Serve speeds in the USO F

[shakes1975]

In the 2013 USO F, the serve stats showed the following speeds for the 1st serve.

Fastest:
Nadal - 125
Djok - 127

Average:
Nadal - 111
Djok - 113

IMO, that is quite slow given today's measuring techniques.

As a comparision, I saw the 1989 Wim F between Becker-Edberg, and the serve stats showed Becker's fastest 1st serve at 127 mph, and average 1st serve speed as 116 mph. If we had used today's measuring techniques, I'm pretty sure that would've come to 120-121 mph average speed.

I'm wondering if there is a trend towards lower 1st serve speed given that the emphasis on a serve oriented game has been slowly reduced ? That could be resulting in the huge number of rallies we're seeing.

 

[merwy]

What do you mean? Why do you think that the old equipment measures speed more slowly than new equipment?

 

[LeeD]

Different player's serve different speeds?
Connors topped at 117, averaged 105.
McEnroe a higher top, averaged 105.
Milos, Groth, Anderson, and Isner topped higher, you think?

 

[10is]

What do you mean? Why do you think that the old equipment measures speed more slowly than new equipment?

Not "old" equipment per se (although equipment-based variance is an issue), but rather the fact that till the early/mid 90s serving speed used to be measured as the ball crossed the net, rather than at the point of impact as it's measured today, hence the erroneously contextualized statistical trend that there has been a "prolific increase" in the avg. serving speed since the 80s/90s.

 

[LeeD]

Maybe you should watch a match more often.
Old daze, like the '70's, some players bombed first serve into the 140's, while other's poked it in at 105.
Second serves ranged from 120's down to pedestrian 70's.
What's changed today?

 

[victorcruz]

It's always windy here at the US Open. Especially in September.

 

[10is]

Maybe you should watch a match more often.
Old daze, like the '70's, some players bombed first serve into the 140's, while other's poked it in at 105.
Second serves ranged from 120's down to pedestrian 70's.
What's changed today?

I was referring to the following:

referenced in this thread.

 

[shakes1975]

What do you mean? Why do you think that the old equipment measures speed more slowly than new equipment?

In the '90's,speed used to be measured as the ball crossed the net, rather than at the point of impact. Obviously, the ball would've lost more speed near the net than close to the point of impact.

 

[big ted]

i suppose since nobody s/v's , a hard serve isnt as important anymore since the returner can just block it back deep and neutralize it.

 

[dominikk1985]

Different player's serve different speeds?
Connors topped at 117, averaged 105.
McEnroe a higher top, averaged 105.
Milos, Groth, Anderson, and Isner topped higher, you think?

yes. nadal and novak are just not top end velocity servers. that doesn't mean they are bad servers just as greg maddux wasn't a bad pitcher because he didn't throw 98. just a different style of play.

if karlovic, isner, anderson, raonic or even just berdych or tsonga would make finals the average serve speed would be a lot higher.

of course becker had higher relative (racket technology plus measuring at the baseline instead over the net for today's players) velocity than novak and rafa but he also was a very different players.

if you look at the defensive baseliners of that era (like muster or brugera) they would serve a lot slower than today's grinders.

 

[dominikk1985]

What do you mean? Why do you think that the old equipment measures speed more slowly than new equipment?

old equipment used to measure over the net, while they now measure over the baseline directly after contact. by the time the ball is over the net is already has lost a little speed due to air resistance. not much but measurable (probably 5-10 mph but not sure).

 

[LeeD]

Whereever they decide to measure, it makes almost NO difference.
PanchoGonzales was reputed to serve into the lowest 130's.
ColinDibley, and older model SamGroth, served into the highest 140's, and had the fastest serve in the late '70's.
Most of the Wilson Pro Team served into the lower 130's.
TOP amateur 129, but 4th place didn't break 120.
Same as today.

 

[timnz]

Very clear that speed guns are reading things as being faster now

What do you mean? Why do you think that the old equipment measures speed more slowly than new equipment?

It is very clear that speed guns are reading things faster than they were in the 80's and 90's. Look at Goran's service. The fastest he was clocked during his playing career at 136-138 mph. At 40 years age with modern speed guns he has been clocked at around 145 mph. McEnroe at his peak wasn't getting over 120 mph - but in his 50's has been clocked at 125 mph. It's pretty obvious. I would say that the guns were reading at least 10 mph slower back then, probably more.

 

[LeeD]

Goran used a top/slice mostly during his match playing days. He learned to hit flat later in life.
Same with McEnroe, but he used a slow flat serve in addition to his hooking top/slice during his playing days, and learned to hit dead flat later in his life. Mac didn't want to hit fast, he was coming to net and needed some time.

 

[Le Master]

It is very clear that speed guns are reading things faster than they were in the 80's and 90's. Look at Goran's service. The fastest he was clocked during his playing career at 136-138 mph. At 40 years age with modern speed guns he has been clocked at around 145 mph. McEnroe at his peak wasn't getting over 120 mph - but in his 50's has been clocked at 125 mph. It's pretty obvious. I would say that the guns were reading at least 10 mph slower back then, probably more.

I'll have to research this, but I thought I heard that up until the 2000s, serves were typically radared in the service box, as opposed to today where they are radared as the ball crosses the net. Again, I'm stating this as fact, but I feel like I've heard it claimed a number of times. That could explain any differential.

 

[timnz]

I'll have to research this, but I thought I heard that up until the 2000s, serves were typically radared in the service box, as opposed to today where they are radared as the ball crosses the net. Again, I'm stating this as fact, but I feel like I've heard it claimed a number of times. That could explain any differential.

Wouldn't that mean a slowing down of service speeds, rather than an increasing? If it was the opposite to what you are saying, it would make more sense.

 

[LeeD]

Either way, it's about the same from 1977 thru to the present.
Groth can hit into the 145's, as could ColinDibley.
Some guys hit faster than Groth now, but nobody hit faster than Dibley then.
Average top 10 player with an average serve is mid 130's then, it's still mid 130's now. Gottfried, Stockton, and Rameriz were around 6'2" tall. All were timed into the 130's, but match play, more like lowest 120's.

 

[Bender]

Take into account less powerful strings, more powerful frames and a bigger emphasis on spin.

 

[LeeD]

How about....the majority of modern pros are in better shape than before, but that might not affect the AlphaMale of yesteryears.
Or, sweetspot on old rackets were higher, leading to longer leverage on serves.
Or, racket's today tend to be lighter in weight, and easier to swing.
But the readings haven't changed significantly at all.

 

[10is]

Do people actually bother reading prior posts in a thread before rushing to opine willy nilly?

 

[mbm0912]

Whereever they decide to measure, it makes almost NO difference.
PanchoGonzales was reputed to serve into the lowest 130's.
ColinDibley, and older model SamGroth, served into the highest 140's, and had the fastest serve in the late '70's.
Most of the Wilson Pro Team served into the lower 130's.
TOP amateur 129, but 4th place didn't break 120.
Same as today.

Did they not put spaces between their names back then?

 

[shakes1975]

i suppose since nobody s/v's , a hard serve isnt as important anymore since the returner can just block it back deep and neutralize it.

True, but a hard serve can reduce the number of rallies. I believe the large number of rallies these guys play today is because of their serve being somewhat slower.

 

[dman72]

Do people actually bother reading prior posts in a thread before rushing to opine willy nilly?

No, because some people here are obviously mentally deranged, and it's starting to make this particular part of the forum unbearable.