The hooking in USTA league matches renders the anticipated pleasure of the game moot for many of us. I believe that baseline vison, a new app that calls lines, will solve this problem for the rec competitive player. It's an improvement over in/out and will be a good 92% solution. Once the tech drops, do we need to lobby the USTA to make it the default line calling authority for when it is accessible? How do we do this? Lobby the USTA rules committee I assume...
Will line calling technology ameliorate hooking in USTA matches?
- Thread starter Aurellian
- Start date
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Yes, it would help greatly. I hit alot of topspin and they often land on the baseline and if my opponent thinks i didn't get a good look at it, i get hooked alot. After that i am forced to hit more topspin so it lands well inside the line. It would eliminate the worry about all the line shots being called out so often
I think people are incapable of impartial adjudication. I played a guy yesterday who looked to be an honest man, but anything near the line he called out. I dont think he was intentionally trying to cheat me.
USTA should not be asking players to make this type of call. Anything within 3 inches of the line should be in. That should be the default position.
Looking forward to getting the tech written into USTA rules.
dlam
Semi-Pro
This is the part of the game that I hate the most.
I call it like it is and if the other player dont like that tough banana
and sometimes if it passing shots close to the line sometime I dont catch a good look at it because its pass me , the other player might call it
We cannot be accurate all the time
I look forward this device available every where
Makes me want to play golf to get rid of the line call
I call it like it is and if the other player dont like that tough banana
and sometimes if it passing shots close to the line sometime I dont catch a good look at it because its pass me , the other player might call it
We cannot be accurate all the time
I look forward this device available every where
Makes me want to play golf to get rid of the line call
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Purestriker
Legend
It is going to be a while before this technology is cheap enough to outfit your local tennis courts. Even at private clubs, the investment would need an ROI.
ichaseballs
Professional
the general public does not care if there is hooking at a rec level.
there is no incentive for USTA/clubs to invest $$ into this.
i make a mental note of the ****ty player, and move on
there is no incentive for USTA/clubs to invest $$ into this.
i make a mental note of the ****ty player, and move on
You do realize your opponents think the exact same thing about you (and believe themselves to be the "morally superior" players).
Have you ever met the guy that says "I just want you to know that I'm the b@$t@rd everyone complains about. I hook pretty much everyone I play".
What we really need are more "adults" in the world. That would actually "solve" the problem. But I'm not holding my breath for this to happen.
ichaseballs
Professional
i have had matches where both players are too generous with their calls.
even having to question their calls sometimes (in their favor).
even having to question their calls sometimes (in their favor).
Does this generosity extend to match point?
Or does it only happen on "meaningless" points?
I think you miscomprehend my solution. I should have indicated the price of the Baseline Vision is about $700. Thus, if I buy one, a USTA team buys one, or my club buys a bunch, what is the regulatory framework to incorporate their use. As in, if I have it, can we make sure it's used? I can foresee an old school guy saying he would rather call his own lines. Hence, my question about the USTA rules committee.
Again, it's not a 100% solution. but a 92% impartial solution is good enough for rec play.
You opine too much. And your comment is irrelevant. Why should you care if I am "morally superior" if I am honest with my calls? I only care about making the game fairer; someone's morality is beside the point. You can yell come on, leave the balls on the court, glare at me...coolio..as long as you don't hook me I have no concern...Understand?
The tech is just about here. It's called Baseline Vision. The plan is once it drops, to gain buy in, then get the rules committee to ok their use.
dlam
Semi-Pro
Even MLB planning to get rid of umps for Robot calling next season
Study show that umps missed on average the correct call 9 times per game
So what does this say for the player that is partial?
I would not play with a player again who I strongly suspect of hooking me
NOt sure if this is true, read somewhere Agassi in junior cried when ball was called out by his opponent on close call that he felt was hooked
there's nothing you can do so just play out
Same frustration when throwing a strike when its called a ball but I know its strike
Study show that umps missed on average the correct call 9 times per game
So what does this say for the player that is partial?
I would not play with a player again who I strongly suspect of hooking me
NOt sure if this is true, read somewhere Agassi in junior cried when ball was called out by his opponent on close call that he felt was hooked
there's nothing you can do so just play out
Same frustration when throwing a strike when its called a ball but I know its strike
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ichaseballs
Professional
firstly, $700?!
secondly, it's not cost related. even if free, we have enough smartphones and cameras to call lines if necessary.
there is no incentive for the usta to do so. i don't think they will see it to the rise of new players b/c now there is line calling.
good thing is that sections seems to operate independently, so perhaps one section can try creating rules to incorporate this technology.
but again, realistically i do not think they have or will want to dedicate the resources to such projects.
ichaseballs
Professional
comparing pro sports and recreational amateur level is apples + oranges...
You sound like a reasonable man
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FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I play quite a lot of usta and have for years upon years, I can't remember line calls, bad ones, deciding a match I was in. How often is this happening to everyone?
Purestriker
Legend
We have 10 teams in one league with 5 lines each. That’s $35k and not even the price that’s advertised ($1600). There are better solutions. Have a conversation about it or hook them back.
Purestriker
Legend
Exactly.
what are you talking about? A smart phone does not call lines "already." Why does UTSA not have an incentive to promulgate fairness? You seem very confused and unable to comprehend my points. The players and clubs will buy them. Not mandating that USTA buys them. reread my comments, please.
Does one call decide the match? Perhaps not, but it can have reverberative effects beyond just the one errant call. It causes a big hitter to put it safely inside the lines and this changes the playing style. One, no, but three, likely. Cheating is always at the most opportune times too.
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What kind of math are you using? Clubs will have them and reuse them and players like me will bring their own. Dont need for every match, just 1-2 lines. I never cheat back...that would be morally compromising
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penpal
Semi-Pro
In your OP you say this Baseline Vision system is better than the In/Out system. Could you elaborate as to why you think this is the case? I like where both of these systems are headed and from what I remember the In/Out system is a little less expensive. What are the improvements that Baseline Vision has implemented?
Hi PenPal. I work in tech but am not an engineer, so forgive my layman's assessment. But remember where the Iphone was 5 years ago to where it is today: better cameras, greater processing speeds, and advances in M/L that can predict the ball's flight path better. In/Out wasn't that bad if you used two cameras and the ball didn't hit the cameras--it was good for vertical line calls. I am not sure if the cameras on these things are actually seeing the ball or using algorithms to predict flight path and relaying that in pictorial fashion.
In the 1950s computers existed but were too resource hungry for all but the DOD to use. Now, that same computing power is contained in a $20 smart phone. Same concept.
In the 1950s computers existed but were too resource hungry for all but the DOD to use. Now, that same computing power is contained in a $20 smart phone. Same concept.
Purestriker
Legend
If it is so cheap and clubs/players will use them then why are you here telling us that they need too? How do you determine which lines need them?What kind of math are you using? Clubs will have them and reuse them and players like me will bring their own. Dont need for every match, just 1-2 lines. I never cheat back...that would be morally compromising
Three issues: availability, accessibility, and acceptability. Is the tech available to call lines with 90% accuracy. Two, is the cost prohibitive? Three, how do they get deployed?
I would allow any player that has one to use it on his or her court for any USTA sanctioned match. I would not make it mandatory. How could you? Most country clubs would be able to afford a few devices.
The technology is getting cheaper and it's already easily affordable by a lot of clubs.
When I've brought non-tennis playing people to watch me play tournaments, they're surprised that we call our own lines.
I've played relatively few genuine cheaters over the years but plenty that missed calls accidentally (and yes, I'm sure, because I looked at the marks on the clay).
When I've brought non-tennis playing people to watch me play tournaments, they're surprised that we call our own lines.
I've played relatively few genuine cheaters over the years but plenty that missed calls accidentally (and yes, I'm sure, because I looked at the marks on the clay).
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Always interesting when someone makes a general statement like this, making it sound like people are hooking all the time. I guess Southwest is just full of decent folks having fun playing rec, or maybe I am not at the level hooking becomes a skill, but rarely have I had an opponent or team purposefully hooking. Now, we did have a few teams that were notoriously known for it, but they even cleaned themselves up after being confronted and some league discussions.
I dunno. as much as I want the technology to help me make better line calls and not give away points because I tend to play everything close, I just think for most rec matches it is overkill.
If they can get it in under $50 they might have a chance.
Let's imagine that automated line calling tech comes down in price to where it's available for $50-$100. We're not there yet, but maybe in a few years.
It would then be something we could compare to use of singles sticks.
Is it necessary for rec play?
Singles sticks are not necessary - it's not going to make a significant impact on the outcome of a match.
Similarly, I don't think automated line calling is necessary - really I don't see that many obviously bad line calls.
So I don't see it getting to where it's mandated, just like singles sticks are not mandated.
Should it be allowed for use in rec play?
Singles sticks are allowed if they are provided by the facility and are approved/regulation sticks.
I think it should be similar for auto line calling; if permanently set up for the court (and so one assumes calibrated correctly), it should be used.
The grey area is where the singles sticks / auto line calling device is not provided by the facility but brought by one of the players.
In this case I think you should need agreement from all players to use the sticks / device.
Because there is some trust involved in buying into the quality / accuracy of the sticks / device.
The real value in a line calling device isn't the accuracy or "getting it right".
It's having a computer make a definitive line call that both parties agree to abide by.
It's not clear that Hawkeye is accurate (based on the reactions by the players). But it can't be argued. So no drama.
It's having a computer make a definitive line call that both parties agree to abide by.
It's not clear that Hawkeye is accurate (based on the reactions by the players). But it can't be argued. So no drama.
I haven't done USTA but have done WTT (now ITT) and had a season where 6+ matches were within 4 games (the format is scored by the sum of the game counts from each set.) Hooking was definitely a factor in some of these but in general I agree it's rare.
And the levels of play where I have seen it as the biggest issue (coaching highschool varsity) is the one where tech is the least likely to be implemented because of $.
That said I have played with some people who were notorious in their district for bad calls and other tomfoolery. It can be infuriating and I could probably write off swingvision as a healthcare expense for the good it would be doing my blood pressure in those matches.
Generally speaking, the people that complain the most about everyone else are the ones that are causing the most drama and problems.
Think about driving on the road. The folks that just follow the car in front of them and keep a reasonable following distance rarely are vocal about bad drivers. But the guys that weave in and out of traffic to get around all of the other "bad drivers" (which is anyone but them) usually complain non stop. And we all know what types of drivers are really the problem.
Guys who just play and don't worry too much about a bad call here and there and just try to be decent people rarely say much.
I admire your passion, but your logic leaves a lot to be desired.
If you dont trust your opponent to bring an honest line calling machine (like he reprogrammed it to give faulty scores that just barely favor him) how can you trust your opponent to call lines? I trust a machine more than a 40 year old dude with glasses 30 feet away from a ball.
Yes Sir, or Mam! No inherent bias. That's what I aim for.
I am convinced that people dont intend to cheat. They just give themselves the benefit of the doubt at the most gratuitous times.
The problem would then only shift by 3 inches, and there wouldn't even be a line for reference.
Maybe you have a point, but I noticed the 4.5 level guys play balls that appear to be out but close. It's the 3.5 guys that wish and hope for their opponent's error by a millimeter.
I understand that the position I take is "sub optimal".
Essentially, it's just a variation of the "Prisoners Dilemma". Everyone benefits from cooperation. But cooperation can't be enforced. So everyone should act in their own best interest at all times. Those who choose to cooperate will get taken advantage of. That's fine with me in both tennis line calling and driving. I don't mind if guys steal points from me. And I don't mind if guys cut me off and get ahead of me in traffic.
I'll take the peace of mind of avoiding confrontation in exchange for letting others take advantage of me. It's a trade I'm willing to make. And often times I find that people voluntarily opt for cooperation (and don't take advantage of me), even though they can. Some do take advantage of me though. I'm OK with that.
They would do the same, but shifted by 3 inches, and there would be no line for anyone to look at.
I actually had this happen this past weekend. My opponent hit a ball from my angle that looked clearly wide. But he had a much better angle of it so I asked him if it was in.
He acted like I was hooking him in the process. I’m just trying to get the right call guy.
May god bless you bro. Not me, you won't take a dime from me or a point from me. I give my opponent close calls and expect the same. I only give gifts to lil kids and women.
You state it perfectly!!
Notice, what really concerns you isn't losing a point. It's not allowing someone to take advantage of you all that goes along with that. Being perceived as weak, having to bear an "injustice", etc.
Clearly while driving, nobody really cares about the loss of a few seconds by someone else "getting in front of them". And nobody really cares about the loss of the actual single point itself.
If we put it in "rhetoric" terms, we'd look at the 3 parts of rhetoric. Speaker, Audience and Argument. I focus on the argument. I don't really care how the audience perceives me. And the argument (loss of a single point), is irrelevant. I also don't concern myself with the illusion of perfect justice. I'm OK with there being injustice in the world, even if I'm the one whose being cheated. Especially if I'm being cheated out of something of almost no real value.
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Everybody may have their own opinions. I prefer to increase fair play and have a game where everyone can enjoy. That does not matter to you. Cool.
I have seen more of this than I have blatant cheating, but I have definitely seen both.
I also run I to the problem that a lot of middle aged and older guys at 3.5/4.0 aren't used to fast, spinny, serves:
Had a dubs line recently where one of the guys called 2 serves that were on or just inside the line out. Questionable but I'm used to that and gave him the benefit he just wasn't used to the pace. Then get to deuce (no ad scoring) and calls a ball out that was 2ft inside the line on a kick serve.
Still not even sure if he was hooking me game one but the result is the same if you're gonna call like that.
