What does a topspin serve need to do to be effective

[men8ifr]

As per the title if I'm practicing topspin serves what should I look for for them to be effective?

I can get huge height over the net but I'm not sure if the ball is doing anything special on the bounce. When I try in a match most people can return them ok. I'd think the ball didn't have a lot of spin if it wasn't for the fact that I'm using a lot of rhs and can hear the string snap back. I may be lacking much forward pace I. E. Serve speed though...

 

[richardc-s]

You should be able to see the ball kick up off the ground once it bounces. I don't think hearing the strings snap back is much to go by as you may be putting a few types of spin on it, maybe side spin?

I hear a lot of 'string spin' when I hit kick serves, but most of that spin is in fact side spin and only a little bit top spin. It's essentially a loopy slice serve that kicks up slightly.

The easiest way to see what is happening is to keep serving against people and see where they are returning the shot. If their returning it at waist height then it's clearly not kicking up much!

 

[Karma Tennis]

The ideal kicker serve will see the Returner (ie your opponent) move in quickly to meet what they think is a short serve, and then be surprised by the upward trajectory of the ball after it bounces. If the serve is out of reach of the returner above shoulder height, then you have executed a fantastic kicker serve. If the returner gets to the ball and mis-hits the ball at their shoulder height or above you have executed a decent kicker.

 

[Lance L]

You should expect opponents to be able to return it OK. Few of us have a topspin serve that is a huge weapon. If I'm playing someone at a lower level my topspin serve feels like a weapon, but when I play at my own level I notice that it isn't the weapon I thougth it was. A huge kick serve is deadly, but I seldom see it.
The main advantage of a topspin serve is that you should be able to get it in almost every time. If you don't have good accuracy, that is a way to improve its effect. Being able to get the topspin serve consistently to the backand, for example, can make it more effective.

 

[Shroud]

Ideally you are getting some twist too so that it jumps to a righties bh. Even a 6" jump can help get a mishit or make it harder to run around and tee off on fhs

And once you have that down learn how to not get that twist too so you can change it up

Also varying the height is key as well as the depth. And for the really wide ad court to the bh you have to hit that one harder with more spin

 

[Gazelle]

Jumping over the back fence, Leed style.

 

[TennisCJC]

Kick or topspin 2nd serves require a brushing action up and to the side. To me, the trick is getting the right balance between brush and hitting through the ball. Too much brush and you can over spin the ball so it doesn't have much forward momentum through the court. Too much hitting through the ball and you get more momentum and pace but less movement and possible more DFs. Racket path is up, L to R (right handed server) and through the contact zone - experiment to find the right mix.

 

[sureshs]

Unfortunate truth is that below 4.5, and even for most of the 4.5 crowd, the topspin/kick/twist serves are not effective. They may surprise someone who has not seen them before, but others will wait for the turn, then take it on the rise, and crush them (as OP points out, his opponents return OK). It is just one of those things where the textbook does not match reality till an ability threshold is reached.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

just like any other stroke the order of importance... consistency, depth, placement, power...

the folks I play with that do have a top/kick, they are placed decently, and are very effective at preventing the returner from consistently attacking the second serve.

what I do see often is someone just learn a top/kick and think that a high bouncing ball is good enough. it certainly helps with consistency if you were having issues with hitting say a slice serve consistently (high clearance, etc,....). so if all you can do is hit a top/kick serve short in the center of the box,... then you don't really have a good serve period (slice, top/kick or flat). some folks have good movement on a top/kick than their slice,... but since they can place their slice better, it's often a more effective shot.

I don't serve my top/kick much harder than 60mph but I can place it to your weaker wing every time, with depth, and while I won't illicit errors or aces, will start the point without being at a positional disadvantage. even 5.0's I play can't consistently attack my kicker to their weaker wing (usually bh)... usually they'll still try to run around (since it goes so slow), then it becomes a game of cat and mouse, guessing which side I'm gonna serve to.

whatever serve you decide to use... the primary goal (after getting it in consistently) is to get the ball out of the returners strike zone (eg make him take a couple steps, bend low, or reach high, or all of the above)

 

[LeeD]

It's gotta go in.
Placement, right left, middle, and into the body.
Fast if the returner takes a big swing.
Slow if the reciever takes short swings and blocks the ball.
High bounce againt players who don't like high strikezones.
Low bounce if the reciever loves high strkezones.
Some disquise.

 

[men8ifr]

Kick or topspin 2nd serves require a brushing action up and to the side. To me, the trick is getting the right balance between brush and hitting through the ball. Too much brush and you can over spin the ball so it doesn't have much forward momentum through the court. Too much hitting through the ball and you get more momentum and pace but less movement and possible more DFs. Racket path is up, L to R (right handed server) and through the contact zone - experiment to find the right mix.

If you have too much brush what happens?

 

[men8ifr]

I asked the returner this morning what they thought and they said it just kind of sat up and wasn't too difficult to return. I don't know if I'm not getting enough speed, spin or both.

Also this is on AstroTurf are other surfaces more effective?

 

[scotus]

At the club level, I believe the most important elements are as follows:

1. Consistency
Gotta get it in. If this is used as a second serve, this has to be a safe serve so as to eliminate double faults.

2. Placement
More important than spin, pace, and disguise is the placement. It really doesn't matter if the opponent knows where you're aiming. Aim toward the sideline (serving from ad side), preferably short (about 3/4 to the service line). If you can hit it that way, you are forcing the returner out of the court. Then you can start dictating play.

3. Balance between spin, height, and pace
Most club players below 4.5 are simply unable to hit 80 mph kickers. So we'll have to find the right balance between spin, height and pace. If you spin it too much at the expense of pace, your serve will sit up nicely for your opponent and a decent returner can put it away for a winner. If you hit it too hard, chances are you may not have enough spin and control to keep the serve in. So play around with the trajectory, amount of spin and pace and come up with a compromise that suits you the best.

 

[LeeD]

Very few club or rec players face 80 mph kick serves.
Why? Because if they can hit that serve, they can also hit 120 or so flat serves, and would be playing at least 4.5 level, maybe 5.0.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Below 5.0 topspin/kick serves are only good for 1 thing - making your opponent hit a backhand return at or above their shoulders. If you can't kick it that high, stop hitting it. If you can't place it where you are sure they can't hit a forehand return, stop hitting it. If they can move around it and hit a forehand shoulder high, they are going to crush it. If you can't ensure they are going to have to hit a head high backhand, stay with the flat and slice unless it's just a rare change up.

 

[shindemac]

You can't expect to hit one type of serve. Better players will key in on it.

I've used topspin serves the entire match, and opponents had trouble in the first few games, but got used to it at the end. You need to vary the serve, either placement, spin, or pace. It will depend what's in your toolbox. I really like to throw in slice since it tends to stay low and is a little higher percentage than flat. Individually, top has the highest margin of safety, but if I want to win games, I need to use lower percentage shots like slice. I also throw in a flattened version of top to catch them off guard on second serves. Most don't expect that kind of pace. When I'm up 40-love, I'll throw in flats for both first and second serves. I also love to sneak in the drop serve for a first serve. Usually catches them off guard, but only works once a set or match.

Summary:
Vary your serve types.

 

[oble]

I can get huge height over the net but I'm not sure if the ball is doing anything special on the bounce. When I try in a match most people can return them ok. I'd think the ball didn't have a lot of spin if it wasn't for the fact that I'm using a lot of rhs and can hear the string snap back. I may be lacking much forward pace I. E. Serve speed though...

Don't bother with "huge height over the net". You'll just end up with a very loopy serve that does nothing after bouncing. A topspin/kick serve needs to have some forward pace behind it or it ends up as a sitter. Aim for around 2 to 3 feet above the net, 4 feet at most. You need to be able to impart spin at a diagonal angle (they call it gyro spin around here, apparently), so that the ball does something different after bouncing to throw your opponent off. If you can generate enough racquet head speed and some decent forward pace, you won't need super high net clearance for the ball to kick up and out of the returner's comfort zone.

 

[LakeSnake]

Drop serve as in this?

 

[shindemac]

Drop serve as in this?

Basically yes. But I do it overhead like my flat serve to disguise it. Obviously works best when they are standing behind the baseline and expecting flat bombs for a first serve. Works even better for slow runners. <:]

 

[Cullin Kin]

Make sure your kickers land deep because a short kicker to a person with good groundstrokes is basically point suicide. It's almost like floating a lob too short to the net guy in doubles.

This is just based off of my own experience while developing my kick serve. I was killed numerous times on shallow kickers...

 

[shindemac]

If you have nothing in your toolbox, then vary the placement of the kicker. Or whatever else you can change to keep them guessing. If you can't even do that, then consistency should be your goal.

Everyone will be different. I am fine having a margin of 2 to 4 feet above the net for my spin serves. You could have 6 feet of clearance, but you will need really good technique and RHS. I've gotten a few with more than 4 feet of clearance, but it's still very rare occurrence. One of my goals would be to achieve this at will, but that doesn't mean I will be using 6 feet of clearance every time.

Ideally, this is what I foresee for my topsin serve development. Being able to hit a "standard" reliable second serve w 4 feet clearance. Hitting an aggressive version with pace (2 feet clearance w less spin/more pace). Then using the 6 feet high bouncer to attack their backhand (or weaker side).

 

[rkelley]

A lot of interesting replies.

Most players will use a top spin serve as a second serve - almost always top/slice because it's difficult to get pure top spin on a serve. It allows for some pace, some action on the ball, and some margin of safety. Given this, the most important thing is that it goes in. I would try to be able to get some pace on it with safety, so if it has huge height over the net then you probably need to bring it down and get some more pace on it. I wouldn't worry about whether it's kicking super high, though that's great if it does. Any spin is good spin in this case. Be able to reliably get it to the bh.

When I played USTA C (3.5), and later some city league B (4.0?) a bazillion years ago, one of my weapons was a decent second serve. It was just a simple top/slice that I could get to the backhand. Wasn't crazy fast, but had a little action on it. No one ever crushed them, because the other players at a similar level weren't that good.

Likely the faster your flat serve is (assuming correct grips), the more spin your top/slice serve has.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

lots of good advice here... just wanted to share some of my practice experiences to get an idea of the quality of your top/kick...

I used to practice on an end court with a fence on the ad side... my goal was to either top/kick a serve down the T on the deuce side and hit the back fence on the fly (couldn't get it all the time but with the right pace spin and placement I would). on the ad Side is aim to hit the side fence.

obviously court dimensions will vary by I was doing it on a court that seemed "standard" in my area