact that some Nadal fans try to deny that Djokovic is more versatile by saying that Nadal has no surface as weak as Djokovic's clay. Hence we often see the factoid about Nadal winning two Slams on every surface and Djokovic not doing so. There are three big problems with that argument, however:

1. There are two Slams on hard courts and only one Slam on clay. So, Nadal had more opportunities to win two Slams on hard courts than Djokovic did on clay.
2. Relatedly, the Australian Open and the US Open are different Slams and should not be subsumed into each other. Nadal only has one title at the Australian Open. Until he gets a second, he should not be counted as doing better there than Djokovic has done at Roland Garros.
3. It involves double counting Nadal's clay-court dominance. You are absolutely right that Nadal is a lot better in his speciality and he should get credit for that. But the credit for that is pointing out that Nadal has 12 Roland Garros titles to Djokovic's 7 Australian Open titles. The reason that Djokovic only has one Roland Garros title is that Nadal is so dominant at Roland Garros. If it weren't for Nadal, Djokovic would almost certainly have at least two Roland Garros titles and likely more. If Nadal had to play someone as good as he is on clay on either grass or hard, grass/hard Nadal would be very unlikely to pick up multiple titles at the event. Nadal should not get both dominance points and versatility points out of his Roland Garros record.
Don't even get me started on the slams. It's not just the fans that do it, it' s the journalists too. You know, the "oh Nadal just needs two slams to match Fed". I couldn't care less about Fed personally but I cannot stand hypocrisy, dishonesty or lazy thinking. Total # of slams is not the only reason why Fed has the best record in slams. There are 4 slams. Fed has a dominant record in 3 out of the 4 on top of winning all 4 (he has 5+ in 3 of the 4: tie record at USO ( 5), absolute record at W (8) and close to record at AO (6). That is a dominant record in slams overall.
Nadal has 12 RG and 1 to 3 titles in the other 3 slams. That is domination at 1 slam. 1 slam out of the 4 cannot equate overall domination, no matter how much one dominates at that one slam. So, no, Nadal doesn't have to just win more slams to be in the same conversation as Fed, what he needs is to win more titles at the other slams.
ETA: about your other points, I'm not sure I understand your surface argument. Djoko's winning % on clay is higher than Nadal's % on either hard or grass. So how does that translate into Djoko's weak surface being weaker? For the titles in slams per surface, yes, I've argued it in a lot of other threads. You just have to take into account that 50% of slams are on hard and 25% on clay. Not fair but there 's nothing one can do about it, especially not claim that I'm just gonna pretend 25 =50. And overall, it's the same thing, there are a lot more (tier 1) events on hard than on clay or grass, so unless you factor that in, you are just trolling.
 
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TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
I got your point about "eye test" (and I watched his matches too in 2004-06) but apparently you didn't get mine about Fed's prime being as short as 2 years, so most likely, there are other factors.
I count around 4 years myself. But that betrays this top 10 thingymejiggy that's going on here.
 
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