The different 2hbh's of various pro's...

[Ehh]

This article helps illustrate the various types of 2hbh's you'll see various pro's hit;

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/..._complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

At contact, some hit with both arms straight (Nadal), some hit with both arms bent (Simon), and some hit with one arm bent and one arm straight (Djokovic).

1). Nadal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ejJFR5HpQ
2). Simon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbA8ATU4Q9o
3). Djokovic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

However, no-one has mentioned the definitive advantages and disadvantages of each style...

For a given grip combination, does hitting with both arms straight result in the most topspin? Hitting with both arms bent produces the least topspin, and hitting with one arm bent and one arm straight is in between?

And what else does the hitting structure determine about the result of the stroke?

Or maybe both arms bent at contact in a 2hbh is actually just technically wrong, and the players who use it (Venus Williams, Gilles Simon) have good backhands despite their technique, not because of it?

 

[heninfan99]

Thanks for sharing this. I was hoping one stroke would be easy but no even the two-hander has all these details to it. I noticed Fognini has an abbreviated back swing on both forehand and bh which might be good to try to buy some extra time.

I also like the way Nalbandian finishes the stroke. He doesn't go over the shoulder, just half way across his body and out in front.

 

[matchmaker]

Thanks for this article. An extremely interesting read.

Actually I had started to ponder a little about doublehanded backhand technique myself. I am a righthanded player with quite a high level of ambidextrosity. Because of some injuries I have had to the right arm, I have played as a lefty for extended periods and now my right arm is okay, I often still prefer to play lefty, even though my shots are definitely harder with my right hand.

But, last week I was hitting with a friend an changing from right to left every couple of points. One of the strange things I noticed is that my backhand works differently on each side. Actually I normally hit a onehander on the right side, however, when I grew up, I was taught a doublehanded backhand and it was a big weapon at that time. So for fun I was hitting a few righthanded doublehanded backhands, but they felt so different from my lefthanded doublehanded backhand.

In terms of this article on the right hand side I was applying the straight straigt technique, whereas on the left hand side I was using the bent/straight technique. I then tried to apply the bent/straight technique to the right hand as I felt it had more potential and it was basically a whole remodeling of the stroke, with everything that the article mentioned. More shoulder action for the top arm, higher contact point, maybe even further forward. One thing I noticed too is that the "jumping backhand" just like Nalbandian and Rios sometimes do is only possible for the bent/straight technique, so it seems that even weight shift is affected by these doublehanded backhand technique.

Basically the straight/straight version is the least ambidextrous technique. It is mostly based on a dominating top hand that leads the stroke and the bottom hand just adds some power and stability. In the bent/straight version, there is much more coordination between both hands and a more important role for the bottom hand with more shoulder turn. The bottom hand leads certainly an important part of the stroke.

 

[GoaLaSSo]

That was a pretty interesting article.

I think a lot of this is based on the grip each pro is using. Using an eastern forehand grip on your backhand makes it pretty difficult to hit any style other than bent/bent.

Using a continental grip most naturally would make you a bent/straight, but it can also work with straight/straight. Using an eastern backhand grip is straight/straight, but works with bent/straight.

 

[kishnabe]

Ah you know you should not take articles from TP. Unless it is the free ones.

I don't know how you sneak through that one.

 

[DolgoSantoro]

Ah you know you should not take articles from TP. Unless it is the free ones.

I don't know how you sneak through that one.

So far as I know it is a free article. At least it was when I read it several months ago.

I thought it was an interesting read. Due to a slightly unusual grip combination I hit bent/bent. My backhand is often my stronger shot depending on the day, so it has worked out well. I wonder how someone would purposefully go about changing their arm configuration?

 

[kishnabe]

So far as I know it is a free article. At least it was when I read it several months ago.

I thought it was an interesting read. Due to a slightly unusual grip combination I hit bent/bent. My backhand is often my stronger shot depending on the day, so it has worked out well. I wonder how someone would purposefully go about changing their arm configuration?

Which configuration do you use? I have tried all of them....but only the straight/straight one is comfortable with me. bevel 1 for both arms....It forces me to take the ball earlier.


One handers come naturally but I want those penetrating 2 handers .

 

[Dimcorner]

Nice article.

I keep switching back between a 1hbh and a straight/straight 2hbh. I seem to get more spin from a 2hbh but better angles and disguise with the 1hbh.

 

[Ehh]

Nice article.

I keep switching back between a 1hbh and a straight/straight 2hbh. I seem to get more spin from a 2hbh but better angles and disguise with the 1hbh.

Do you guys think straight/straight, straight/bent, or bent/bent has any relevance in topspin production?

 

[DolgoSantoro]

Which configuration do you use? I have tried all of them....but only the straight/straight one is comfortable with me. bevel 1 for both arms....It forces me to take the ball earlier.


One handers come naturally but I want those penetrating 2 handers .

I use an Aussie grip for my dominant hand (almost but not quite continental) and a semi-western for my off hand. It's the only thing that I've ever tried that's been remotely comfortable and it causes me to hit bent/bent. I haven't videotaped myself playing in a long time but if I had to guess what my backhand looks like I'd probably compare it to Kim Clijsters'. I can get a decent amount of spin with it and I can pull people off the court with it in crosscourt rallies. A bit trickier to go up the line but still possible.

Do you guys think straight/straight, straight/bent, or bent/bent has any relevance in topspin production?

Possibly, although I wouldn't try to fit any of them into a box. Nadal and Agassi both hit Straight/Straight and there's obviously a massive difference between the spin that they hit with, even adjusting for strings and such. I'd say grip and swingpath are probably more important at the end of the day.

 

[JohnYandell]

Guys,

That article is free no problem. I don't think the corelation to look at is between the hitting arms and spin though. All the good two-handers can spin the hell out of the ball--though in general the two hander is much flatter than the forehand and often, the one-hander as well.

Certain hitting arm combinations require different grips. This is first fundamental key to understand. You can have a weak, near forehandish grip with the bottom hand if you are bent/bent. That's the one that is most like an opposite arm forehand.

But if you are bent/straight or straight/straight there is more bottom arm pull and you need more of a continental or backhand grip. The conflict between grip structure and hitting arm structure was the fundamental flaw in Roddick's 2 hander.

Brian Gordon believes that bent/straight (or straightish...) is optimum, which may be true. My observation though is that this is a something that is sort of inherent to the individual player for whatever reason.

The best plan is to film yourself, figure out your current or natural hitting arm structure, adjust the grips if necessary and experiment from there.

 

[BevelDevil]

Nadal and Agassi both hit Straight/Straight and there's obviously a massive difference between the spin that they hit with, even adjusting for strings and such. I'd say grip and swingpath are probably more important at the end of the day.

Two big differences between Agassi and Nadal (aside from grip) is that Agassi's bottom wrist stays straight while Nadal's is bent, and Agassi pronates his bottom forearm on the backswing. Those two factors make Agassi's bh much more like a 1hbh than Nadal's.

 

[JohnYandell]

Actually the spin values on Agassi's and Nadal's backhands are similar, around 2000 rpm average.

 

[Ehh]

Thanks John - you have spin data on the backhands of the various pro's?

Do you mind telling who has the most spin out of all 2-handed backhands? And who has the most spin out of all 1-handed backhands?

It would be amazing to know how many RPM's the likes of Gulbis, Almagro, Gasquet and Wawrinka average!!

 

[JohnYandell]

Some of that data is on the site. Haven't got time to summarize it here.

 

[Al Czervik]

Those two factors make Agassi's bh much more like a 1hbh than Nadal's.

I remember Agassi criticized Roddick by saying Roddick was hitting too much of a left handed forehand than essentially letting the right hand be predominant and using the left as a safety and guide.

I know this sounds crazy because his shot is so good, but Nadal should basically be thrown out of all of these conversations since he is a righty everywhere else in life, so that "backhand" is really another forehand since he is for all intents and purposes ambidextrous.

 

[Ehh]

I remember Agassi criticized Roddick by saying Roddick was hitting too much of a left handed forehand than essentially letting the right hand be predominant and using the left as a safety and guide.

I know this sounds crazy because his shot is so good, but Nadal should basically be thrown out of all of these conversations since he is a righty everywhere else in life, so that "backhand" is really another forehand since he is for all intents and purposes ambidextrous.

Doesn't matter if he's a righty hitting lefty backhand, his backhand is still not as good as Djokovic's.

 

[syke]

I noticed quite a number of pros are using a hammer grip on their non dominant hand and a pistol grip on their dominant hand.

For me, when using a EFH (Bevel 7) pistol grip on my non dominant hand, the angle of the racquet face at ball contact is the same when I use a SWFH (Bevel 6) hammer grip. Sounds crazy, but it's true.

Look at Nadal, Fish, Verdasco & Berdych pictures on this website.
http://www.top-tennis-training.net/#/backhand/4557008050

What do you guys think?

 

[matchmaker]

Again, this is a really interesting thread and it certainly deserves more views. Actually I think it should go in the instruction section, rather than in the pro's, because this is applicable to recreative players, many of whom have weak doublehanded backhands.

I have myself been experimenting with straight/straight and bent/straight and there are clear differences between both. For straight/straight there is much more logic in using a real backhand grip, much the same grip as you would with a onehander as the contact point is far in front and you would like to have a correct tilt of the racquet head there.

As to the bent/straight, a more continental or eastern backhand grip makes sense as the contact point is closer to the body. This is interesting, because it seems to give you more time to hit the ball, being able to delay the decision where to send it a little longer. For me the best examples of straight/bent are Marcelo Rios and David Nalbandian. They both have very deceptive backhands often deciding at the last moment where to hit it.

Djokovic seems somewhere inbetween to me. Actually I often have the impression he uses a straight/straight, rather than a straight/bent, but watching in slow motion there does seem to be some bend. Likewise Marat Safin, it really seems to depend on the incoming ball what technique he uses. Nadal's backhand seems even stranger as he seems to have the contact point close to his body, but at normal speed I often have the impression both his arms are straight at contact.

I guess it is a little bit like forehands, e.g. Federer's, for different shots you can use different techniques and even grips, often one does not realize himself that one is varying the way of hitting. We all seem to think that we hit every single ball in the same way.