What do you all think of this serve drill?

[time_fly]

I found this drill on YouTube the other day. It shows how to get the serving arm into the cocked position properly, rather than opening up the racquet face too soon and pushing towards the ball. It seemed really intuitive and natural, and it seemed like it could apply to basic throwing technique as well as serving. And yet, I've never seen anything like it before and couldn't find any other coaches showing this drill. So that makes me wonder, is it really a very clever new drill or is something wrong with it that I'm not seeing?

 

[Dragy]

If he was fixing particular problem for a particular student...

But how happens they make general claims/instructions which don't pass brief verification against freely available high-speed video?

Where's "palm down"?

 

[time_fly]

If he was fixing particular problem for a particular student...

But how happens they make general claims/instructions which don't pass brief verification against freely available high-speed video?

Where's "palm down"?

The true “palm down” is during the take back before what is shown in your clip. I do think when comparing the instructions to an actual serve it’s more difficult because he never demonstrates it with the real front arm position and shoulder tilt, which definitely affects where the palm faces. If you do what he suggests with a racquet, the tip of the racquet will face forward as you bring it back into the cocked position. If you do it with a shoulder tilt then the tip passes more straight up which is what is seen in real serves. I think he also does let his wrist flex more while holding the bottle versus what happens with the racquet.

 

[Dragy]

The true “palm down” is during the take back before what is shown in your clip. I do think when comparing the instructions to an actual serve it’s more difficult because he never demonstrates it with the real front arm position and shoulder tilt, which definitely affects where the palm faces. If you do what he suggests with a racquet, the tip of the racquet will face forward as you bring it back into the cocked position. If you do it with a shoulder tilt then the tip passes more straight up which is what is seen in real serves. I think he also does let his wrist flex more while holding the bottle versus what happens with the racquet.

But he doesn't show palm down in earlier part of the windup - he emphasizes passing into drop with such configuration. I'm also completely discouraged with elbow bending demonstration. Once again, I can imagine a case where this is a good drill addressing particular issues for particular student. Better if the bottle was passing over the biceps instead of over the shoulder, though.

And again, he claims as a mistake palm orientation Federer and many other pros demonstrate. He'd make friends with @Curious

 

[time_fly]

Maybe the problem with the presentation is that it’s focused too much on where the palm is facing. Nobody’s palm is facing completely down in the trophy position, but it’s not facing up either. It should be facing mostly to the side. In playing with the drill and the motion more, what I think it’s doing is making sure that your arm gets close to fully supinated at the start of the swing. If you end up in the “Waiter tray” position your arm is about two thirds pronated already, so it’s hard to get a full pronation motion while striking the ball.

 

[time_fly]

And again, he claims as a mistake palm orientation Federer and many other pros demonstrate. He'd make friends with @Curious

Well, since the hand is curved around the racquet, the palm could be considered facing in a lot of directions depending on what you consider “the palm” but the point is that the hitting surface of federer’s racquet never faces straight up (or even close to it).

 

[Dragy]

never faces straight up

Never

(or even close to it)

Quite close at some point:

 

[time_fly]

Yes, I think some of the confusion comes from using absolute directions like down and up, versus relative to the body. That’s not even close to a waiter tray position. But because he is leaning back so strongly, I can see that you might say that the racquet and palm are facing up. If you took away the backwards arch and shoulder tilt, the edge of his racquet would be facing up and his palm and racquet face would be facing to the side. If I’m imagining this properly, he is still just finishing his load and not yet coming forward.

 

[Dragy]

Yes, I think some of the confusion comes from using absolute directions like down and up, versus relative to the body. That’s not even close to a waiter tray position. But because he is leaning back so strongly, I can see that you might say that the racquet and palm are facing up. If you took away the backwards arch and shoulder tilt, the edge of his racquet would be facing up and his palm and racquet face would be facing to the side. If I’m imagining this properly, he is still just finishing his load and not yet coming forward.

I agree with the side. Not facing the neck or shoulder though. But for some players does. Still not that much elbow bend - it’d spoil shoulder loading via drop reducing the leverage.
Going into drop like Fed has nothing to do with Waiter’s tray error. Racquet head will go through a loop and come out of the drop on edge and open towards the ball later through the motion.

 

[user92626]

If he was fixing particular problem for a particular student...

But how happens they make general claims/instructions which don't pass brief verification against freely available high-speed video?

Where's "palm down"?

OH gosh this kind of incomplete actions triggers my ocd hard.


Dragy, is it too much to ask you to create and post a complete action when you do?

 

[Dragy]

Dragy, is it too much to ask you to create and post a complete action when you do?

You can go to YouTube! I just tried to capture the exact part of motion the guy addressed with his bottle drill.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I found this drill on YouTube the other day. It shows how to get the serving arm into the cocked position properly, rather than opening up the racquet face too soon and pushing towards the ball. It seemed really intuitive and natural, and it seemed like it could apply to basic throwing technique as well as serving. And yet, I've never seen anything like it before and couldn't find any other coaches showing this drill. So that makes me wonder, is it really a very clever new drill or is something wrong with it that I'm not seeing?

Seem similar in approach and outcome to the birthday hat concept:

 

[ballmachineguy]

And here I was upset that I could only play tennis 364 days a year.