Why do some people string NG so high (over 60)???

[ricardo]

Why do some people string NG so high (over 60)???

Do you string NG over 60lbs to get more control?
If so, you may be barking up the wrong tree.

Below is TWU article about string stiffness (NG being the least stiff and poly/kevlar the most stiff).

"How a string plays comes down to one basic thing — how stiff it is.
A higher stiffness means more control, less power, and less comfort.
Just the opposite is true for softer string — there is more power because of less ball deformation, more comfort because lower forces spread out over longer time, and less control because longer dwell time leads to more arc sweep during the bounce."

complete TWU article
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/lear...gstiffness.php

Consider the following stiffness increase

Gut

40lbs = 89 lbs/in stiffness
62lbs = 94 lbs/in stiffness

5 lbs/in difference in stiffness

poly

Luxilon 4G S 15

40lbs = 292 lbs/in stiffness
62lbs = 365 "

70 lbs/in difference in stiffness

Conclusion
If you want more control, use poly instead of ratcheting up the reference tension for NG. You cannot make NG stiff enough as poly no matter how high the reference tension you use.

Comments
I welcome your comments in case there are other reasons why you want to string NG so high (over 60lbs).

 

[struggle]

dunno, never used it. ask borg.

 

[Ramon]

I think you overgeneralize. As someone mentioned in your other thread, the tension represents parallel force (along the plane of the racquet head) while the stiffness represents perpendicular force. Also, the stiffness rating does not represent the amount of energy returned to the ball, which is critical for your hypothesis.

Have you ever tested poly at high and low tensions? The difference in power is relatively small. Have you tested natural gut at high and low tensions? The difference in power is huge.

Does this mean you would recommend poly over higher tension natural gut for someone who is prone to tennis elbow? As someone who has experienced elbow problems in the past, I can tell you that's the wrong recommendation.

 

[CRWV]

fwiw, Borg and Sampras (the two most noted high tension gut players) were both playing before the prevalence of Poly.

The driving idea would seem to be getting as stiff a string-bed as possible while retaining the gut feel. I'd bet money Borg would have used the typical modern gut/poly hybrid. (not sure about Sampras)

 

[ricardo]

I fully agree...

fwiw, Borg and Sampras (the two most noted high tension gut players) were both playing before the prevalence of Poly.

The driving idea would seem to be getting as stiff a string-bed as possible while retaining the gut feel. I'd bet money Borg would have used the typical modern gut/poly hybrid. (not sure about Sampras)

I believe that Borg would have used gut/poly hybrid if poly were available during his time.

 

[ricardo]

Pls don't put words into my mouth..

Does this mean you would recommend poly over higher tension natural gut for someone who is prone to tennis elbow? As someone who has experienced elbow problems in the past, I can tell you that's the wrong recommendation.

Now I know why that guy torres or something is totally p***off with you.

You have a tendency to read things that are not there.

 

[ricardo]

the stiffness rating does not represent the amount of energy returned to the ball

the stiffness rating does not represent the amount of energy returned to the ball

The above statement is technically correct.

TWU also says that a stiffer string deforms the ball more while a softer string deforms the ball less.

A ball only returns 50% of the energy it absorbs while a string returns > 90% of the energy it absorbs.

Thus, for more power, use a softer string like NG because it deforms the ball less, meaning to say that most of the energy is absorbed by the string.

For more control (less power), use a stiffer string like poly because it deforms the ball more, meaning to say that most of the energy is absorbed by the ball.

TWU string stiffness article
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/lear...gstiffness.php

Read the TWU articles, not just my notes because threre is always the risk that I could have mis-understood the TWU article.

 

[newpball]

I believe that Borg would have used gut/poly hybrid if poly were available during his time.

The irony is that polyester was already there, however nobody realized that it could be used for tennis strings.

"One word: plastics"!

http://youtu.be/PSxihhBzCjk

 

[struggle]

sure, borg likely would use a hybrid or somesuch, now adays and likely does. Lendl does, a wild setup too.

but the OP asked about gut at high tensions.

 

[drgchen]

I think that sometimes we look at graphs and numbers and try to make tennis a science when actually playing is more of an art.

I strongly disagree that you can make a simple generalization and say that a stiffer string bed equals more control, when we compare different materials altogether. Also when the ball deforms the string/stretches the string, stiffness changes as the string stretches. take a rubber band at five pounds tension, push a ball against it to stretch the band and note increased tension and increased stiffness. Higher tension in a particular string type gives more control, but that doesnt apply accross materials. Lab experiments measure stiffness based on a controlled environment. A fixed swing speed or ball speed. In actual tennis play the ball comes to you with different spins and your swing speed could vary greatly.

If tennis was a science you could say that the strongest guy hits the hardest. My background as a bodybuilder in my college days would mean that i should be able to hit harder than Nadal...but we know that isnt the case because I'm certainly not on tour.

I find similar control on a poly strung at mid fifties and gut at around sixty. The stiffness is vastly different but my ability to hit a particular line or spot in the court is the same.

My conclusion is that people shouldnt just go by lab numbers. I like natural gut because it gives me power when i swing hard, touch when i swing slowly, and feel when i volley. Wilson nxt is much stiffer by lab numbers, but i find it similar in control, just more harsh on the elbow over time.

Also i love tennis warehouse, but any time you read a scientific article you need to look carefully at the evidence and motivations. Ask a drug company to do research on their drug, and their drug is the cure all. These articles are written by a layman with lots of charts and numbers with the intention of impressing the audience. Does this guy even have a bachelors in physics or materials science? There is more to strings than numbers and composition. I have a relative who has a phd in materials science with over 20 years experience internationally, and He admitted it is very difficult to duplicate/clone a string based on lab tests...too many variables, and how do you quantify something like feel/touch?

Recently I have been testing many polys. Many have the same stiffness and energy return, but play totally different...go figure.

 

[drgchen]

Tighter strings also mean less string movement and a more consistent string bed response. Less time adjusting the strings that have moved out of place. This could be another potential motivation.

 

[ricardo]

I find similar control on a poly strung at mid fifties and gut at around sixty. The stiffness is vastly different but my ability to hit a particular line or spot in the court is the same.

thanks for your response. I certainly learned a lot more.

I started using NG (mains) at 40lbs reference tension due to arm problems. Gradually I went up as high at 55lbs. I tried different crosses (nylons, poly).

What I learned is that changing the cross string type and tension has a much more significant effect on power and control compared to changing NG reference tension. In my experience, there is no significant difference on power and control at 40lbs and 55lbs NG mains. The only significant difference I noticed is that at 40lbs, the mains (NG) moved a lot more. Power and control differences are not noticeable.

To change power or control to a significant degree, I change the cross string.

 

[drgchen]

I'm sure that you know more about natural gut. I'm just getting started with gut. With poly and synthetic gut there is a clear relationship between control, power, and tension of the string. This relationship must be approached one string at a time as a stiff poly at 50 may play like a soft poly at 65. Gut power isn't affected by tension likely because gut retains the same elasticity and energy return regardless of the increase in tension...obviously with nylon this is not true. I used to experiment with three or four racquets strung at slightly different tensions and hit hundreds of balls from a ball machine to hone in on my ideal tension for synthetic gut.

The other thing I have noticed is what you say...changing the poly cross can make a major change in the feel of the stringbed. Different polys however played significantly differently even though tension and stiffness was similar or nearly similar.

I agree with your statement that power and control are significantly changed with changing the cross string of the poly. The poly cross definitely takes a bit of the power away from a full bed of gut. In a Babolat pure storm tour, it was way to powerful with gut, but with a hybrid, powerful but controllable.

 

[sundaypunch]

Conclusion
If you want more control, use poly instead of ratcheting up the reference tension for NG. You cannot make NG stiff enough as poly no matter how high the reference tension you use.

Most people understand this. They choose to use gut because their arm can't handle poly or they simply don't like the feel.

 

[JT_2eighty]

Why do some people string NG so high (over 60)???

Do you string NG over 60lbs to get more control?
If so, you may be barking up the wrong tree.

...

Conclusion
If you want more control, use poly instead of ratcheting up the reference tension for NG. You cannot make NG stiff enough as poly no matter how high the reference tension you use.

Comments
I welcome your comments in case there are other reasons why you want to string NG so high (over 60lbs).

Unfortunately, this analysis misses a KEY component of gut, which was demonstrated in another book by the same authors of TWU. Namely, that GUT becomes MORE elastic once you tension it at or above 60lbs. While all other materials (nylon, poly, kevlar, etc) get stiffer, GUT, due to it's natural composition of muscle fibers, etc, continues to remain elastic at high tensions, even becoming MORE elastic at 60 as compared to 40 or 50 pounds.

There is more to gut than simple comfort. And there is more to the difference between gut and poly than the graphs can relay. People who still use gut at 60+ know what I'm talking about. It's a feeling that cannot be replicated by ANY string or tension or anything else.

 

[JT_2eighty]

"You cannot make NG stiff enough as poly no matter how high the reference tension you use."

To reiterate, those stringing full gut are in no way trying to make their gut be anything like a poly. Even stringing it at 70 is possible, and even then, completely different feel and result to those wanting poly. Not saying one is better than the other, just Completely Different.

 

[Ramon]

You have a tendency to read things that are not there.

Ok this has nothing to do with TE. What's not there is the amount of energy return, which I think has more to do with your theory. Stiff or not, a string can have a mushy or crisp response. If one string returns 90% and another returns 95% that difference is huge.

I'm rather skeptical when it comes to RSI numbers in general because there are too many numbers that don't make sense, like the fact that some polys have lower stiffness than Wilson NXT. If you look, there are plenty more obvious discrepancies. The test method descriptions also don't seem like they replicate real world applications that well. There's also no method to ensure reproducibility of results. How many times did they repeat the test, and how do you know it wasn't a fluke? If you worked for a company and had to submit these tests and the methodology to the quality manager of another company, you'd never get their business!

To be fair, TW and RSI have no compelling reason to invest in a higher degree of testing, so it's up to us to give it scrutiny.

 

[ChicagoJack]

complete TWU article
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/lear...gstiffness.php

Hi ricardo -

Can you double check your post? That link doesn't seem to be working. I am guessing you are referencing one of the first three articles on string stiffness in the TWU posted here. Would be helpful to know the source(s) from which you are basing your assumptions, conclusions etc.

-Jack

 

[ricardo]

Why do some people string NG so high (over 60)???

For those of you who string over 60 lbs,could you please tell me why are you stringing NG over 60 lbs.

1. Comfort?
2. Power?
3. Control?
4. Feel?
5. Durability?
6. Spin?
7. ????

I am currently using NG as mains and nylons or poly on the crosses (hybrid setup).
I modify the above attributes by changing the crosses (type of string and tension), not by changing the tension of NG. I tried 40-55 lbs on NG and I settled on 50lbs NG mains and 0-6 lbs lower on the crosses depending on the string type I am using. If I use poly, which is about 2-4 times stiffer than NG, I go down to 25 lbs.

 

[Cup8489]

Ng at high tension is a best of all worlds thing for me. I don't like the feel of poly and can control my shots with gut at 60+. Poly isnt the be all end all for control. If it was more people would use it.

 

[ricardo]

Hi ricardo -

Can you double check your post? That link doesn't seem to be working. I am guessing you are referencing one of the first three articles on string stiffness in the TWU posted here. Would be helpful to know the source(s) from which you are basing your assumptions, conclusions etc.

-Jack

Sorry.

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringstiffness.php

The article is titled
String Stiffness: The Alpha and Omega of String Performance

TWU has well research articles about tennis and we should all take advantage of the opportunity to learn from them.

 

[ricardo]

Ng at high tension is a best of all worlds thing for me. I don't like the feel of poly and can control my shots with gut at 60+. Poly isnt the be all end all for control. If it was more people would use it.

Thank you for your response. It is good that you like NG at 60+.

I tried NG (Pacific classic gut 17g) at 40 all the way to 55.
I did not notice any significant difference in terms of comfort, power, and control. I notice a slight change in feel. What I notice is significant movement at 40 compared to 55. I ultimately settled on 50.

I tried 60 but NG broke while stringing.

I thought of using another NG that can take higher tensions, but they are much more expensive (Babolat VS 17, Pacific Prime).

 

[amx13]

I just tried NG 17 at 60 pounds and absolutely love it. I got my hands on a couple of Hyper Pro Staff 95´s and strung them at my regular tension. I used to play with a BLX 90 at 54/56 (NRG 17/Synth gut combo) so I figured it would also work on the HPS. I was spraying balls all over the place, no control at all and started blaming the frame.

I re-strung one of them at 60/62 with the same NRG 17/Synth gut and it felt amazing... huge forehands, bitting slices, and not a lot of pop loss on the serve. I just hope string life is not too short with that tension so I can settle on that setup for good.

 

[ricardo]

Unfortunately, this analysis misses a KEY component of gut, which was demonstrated in another book by the same authors of TWU. Namely, that GUT becomes MORE elastic once you tension it at or above 60lbs. While all other materials (nylon, poly, kevlar, etc) get stiffer, GUT, due to it's natural composition of muscle fibers, etc, continues to remain elastic at high tensions, even becoming MORE elastic at 60 as compared to 40 or 50 pounds.

There is more to gut than simple comfort. And there is more to the difference between gut and poly than the graphs can relay. People who still use gut at 60+ know what I'm talking about. It's a feeling that cannot be replicated by ANY string or tension or anything else.

Unfortunately I tried to string NG (P.Classic 17g) over 60+ but it broke while stringing it. Maybe I will try Pacific Prime or Babolat VS Team which can take more than 60+ pounds. I will eventually get there. Right now, I am quite satisfied with NG mains at 50 crossed with either nylon or poly.

 

[JT_2eighty]

Why do some people string NG so high (over 60)???

For those of you who string over 60 lbs,could you please tell me why are you stringing NG over 60 lbs.

1. Comfort?
2. Power?
3. Control?
4. Feel?
5. Durability?
6. Spin?
7. ????

I am currently using NG as mains and nylons or poly on the crosses (hybrid setup).
I modify the above attributes by changing the crosses (type of string and tension), not by changing the tension of NG. I tried 40-55 lbs on NG and I settled on 50lbs NG mains and 0-6 lbs lower on the crosses depending on the string type I am using. If I use poly, which is about 2-4 times stiffer than NG, I go down to 25 lbs.

Question: when you drop your crosses that low (25lbs), do you notice any change in shape in your racquet head? What about overall racquet length? With mains at 50 and crosses at 25, I would imagine the headshape becomes rounder and the racquet a bit shorter overall.

Gut at 60+ has a "feel" unlike any string. It has amazing control, but not the same 'low power' control you get with poly. The pocketing of gut is a sensation you can't find with synthetic strings, and I've tried tensions from 22 to 64 with most string types.

Gut at 60+ has great control for flat hitters who don't want the jarring feel and shock that poly will give you at any tension. The energy return is unparalleled, yet the control is still quite good. At high tension, it's the only string that still has top notch comfort.

The main downsides for gut are: durability (especially in open patterns, and in damp conditions or clay court play; durability suffers).
Spin level (unless hybriding with poly crosses). Many players can get just as much spin with gut as poly; certain players will get more spin with full poly because they need the lower energy return of poly to allow for very fast swing speeds required for extreme spin. It's a balancing act for sure, but most rec players would be better off with high tension gut than any tension poly.

 

[Steve Huff]

I normally use a gut/syn hybrid at 62#. I've tried dropping the tension, but I've had difficulty controlling some shots, in particular, shots that I block or slice. These shots just seem to fly. A full swing generally produce about the same results, whether strung tight or looser. Recently, I strung my racket with a poly (PolyStar energy) at 55#. The power level is about equal to that of my gut/syn, and the results I'm having with shots is pretty close also. Tradeoffs: I get more feel with the gut/syn hybrid, but I think I get a little more spin with the poly (kick serves seem to bounce a little higher). So far, my arm has been tolerating the PolyStar, and I like the little extra spin. I'll see over the next few weeks which I prefer.

 

[ultradr]

Conclusion
If you want more control, use poly instead of ratcheting up the reference tension for NG. You cannot make NG stiff enough as poly no matter how high the reference tension you use.

Stiffness is a single metric that measures response to an impact.
It misleads a lot, especially against natural gut.

Let's say you are drawing a 2D graph. X-axis is the impact going low to high.
Y-axis represent resilience (reverse of stiffness, sort of).

This graph is not linear. Natural gut is known to have dynamic resilience.
It has much higher resilience at high impact, compared to synthetics while
crisp on low impact.

I string natural gut at 63-68 lbs on my Prestige with 18x20.
I enjoy crisp responses on touch shots, volleys while I can still feel
all mighty and nice ball cupping on high impact shots.

No synthetic string can do this and that's why natural gut is still the
holy grail for all court games, IMHO.