Why higher serve faults when trying to hit ball harder?

tanventure

New User
I am 3.0 player, have been trying to improve my serve, now reaching a point that normally I can put the ball insider the service box 90% of the time with easy. I used to only get less than 50%.

However, when I tried to add power to my serve, either hit the ball harder, or get more power from my legs, then my serve success rate would drop dramatically, 30%. Most of time, into the net.

Not so sure what happened & and how to fix the problems.

Thanks in advance.
 

bitcoinoperated

Professional
It could be a hundred different things that actually cause this nut to start with try thinking about hitting 'up and out' and see if that cue helps you.
 

dct693

Semi-Pro
I am 3.0 player, have been trying to improve my serve, now reaching a point that normally I can put the ball insider the service box 90% of the time with easy. I used to only get less than 50%.

However, when I tried to add power to my serve, either hit the ball harder, or get more power from my legs, then my serve success rate would drop dramatically, 30%. Most of time, into the net.

Not so sure what happened & and how to fix the problems.

Thanks in advance.
Any time you change a shot for any reason, your accuracy will likely take a hit. Adding power is a change and it should be expected that you will be initially less accurate. Don't worry about it, but work on regaining your accuracy. This Feel Tennis video talks about the issue you are having.

This one is also good and covers how to add power correctly to any tennis shot:
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
First correct it to miss long, rather then into net. Then work on topspin combined with power.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
... or slice, or topslice, etc...

presuming your technique is not breaking down, your serve probably relies on gravity to bring it down into the box.

now with more pace you need to help bring it back down into box with spin.
 

tanventure

New User
Any time you change a shot for any reason, your accuracy will likely take a hit. Adding power is a change and it should be expected that you will be initially less accurate. Don't worry about it, but work on regaining your accuracy. This Feel Tennis video talks about the issue you are having.

This one is also good and covers how to add power correctly to any tennis shot:

Wow, the two videos are made for me!

Thanks, very helpful to fix my problems. So I will take a progressive approach:
adding power with large target areas first, then gradually reduce target areas.
 

tanventure

New User
You said trying to get power from the legs. You should completely forget about that because that is a myth. The power does not come from the legs. Not even a little bit of it. The legs propel you up to the highest point to make contact with the ball that is the purpose of the bend.

You mention you are a 3.0. I work with students who practice 5 days a week and it may benefit you to know that even after two three four years they are still working on their serves.
At a 3.0 level I would not be trying to get power on your serve. I would concentrate on the fundamentals of the serve and eventually as you get comfortable you'll naturally progresse to hitting harder. It would likely benefit you a far more to get a coach to help you work on your serve. If that's not an option try and learn the fundamentals on YouTube. I say try because frankly I don't put a whole lot of faith in that approach.

I see, looks that to improve serve would be a long, and slow process. BTW, there are many talks about the trophy position for serve, but not sure if it's only suitable for more advanced players, like 4.0 above? Any suggestions? I tried it a few times, but not used the rhythm yet.

Thanks for your comments.
 

Curiosity

Professional
You said trying to get power from the legs. You should completely forget about that because that is a myth. The power does not come from the legs. Not even a little bit of it. The legs propel you up to the highest point to make contact with the ball that is the purpose of the bend.........................

I'll provide a contrary view as to your leg comment. Leg extension is very important for serving speed and power. The reason is simple. When you've established your set up, trophy, and the toss is up, you'll have taken some separation angle between the hips and the farther turned-back shoulders. You can prove to yourself that given this shoulder offset, when you vigorously extend your legs your torso rotation is forced automatically until your torso is aligned with your hips. The leg extension provides the lion's share of torso rotation speed. (This is also true in the topspin forehand drive...).

You can prove this to yourself in your own livingroom. And, it doesn't require especially deep knee bend, but at least enough to get the UB rotating. Even a small amount, plus vigorous extension can add solid rotation speed.
 

BullDogTennis

Hall of Fame
You said trying to get power from the legs. You should completely forget about that because that is a myth. The power does not come from the legs. Not even a little bit of it. The legs propel you up to the highest point to make contact with the ball that is the purpose of the bend.

You mention you are a 3.0. I work with students who practice 5 days a week and it may benefit you to know that even after two three four years they are still working on their serves.
At a 3.0 level I would not be trying to get power on your serve. I would concentrate on the fundamentals of the serve and eventually as you get comfortable you'll naturally progresse to hitting harder. It would likely benefit you a far more to get a coach to help you work on your serve. If that's not an option try and learn the fundamentals on YouTube. I say try because frankly I don't put a whole lot of faith in that approach.

a myth? and you are a coach? do you have any idea how the kinetic chain works? just to disprove you, stand on your knees and and try and get as much power on the ball.
 

oble

Hall of Fame
I see, looks that to improve serve would be a long, and slow process. BTW, there are many talks about the trophy position for serve, but not sure if it's only suitable for more advanced players, like 4.0 above? Any suggestions? I tried it a few times, but not used the rhythm yet.

Thanks for your comments.
That's considered a fundamental to a proper serve, so I would say no, it's not only suitable for more advanced players. You should try to get the correct fundamentals drilled into your strokes from as early as you can.
 
Can have different causes. First of all if you try to hit harder you often jerk the head off the ball causing to lose accuracy, especially if you don't use the legs well and try to go all upper Body.

also a harder hit ball has less arc which means you have less margin at the net and at the Service line.

learn to hit with correct mechanics before you try to hit harder.
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
However, when I tried to add power to my serve, either hit the ball harder, or get more power from my legs, then my serve success rate would drop dramatically, 30%. Most of time, into the net.

When you try to swing faster than usual, presuming you have a good foundation to work with, you require yourself to accomplish a slightly different task. If it is just a tad faster than usual, you can usually manage it, albeit with a bit less success -- because, you know, it still lies beyond your comfort zone. The goal here is to keep trying to go a little faster until you get the desired control and, then, to proceed to accelerate again a bit. If you try to hit way harder than usual, you're just in way over your head: it's too hard, way out of your league for the moment. That tends to lead people to change dramatically the way they swing. They get tense and their form break down -- and, thus, they loose control.
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
Wonder if 3.0 player should learn the trophy pose ?
First of all, if you are going to learn to serve, you need to do it right. Of course, it might require several steps and you might be forced to truncate the motion into something simpler to get things done, but at some point you want to be able to do the whole thing correctly. It simply makes serving SO MUCH EASIER.

So, you need to understand two basic points:
1. You need somewhat of a backhand grip. A continental grip, an eastern backhand grip or something in between. In my opinion, if you want to hit with something else than a clear cut continental grip, make it lean toward the eastern backhand grip and not an eastern forehand grip. The major reason for using backhand grips like these is that they help us get more topspin on all serves;
2. You never swing your arm at the ball on any serve. You always swing your arm up and out -- that is, at an angle away from the ball. You hit the ball despite this arm path because you use internal shoulder rotation and forearm pronation which helps you twist your hand in the right way and sends the racket in the right path... And that is true for ALL SERVES.

Second of all, if you want a tip, I'd advise you to learn hitting topspin serves first (they sometimes are all called kick serves, although some slices, some bounce straight ahead and others twist and most people on this forum only call the last type of topspin serve a kick serve). I have three very good reasons for this:
(1) You can't hit a good topspin serve without remaining closed for longer (i.e., your body is not facing the net at contact) and that exaggerates what you need to do on a flat serve;
(2) The arm action for a kick serve exaggerates swinging up and out, as well as forces you to pronate a bit and, thus, also helps you get the swing on a flat serve right;
(3) While you might not get the twist variant right away, or be able to control the different spins you can put on a topspin serve to surprise your opponent, anyone of those serves is a high percentage shot, it's not hard to control and it still challenges returners.

Most people do two things wrong on flat serves: (1) they open up too much, too early; (2) they attempt to slam the ball down, instead of swinging up on it to get a bit of spin. You can make acceptably looking, yet inconsistent flat serves while doing this, but you can't get anything ressembling a topspin serve doing those. They tend to do this because they learnt serving with a forehand grip, facing the court and swinging at their target by extending their arm and kept a bit of those habits, but that doesn't capitalize on the benefits of using backhand grips. By learning topspin serves first, you correct those mistakes through exaggerations and get immediate and systematic feedback on what's wrong.

For the third point, consider how we play tennis. Of all shots, the serve is the only shot where you do not respond to your opponent, but get to decide entirely what will happen. This is the number one reason why in men's tennis and, to a lesser extent in women's tennis as well, players tend to win more points serving than returning. Moreover, you will start all points either with a return or a serve. Consequently, the serve is the most important type of shot in the game. If you have only enough time to practice one shot and some time to play matches, practicing serving -- this is where each small increment of technical improvement will pay the most. Now, I advised you to pick topspin serves and not flat serves. The reason is that it allows you to put your first and second serve inside the box and to do it with confidence and aggressivity. You don't need huge pace to beat even the best players on the planet. Granted that kick serves in the upwards of 100mph are something, we're still a far cry away from a genuinely fast serve for those players. What you need is to have just enough pace on it for the receiver to be challenged and, then, you need some variety to fool them. At your level, if you can hit both of your serves with purpose, you'll beat most guys hands down without hitting a single flat serve, but as you go higher variants of bounce type (topspin-slice, topspin and twist), placement (wide, body and middle) and pace (topspin serves versus flat serves and hard slices) become more of a necessity.

My last tip is this: the point of your serve, unless you can hit huge bombs and want to hide deficiencies elsewhere in your game, is not to win the point outright with aces and unreturned serves, but to put yourself in an offensive situation right off the return. All you need, at any level of play, is a slight misshit. As I love serving and volleying, I'm looking for a ball that floats a bit too much and doesn't move quite as neatly towards the sideline, so anything struck close enough to the frame is good enough to give me a chance to attack. This off center hit means he won't get as much pace or spin. If you stay back, you want a ball in the dead center of no man's land, bouncing just a bit of the net -- and just a bit of a misshit is enough to give you that. You would also prefer to hit a forehand to a backhand if the return is a bit deeper. This is where disguise and variety comes in handy at higher levels: it forces your opponent to guess, so he reacts a bit later and might misjudge the ball just enough to not be able to neutralize the point. For you, however, just the quality of your serve might be enough. So, keep in mind what is the right intention to have on all serves -- you're setting yourself up for an easy point, you're not hitting winners off the serve.
 

tanventure

New User
Of all shots, the serve is the only shot where you do not respond to your opponent, but get to decide entirely what will happen. This is the number one reason why in men's tennis and, to a lesser extent in women's tennis as well, players tend to win more points serving than returning. Moreover, you will start all points either with a return or a serve. Consequently, the serve is the most important type of shot in the game. If you have only enough time to practice one shot and some time to play matches, practicing serving

Fully agree! That's why I decided to try hard to improve my serve, at least for the next a few months.

Thank you for many suggestions, it will take a while to digest:).

BTW, what do you think about the TROPHY POSE? Is it important to learn at my level now?
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
[
I am 3.0 player, have been trying to improve my serve, now reaching a point that normally I can put the ball insider the service box 90% of the time with easy. I used to only get less than 50%.

However, when I tried to add power to my serve, either hit the ball harder, or get more power from my legs, then my serve success rate would drop dramatically, 30%. Most of time, into the net.

Not so sure what happened & and how to fix the problems.

Thanks in advance.

I would not worry about getting more power from legs for now. Leg drive can always be added later. The leg drive only adds 10-15 percent more power.

More important to get into a proper trophy position. One important thing is that the left arm should continue upwards to the sky after toss is released. Most 3.0 players will bring the left arm down too soon.

This is a useful site for trophy position: http://www.roadto45tennis.com/servetrophyposition/

 

tanventure

New User
One important thing is that the left arm should continue upwards to the sky after toss is released. Most 3.0 players will bring the left arm down too soon.

Thanks for your comments. The trophy video is great!

BTW, why the left arm should continue upwards to the sky after toss? To maintain body's balance?
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
BTW, what do you think about the TROPHY POSE? Is it important to learn at my level now?

All good serves go through this body posture called "the trophy pose." It is essential that you attain this posture in your motion in order to generate a powerful serving action, but be careful that you eventually only go through it, that your motion remains dynamic and doesn't take a stop or too much of a significant slow down around this posture.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
BTW, why the left arm should continue upwards to the sky after toss? To maintain body's balance?
The reasons I think about:
* Contributes to the consistency of the toss (ie. same reason you want to follow through on groundies)
* Gives your contact point a frame of reference (ie. painters thumb)
* Drops/loads the right shoulder (in conjuction with loading the rear leg), in preparation to the "somersault" phase
anyone else have other reasons?
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
BTW, what do you think about the TROPHY POSE? Is it important to learn at my level now?
In my opinion it is, shortly after getting a semi-consistent toss (with out racquet arm)...
In general, a decent serve requires a bunch of moving parts working together (pat your head, rub your belly :p), so learning how to toss and get to the trophy phase is important.
like @Raul_SJ said, incorporating leg drive is not important as a beginner, but getting into the basic framework is extremely important, even if most of the serve power is generated from the arm and rotation.

Honestly I think if beginners (and me!!) spent 90% of their time just practicing a consistent toss (presuming grip is correct), that would get them to a 4.0 level side spin serve quickly... I always find that most folks stuggling with serve have a decent hitting motion for 4.0, but spend 90% of their effort chasing a bad toss (ie. they have all kinds of hitches, extraneous movement, etc... to make up for a consistently bad toss)

But yeah, practicing your toss is not exactly fun (I'm guilty)
 
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