The way to beat Nadal with a 1hbh* is not to merely 'hit winners and serve aces'

tennis_hack

Banned
*Applies to right-handed players only

Hitting aces and winners is not a strategy. It's like saying that a good strategy for winning in chess would be 'make sure you opponent's king can't move without being captured'. Geez, I could be a coach if it were that simple.

The way to beat Nadal is, if you're tall, hit flat, powerful, but high percentage shots to the middle. This is the approach Del-Potro takes. I'm not sure if Soderling did this as well or he went more for broke. For 1hbh players, Brands is big enough to make this approach work.

For shorter 1hbh players, for a start you need to change your mentality to the backhand. Instead of thinking to yourself "oh no, he is breaking my backhand down", think "GREAT - he is playing my deadly backhand into form". Doesn't matter if you're deluding yourself - that's part of the reason to being a confident and successful tennis player.

Do not make the mistake of running around backhands too much, as Nadal will either hit forehands DTL or forehands behind you as you try to recover.

Hit your backhands against Nadal's forehand deep, spinny and high percentage to the middle of the court. This takes away very wide and high crosscourt angles from Nadal, and push him back deeper. But if you've broken down Nadal's forehand in this rally (unlikely but players like Gasquet, Kohlschreiber and Almagro do it quite frequently) and get a short ball to your backhand at this stage, obviously hit a forcing flat shot.

However, the real value behind this tactic is that you're not pushed too wide from Nadal's hooking forehand, therefore it also makes it more likely that you will be eventually able to hit a moderate-fast pace backhand DTL - too fast for Nadal to run all the way around it and hit yet another forehand. Or a real quality slice DTL - the key being, again, that it's too fast for Nadal to run all the way around and hit a forehand off it. Nadal will be forced to hit a backhand. Nadal hitting a backhand. Imagine that.

If, at this stage, Nadal is so dogged on maintaining the Nadal forehand to your backhand rally that he tries a backhand DTL, bear in mind that Nadal cannot put nearly as much spin on his backhand than on his forehand, so step in, take this one early and go for a hard CC angle, or hard DTL back into the Nadal backhand. You should be in control of the rally now. Don't rush the net like a mad-man, but do go in to put away easy balls. (Exactly as Nadal does).

If Nadal hits a great backhand DTL that pushes you back, merely revert back to hitting deep spinny backhands into the middle to take away angle, work on setting up this play again.

BUT, if Nadal foolishly hits his backhand crosscourt, this is now your opportunity to go completely Nadal on Nadal. Bomb his backhand with topspin and height to get the short putaway.

Look out for these really lofted backhands DTL that Nadal will always try to employ so that he can start hitting forehands again as you hit it crosscourt. Spot them early as they happen so often, and when he hits them, go for a mix of surprising Nadal by hitting back DTL, and hitting hard, flat (yet high percentage) forcing shots crosscourt to Nadal's forehand.

Off season work should include raising the contact point of your 1hbh. Lots of drills hitting at least shoulder height backhands, preferably head height. Work on a mix of looping them back deep with very heavy topspin, and even killing them off flat (but maybe only Almagro can do that). The higher you can raise your strike-zone, the less you are pushed back in Nadal forehand to your backhand rallies, so the more effectively you can employ the 'spinny backhands down the middle' strategy.

Work on shoulder and rotator cuff strength. You need to get the lateral and rear deltoids, lats, wrist extensors and external rotators of the shoulder as strong as possible. These are the 1hbh (especially the high 1hbh) muscles. Heavy seated rows, heavy weighted chin ups, handstand press ups, dumbbell lateral raises, dumbbell wrist extensions, grip work, face-pulls. Work on strength and strength-endurance, so a mix of low and high reps (if high reps, ensure short rest periods so you get used to handling the lactic acid).

Work on general cardiovascular fitness, because this is a long-term and consistent strategy to employ - not a 'go-for-broke' unreliable method.

One of the main things is mentality. Always think: "he is playing my backhand into form" when Nadal starts pounding on it. But as soon as you get the chance to pound Nadal's backhand - use Nadal's own tactics against him.

What do you think? Could this approach work?
 

checkmilu

Semi-Pro
It wouldn't work because Nadal has the advantage of fitness, he is simply faster, stronger and has more stamina. The only way to beat Nadal is someone can hit it fast (early) and hit it hard So Nadal doesn't have enough time to generate spin...it's because flat hit need shorter backswing and less time whilst loopy spin need longer backswing and time to accelerate the raquet. So far Soderling, Rossol, Darcis used the same strategy they hit the ball as if nothing to lose!
 

tennis_hack

Banned
It wouldn't work because Nadal has the advantage of fitness, he is simply faster, stronger and has more stamina. The only way to beat Nadal is someone can hit it fast (early) and hit it hard So Nadal doesn't have enough time to generate spin...it's because flat hit need shorter backswing and less time whilst loopy spin need longer backswing and time to accelerate the raquet. So far Soderling, Rossol, Darcis used the same strategy they hit the ball as if nothing to lose!

So what are you going to do? Just admit defeat before the match starts? Or work hard on your own speed, strength and stamina with the goal of becoming fitter, stronger and faster than Nadal? I know I'd chose the latter.

Nadal isn't the superhuman physical God that N@rds like to claim - he is a mere man - and you can train yourself to be physically stronger than him. A few recs I know that hang out at my gym can smash chin-ups with 90kg of additional weight strapped to them. Right now even I can do chin-ups with 60kg additional weight.

I bet these guys are, pound-for-pound, stronger than Nadal. Not only are they pound-for-pound stronger than Nadal, they're as heavy as him as well. And leaner than him. So they're absolutely as well as relatively stronger than Nadal. If they work on their stamina, they will have a complete physical advantage over Nadal.

Of course they have the strokes of a 4.0 rec, but still, they'd head into the match knowing they are physically superior to Nadal. A big psychological edge. It's not unobtainable at all, the pro's on the tour with the great 1hbh's (Kohlschreiber, Volandri, Almagro, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Berlocq, L. Mayer...etc...) need to be working towards this. Working towards becoming at least as fit as Nadal instead of think (oh, I'll never be as fit as him, therefore I need to hit stupid shots and pray to end the rallies quickly). You can always train harder and get physically better. Djokovic worked his butt off to do it. Even Murray. I think way too many tennis players are too complacent to stay where they are.
 
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Maybe it's an intractable problem - there's not much range and power when the ball gets up that high on the 1hbh. Even Wawrinka who has such a good top spin 1hbh, himself said after the 2013 Madrid final that the high ball to his bh causes him problems. And Nadal's FH doesn't just have topspin, but also sidespin and dip. Nadal just has to work on moving his opponent wide to the BH side and then hit the weak(er) reply DTL or go behind, whereas the 1hbh player has to really redline trying to cover both sides of the court and not lose position.
The slice bh, generally a weapon for the 1hbh player is largely neutralized against Rafa, because it goes to Nadals FH and he gets all the time to hit it anywhere he wants.
The only player to have solved this problem is of course the Djoker who can take Nadal's FH and hit pile drivers either DTL or CC. But that's done with the added stability of the 2hbh. It becomes exponentially more difficult and high risk trying to do that with the 1hbh, and can't be done consistently. And as Gulbis said, if you attack the net, Rafa's probably the best under that sort of pressure at hitting passing shots and winners.
 

tennis_hack

Banned
Maybe it's an intractable problem - there's not much range and power when the ball gets up that high on the 1hbh. Even Wawrinka who has such a good top spin 1hbh, himself said after the 2013 Madrid final that the high ball to his bh causes him problems. And Nadal's FH doesn't just have topspin, but also sidespin and dip. Nadal just has to work on moving his opponent wide to the BH side and then hit the weak(er) reply DTL or go behind, whereas the 1hbh player has to really redline trying to cover both sides of the court and not lose position.
The slice bh, generally a weapon for the 1hbh player is largely neutralized against Rafa, because it goes to Nadals FH and he gets all the time to hit it anywhere he wants.
The only player to have solved this problem is of course the Djoker who can take Nadal's FH and hit pile drivers either DTL or CC. But that's done with the added stability of the 2hbh. It becomes exponentially more difficult and high risk trying to do that with the 1hbh, and can't be done consistently. And as Gulbis said, if you attack the net, Rafa's probably the best under that sort of pressure at hitting passing shots and winners.

There is even less power and range if a ball gets up that high on a 2hbh. The stroke has a more limited range of motion than the 1hbh, and is a slower stroke than the 1hbh. So you can't reach as high and you can't swing as fast on a high ball.

The great thing about 2hbh against Nadal's topspin is that you can potentially hit the ball before it gets the chance to kick up on you. This is what Djokovic does.

It can be done with a 1hbh, but requires much better timing. James Blake managed it well, though.
 

JSummers

Rookie
...
Hit your backhands against Nadal's forehand deep, spinny and high percentage to the middle of the court. This takes away very wide and high crosscourt angles from Nadal, and push him back deeper.
...

Yes, I was thinking roughly the same too. Deep to the middle for most BH shots to limit the angles. I'd term this a "reset" shot for Fed to neutralize the rally.

I'd add that when not being pulled too wide (if during contact, still standing within the singles sideline), occasionally fire a deep penetrating inside out BH to ad-court corner, forcing potentially a weak BH return. Then 4 things may happen:
1) a decent BH DTL: then reset to deep to the middle
2) a weak BH DTL: sharp angle to FH, preferred a low bouncing shot (don't try an outright winner). This may force another weak FH, if so try to win next point. In reality, Nadal will float a loopy FH to Fed's backend in defense. (this is Nadal's "reset" shot) Fed has two options: spot this early and volley it, or hit on-the-rise with medium paced but well placed DTL BH to keep pressure on Nadal's BH. Nadal can't do much in this position to hurt Fed.
3) a decent BH CC: sharper angle to BH, pin him to BH (aka what Nadal does to Fed)
4) a weak BH CC: try a winner FH DTL, should be able to pull this off most the time, if not, still in a good position to end in next shot.
 
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checkmilu

Semi-Pro
So what are you going to do? Just admit defeat before the match starts? Or work hard on your own speed, strength and stamina with the goal of becoming fitter, stronger and faster than Nadal? I know I'd chose the latter.

Nadal isn't the superhuman physical God that N@rds like to claim - he is a mere man - and you can train yourself to be physically stronger than him. A few recs I know that hang out at my gym can smash chin-ups with 90kg of additional weight strapped to them. Right now even I can do chin-ups with 60kg additional weight.

I bet these guys are, pound-for-pound, stronger than Nadal. Not only are they pound-for-pound stronger than Nadal, they're as heavy as him as well. And leaner than him. So they're absolutely as well as relatively stronger than Nadal. If they work on their stamina, they will have a complete physical advantage over Nadal.

Of course they have the strokes of a 4.0 rec, but still, they'd head into the match knowing they are physically superior to Nadal. A big psychological edge. It's not unobtainable at all, the pro's on the tour with the great 1hbh's (Kohlschreiber, Volandri, Almagro, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Berlocq, L. Mayer...etc...) need to be working towards this. Working towards becoming at least as fit as Nadal instead of think (oh, I'll never be as fit as him, therefore I need to hit stupid shots and pray to end the rallies quickly). You can always train harder and get physically better. Djokovic worked his butt off to do it. Even Murray. I think way too many tennis players are too complacent to stay where they are.

The fact is pros trained hard to their limits but most of them will never reach Nadal's level of fitness+stamina...one of them is Fed who is only getting older. Yes there have been Djoko, Murray and there will be more even stronger version of Nadal in the future. ..There will be someone who run faster than Usain Bolt. But right now compete with Nadal on the basis of fitness is not a wise strategy.
 

MindoverMatter

Professional
It just seems like you're telling 1hbh players to challenge Nadal's forehand with their backhand in a battle of consistency, waiting for Nadal to make a mistake, which they simply won't win. The 1hbh will break down before the Nadal forehand most of the time simply because the shot wasn't made to be consistent, it was made to be flexible and powerful. Add in the ridiculous amount of topspin and the kind of crazy timing you need to hit the shot against him...only the 2hbh players, and only the good ones at that, can challenge him (a la Djokovic) like this.
 
There is even less power and range if a ball gets up that high on a 2hbh. The stroke has a more limited range of motion than the 1hbh, and is a slower stroke than the 1hbh. So you can't reach as high and you can't swing as fast on a high ball.

The great thing about 2hbh against Nadal's topspin is that you can potentially hit the ball before it gets the chance to kick up on you. This is what Djokovic does.

It can be done with a 1hbh, but requires much better timing. James Blake managed it well, though.

i fundamentally disagree. it is much easier to handle a high ball with a 2HBH than with a 1HBH, because one can use the left hand to "push" back the ball. One doesn't have to do a full swing. this is a very basic, accepted fact.
 

tennis_hack

Banned
i fundamentally disagree. it is much easier to handle a high ball with a 2HBH than with a 1HBH, because one can use the left hand to "push" back the ball. One doesn't have to do a full swing. this is a very basic, accepted fact.

If you're just 'pushing' back with the left hand then your stroke has broken down, and that shot will be a sitting duck landing on the service line with little topspin. At the pro level if you 'push' at a shot, it will get eaten up.

Have you seen how Nadal himself struggles with high backhands? I saw even Tommy Haas accidentally (or seemingly accidentally) hit a huge topspin forehand in Cincinnati which bounced over Nadal's head on the backhand side, and all Nadal could do was meekly scrape it over the net, and Haas was straight in to put away the volley.
 
If you're just 'pushing' back with the left hand then your stroke has broken down, and that shot will be a sitting duck landing on the service line with little topspin. At the pro level if you 'push' at a shot, it will get eaten up.

Have you seen how Nadal himself struggles with high backhands? I saw even Tommy Haas accidentally (or seemingly accidentally) hit a huge topspin forehand in Cincinnati which bounced over Nadal's head on the backhand side, and all Nadal could do was meekly scrape it over the net, and Haas was straight in to put away the volley.

i did not say a "pushed" reply is a good shot. all i am saying is that the 2HBH is still fundamentally a much better stroke in handling the high ball, than the 1HBH.
 

tennis_hack

Banned
i did not say a "pushed" reply is a good shot. all i am saying is that the 2HBH is still fundamentally a much better stroke in handling the high ball, than the 1HBH.

If, by that you mean the 2hbh is better at hitting a ball that would have bounced high before it actually did bounce high (ie. hitting topspin shots on the rise), then I agree.

However, if you mean the 2hbh is better than the 1hbh once the ball is actually above your head, then I disagree. The 1hbh simply has more usable range of motion up there. There is a reason why backhand overheads are hit with one hand, not two.
 
M

monfed

Guest
Just win the big points. Dimitrov fudged two regulation FHS on SPs in the third. Let's be honest, the guys who CAN beat him just can't close.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Just win the big points. Dimitrov fudged two regulation FHS on SPs in the third. Let's be honest, the guys who CAN beat him just can't close.
Yup. It isnt like Rafa outplays everyone every match. But he does out play them when it really matters.
 

tennis_hack

Banned
Maybe it's an intractable problem - there's not much range and power when the ball gets up that high on the 1hbh. Even Wawrinka who has such a good top spin 1hbh, himself said after the 2013 Madrid final that the high ball to his bh causes him problems. And Nadal's FH doesn't just have topspin, but also sidespin and dip. Nadal just has to work on moving his opponent wide to the BH side and then hit the weak(er) reply DTL or go behind, whereas the 1hbh player has to really redline trying to cover both sides of the court and not lose position.
The slice bh, generally a weapon for the 1hbh player is largely neutralized against Rafa, because it goes to Nadals FH and he gets all the time to hit it anywhere he wants.
The only player to have solved this problem is of course the Djoker who can take Nadal's FH and hit pile drivers either DTL or CC. But that's done with the added stability of the 2hbh. It becomes exponentially more difficult and high risk trying to do that with the 1hbh, and can't be done consistently. And as Gulbis said, if you attack the net, Rafa's probably the best under that sort of pressure at hitting passing shots and winners.

Wawrinka disagrees, and spanked high Nadal forehands with his backhand tonight.
 
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