Tips to help my serve

[thegarv]

Here is a link for video on my serve:

http://youtu.be/Ju03IzbDNps

I think I jump too early and start the racket throw too late but any help advice greatly appreciated

 

[LeeD]

You're posing and footfaulting, not trying to serve.
You're swinging at half speed, so nothing matters.
At half speed, you cannot time the leg thrust with the start of the forward swing.
Try swinging at full speed.

 

[thegarv]

Noticed the foot fault, need to start further back. That is my full speed my racket head speed overhead must be terrible!

 

[LeeD]

THAT is your service swing speed?
Sorry.
That ball must bounce twice before hitting the backwall, when it goes in.
OK, don't worry about your timing. Instead, be happy you can serve with very good form, and just place it into the corners. With your current swingspeed, perfect timing won't help a whole lot.

 

[thegarv]

It usually hits the back fence after one bounce but not with great venom. Should I do med ball work and light heavy racket work to help swing speed or just accept it's never going to be great?

 

[thegarv]

Also I maybe concentrate too much on legs and form instead of accelerating arm enough

 

[LeeD]

You can get faster swing speed by STRAIGHTENING your left arm to around 90 degrees, or slightly more open. That is the OPPOSITE problem most video TW guys have. By bending your elbow soooooo much during your trophy position, you are choking off potential swing speed, but gaining more control.
Try really straightening the elbow as you toss the ball up, then bend it to around 90 degrees ( L ) at trophy. The straighter your elbow is at trophy, the more power you can get. The more bent, the more control. The two traits are OPPOSITES.
Also, DON"T land balance on one leg. Instead, throw your body up and forwards at the ball, and land and balance however needed, NOT with one leg bent like you're doing a ballet pose.

 

[mad dog1]

are you really the head coach?

 

[LeeD]

I'll BET OP plays better tennis than 90% of the tennis coach's of high schools.

 

[thegarv]

yeah im a head coach of a club but the tennis standard in our country isnt so great. thanks very much for the tips LeeD ill practice that and see if helps. I do have good control and accuracy but need to improve power so thats much appreciated!

 

[LeeD]

Your trained, replicable, and repeated service strokes show you have lots of practice in tennis, and able to do what you want.
Now, throw yourself up and towards your opponent, lengthen and speed your swing, and your lefty style would have your serves a dominant part of your game.

 

[Lukhas]

I think your problem is that you look desynchronized when you serve. Because you already know how to serve: the basic form is here and there's little I could tell you. You have to think of your serve as a chain that starts with your legs and ends with your racquet. Nothing happens at the same time: action/reaction. Try to practise pitching/throwing like in baseball/US football to really get the feel for it. EDIT: If you're going to use your legs, you have to drive them first and convincingly; else the energy you've used is wasted.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This is the only one I saw near impact.

https://vimeo.com/84929883

The serve is too fast, particularly the last 30 milliseconds of acceleration to the ball, to show at this frame rate, 30 fps captures only one frame every 33 milliseconds. ?

From viewing high speed videos from the side, I believe that most pro servers are not still looking at the ball when it is impacted. However, the timing is close and some players such as Tsonga are probably looking at the ball when it is impacted.

I have not studied the timing of the leg's going up on the hitting side. There is a difference between your serve and Groth's for these two particular serves. ? Compare leg position vs time in videos.

Maybe Groth's body is at more of an angle - has to be compared more carefully with videos from the same camera viewpoints.

Another picture of Raonic's serve, similar to Groth's. Same comments apply.

Needs high speed video to see the ISR of the serve.

https://vimeo.com/63688134

To do stop action on Vimeo hold SHIFT KEY and use the right or left ARROW KEYS.

 

[LeeD]

OP HAS to hit higher over the net because he currently has no swing speed, and the ball arc's madly downwards after the impact.
Pro tennis player's hit much harder, can aim lower to the net off the racket, and still get it over the net.
Look how slow OP swings!

 

[Lukhas]

Well I think Chas' picture of your serve displays it well. You haven't properly made contact with the ball that your legs are already thinking about landing: your kinetic chain is isn't actually a chain. More like events trying to happen at the same time when they shouldn't. Legs -> core rotation ->throwing motion. Plus, you're making contact slightly behind you, but that's easier to notice.

@Chas: It's Samuel Groth.

 

[thegarv]

Brilliant feedback I didn't realise if get such great responses, this board rocks!

 

[Chas Tennis]

These pictures compare the leg positions when the racket is edge-on to the ball for one of your serves to one of Raonic's serves. Raonic's leg goes up later than yours. I don't know how typical Raonic's leg motion is of the high level servers. I have not studied this timing issue or the variation among high level servers. Suggest that you study this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju03IzbDNps&feature=youtu.be

https://vimeo.com/92038760

I believe that the leg flies up late in the motion to maintain balance but I'm not sure of the reason. There is a part of the service motion called the 'somersault', a forward bending. Maybe this somersault motion causes the out-of-balance by placing the trunk-upper body forward. ? Maybe the leg flies up because of some other more dynamic reasons. ? Or both reasons together?

When I serve with the motion I am after, my leg flies up on its own and very freely.

(If you video in direct sunlight your camera's automatic exposure control should select a faster shutter. The motion blur was OK in your overcast video, but the frame rate is too slow for the faster parts of the serve. 30 fps is fast enough to catch the leg motion.)

 

[crash1929]

OP- The timing looks odd. It seems like there is a disconnect between your jump and your hitting arm. I would practice some serves with out jumping, focusing on the famous kinetic chain. You should find you start to leave the ground naturally after a while. At that point I think you can begin to start thinking about adding some additional air. To me the kinetic chain starts with the knee bend, then the waist/shoulder rotation, elbow rotation, then finally wrist pronation. At least this is the feel I get. Maybe try practicing them independently then go faster and faster until it becomes fluid.

I'm not a coach though and would welcome others criticism of my advice.

 

[crash1929]

"Nothing happens at the same time: action/reaction."

This sounds like great advice.

It looks like you are jumping and swinging at the same time.

 

[thegarv]

I'm trying to work on bending my elbow less in trophy position and definately adds more power but struggling to get used to it and adds a lot more stress on shoulder.
I'll do lots of work with hand held med ball throwing to practice it.
Once I've got that mastered I'll get to work on the kinetic chain.
Really motivated to make these changes as my serve is holding my game back, thanks again for all the feedback!

 

[thegarv]

This is the position that my elbow is too bent? Presumably means I can't use power of shoulder correctly?

 

[thegarv]

https://imageshack.com/i/nrqx3cj

 

[toly]

This is the position that my elbow is too bent? Presumably means I can't use power of shoulder correctly?

From a physics standpoint forearm and shoulder should be perpendicular to each other then gravity can provide the maximum assistance to get maximum racket drop.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I'm trying to work on bending my elbow less in trophy position and definately adds more power but struggling to get used to it and adds a lot more stress on shoulder.
I'll do lots of work with hand held med ball throwing to practice it.
Once I've got that mastered I'll get to work on the kinetic chain.
Really motivated to make these changes as my serve is holding my game back, thanks again for all the feedback!

Don't experiment with anything that causes pain or discomfort.

Look at high speed videos of pros for shoulder positions and variations.

Study the Elllenbecker video on the shoulder and serving.

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

 

[thegarv]

Sorry think I was being misleading I meant I could feel it in my shoulder more but not hurting. Adding more power with it already I'll keep working on it