Who was better in their prime, Steffi Graf or Martina Hingis?

Who was the better Tennis Player both in their primes, Graff or Hingis?

  • Total voters
    147
B

backhander

Rookie
Condoleezza said:
So close and yet so far - she had to play Ms. Graf in the Wimbledon final.
Lost 2-6 1-6. An all-time record for #1 players in slam finals.

Condi
Click to expand...

Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. That pretty much explains the lopsided score. It was commented that the Seles in the final was definitely not the Seles that had won the first 2 slams of the year. Not to take anything away from Graf, she played great, but don't act as if Seles was not even close to accomplishing a Grand Slam, she was one match away.

In any event, this thread is about Graf and Hingis, and I do say that Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime. I think Hingis had the better tennis mind, she just didn't have the athleticism and weapons of Graf.
 
L

laurie

Guest
Honestly, I thought I was in www.wtaworld.com for a moment. Graf with her incredible forehand and athletic movement and great sliced backhand is legendary - she could also come over her backhand with topspin from time to time with great effect.

What sort of crazy question is this??
 
CEvertFan

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
backhander said:
Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. That pretty much explains the lopsided score. It was commented that the Seles in the final was definitely not the Seles that had won the first 2 slams of the year. Not to take anything away from Graf, she played great, but don't act as if Seles was not even close to accomplishing a Grand Slam, she was one match away.

In any event, this thread is about Graf and Hingis, and I do say that Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime. I think Hingis had the better tennis mind, she just didn't have the athleticism and weapons of Graf.
Click to expand...

I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.
 
B

backhander

Rookie
CEvertFan said:
I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.
Click to expand...

Yah, the forehand I think really holds Hingis back, the different in pace from her backhand to her forehand is pretty big. She'd fare much better from the baseline if her forehand could be struck as hard and as clean as her backhand.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
backhander said:
Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. ....
Click to expand...


Awwww!

Simply watch (and listen to!) Seles at her 0-6 1-6 Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
Fact.

Condi
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
CEvertFan said:
I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.
Click to expand...

What do you know about the tennis mind of Lenglen?
Tell us!

Condi
 
B

backhander

Rookie
Condoleezza said:
Awwww!

Simply watch (and listen to!) Seles at her 0-6 1-6 Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
Fact.

Condi
Click to expand...

Fact, Graf seemed to benefit alot from Seles forced misfortunes.
 
lambielspins

lambielspins

Banned
backhander said:
Fact, Graf seemed to benefit alot from Seles forced misfortunes.
Click to expand...

Seles would never have won the 92 Wimbledon final. If she could barely beat Graf 10-8 in the 3rd on clay a month before that, she was always going to be hard pressed to even get a set vs Graf on grass in the Wimbledon final.

Actually the difference in their 92 matches at the French vs Wimbledon is about on par with 89:

89 French Open semis: Graf defeats Seles 6-3, 3-6, 6-3. 89 Wimbledon 4th round: Graf defeats Seles 6-1, 6-0

92 French Open final: Seles defeats Graf 6-2, 3-6, 10-8. 92 Wimbledon final: Graf defeats Seles 6-2, 6-1

The grunting thing is a silly footnote for people bored and wanting something trivial to talk about.
 
Last edited:
C

Condoleezza

Banned
CEvertFan said:
Probably what any of us do that are still alive today. WHAT WE'VE READ ABOUT HER.
Click to expand...

I have never read anything special on her "tennis mind".
She was by far the best tennis player in her time. The rest of the field consisted of some society girls. So she didn't need a great tennis mind. She sipped her cognac and went out to beat those chicks at will. Case closed.

Condi
 
CEvertFan

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Condoleezza said:
I have never read anything special on her "tennis mind".
She was by far the best tennis player in her time. The rest of the field consisted of some society girls. So she didn't need a great tennis mind. She sipped her cognac and went out to beat those chicks at will. Case closed.

Condi
Click to expand...

Here's a couple of things that I have read regarding Lenglen:

"She is a brilliant court general, conducting her attack with a keen eye on both the court and the gallery." - excerpt from a book called 'The Art of Lawn Tennis' by William T. Tilden
Yes THAT Tilden.


Ted Tinling, in an article in World Tennis Magazine back in the 80's, said that Lenglen played tennis like a chessmaster. I believe it was the issue where he picked the greatest woman player of all time.

So I am just reiterating what I've read.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
CEvertFan said:
Here's a couple of things that I have read regarding Lenglen:

"She is a brilliant court general, conducting her attack with a keen eye on both the court and the gallery." - excerpt from a book called 'The Art of Lawn Tennis' by William T. Tilden
Yes THAT Tilden. ....
Click to expand...

Which Tilden?

Condi
 
CEvertFan

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Condoleezza said:
Which Tilden?

Condi
Click to expand...



Even though I know I am getting suckered here I will nevertheless answer. The Tilden I am referring to is Bill Tilden the tennis player and contemporary of Lenglen, who is undisputedly regarded as the best player of his time and some people have even suggested he's the best ever to have played the game. I have a one word suggestion for you- Google.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
CEvertFan said:
Even though I know I am getting suckered here I will nevertheless answer. The Tilden I am referring to is Bill Tilden the tennis player and contemporary of Lenglen, who is undisputedly regarded as the best player of his time and some people have even suggested he's the best ever to have played the game. I have a one word suggestion for you- Google.
Click to expand...

What would I do without you ...

:roll:


Condi
 
CEvertFan

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
I can't believe that 5 people voted for Hingis who is a great player in her own right, but clearly not better than Steffi. That is just ridiculous. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Maybe they did it just to upset you Condi. ;)
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
CEvertFan said:
I can't believe that 5 people voted for Hingis who is a great player in her own right, but clearly not better than Steffi. That is just ridiculous. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Maybe they did it just to upset you Condi. ;)
Click to expand...


Obviously 5 true American patriots ...

Condi
 
stormholloway

stormholloway

Legend
Andres Guazzelli said:
No, cause we're talking about diff eras, and we can't compare the achievements like that.

Graff and Navratilova overlapped their careers for the most time in both of their primes.

(wow, that was some lousy english! :mrgreen: )
Click to expand...

But you're comparing Nav's doubles titles with Graf. I think it's implied this is a matter of singles.

Graf has more singles slams and beat Navratilova in more slam finals.

Graf won the grand slam, the ultimate tennis achievement.
 
L

laurie

Guest
This had had 74 replies! Why?

This shouldn't even be a discussion or have a poll.

Anyone who really studies Tennis must know that Hingis in her prime was not better than Graf's.

Graf took Womens Tennis to a new level with power, athleticism and courage, plus her legendary forehand.

I struggle to think how Hingis moved Womens tennis to a new level, other than having a good Tennis brain - Anna Chakvetadze has a good Tennis brain. Hingis doesn't have either power or athleticism and was left behind by Venus, Serena, Capriati, even Davenport (who had worse movement but much more power), then the two Belgians and the young Russians. Plus Hingis lost the 1999 French Open final against Graf when she was a set and a break up - Graf at that point hadn't won a slam since 1996. Not only that but just a month later Lindsay Davenport would not make the same mistake against Graf in the Wimbledon final.

I'm sorry to say Hingis fans but this is not worth discussing.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
laurie said:
This had had 74 replies! Why?

This shouldn't even be a discussion or have a poll.

Anyone who really studies Tennis must know that Hingis in her prime was not better than Graf's.

Graf took Womens Tennis to a new level with power, athleticism and courage, plus her legendary forehand.

I struggle to think how Hingis moved Womens tennis to a new level, other than having a good Tennis brain - Anna Chakvetadze has a good Tennis brain. Hingis doesn't have either power or athleticism and was left behind by Venus, Serena, Capriati, even Davenport (who had worse movement but much more power), then the two Belgians and the young Russians. Plus Hingis lost the 1999 French Open final against Graf when she was a set and a break up - Graf at that point hadn't won a slam since 1996. Not only that but just a month later Lindsay Davenport would not make the same mistake against Graf in the Wimbledon final. ....
Click to expand...

We have to grant Hingis, though, that Graf was far more motivated in the FO final than in Wimbledon. And we must not forget that Graf clobbered Davenport in the FO quarters.

Condi
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Seles was in no way close to winning the Grand Slam in 92.

Condi
Click to expand...

Consider how young Seles was in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 when she was CLEARLY the best player in women's tennis other than at Wimbledon.

This goes back to the statement about competition ... Graf could not compare with Seles in those months between the 1990 Tour Championships and the stabbing in April 1993 ... even as young as Seles was, she was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis and this was AFTER Graf had had her best years in women's tennis in 1987-1989.
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Awwww!

Seles Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
Fact.

Condi
Click to expand...

NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
ATPballkid said:
NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).
Click to expand...


But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.
And beat Seles in 3 of 5 matches.
That alone prevents Seles from being called "dominant" even in 91-93.

So we can conclude that even at her highest peak and in Graf's deepest slump Seles was not able to dominate against Graf.


Condi
 
CEvertFan

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Condoleezza said:
But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.
And beat Seles in 3 of 5 matches.
That alone prevents Seles from being called "dominant" even in 91-93.

So we can conclude that even at her highest peak and in Graf's deepest slump Seles was not able to dominate against Graf.


Condi
Click to expand...

She indirectly dominated against Graf the same way Graf indirectly dominated against Martina because Steffi wasn't even making it to the finals to face off against Monica and the same thing was happening with the Martina/Steffi rivalry in the late 80's. Martina couldn't even make it to the finals to face Steffi more often than not. It's a big part of the reason that Martina and Steffi only played each other 18 times as opposed to a truly great rivalry ala Evert/Navratilova which stands at 80 matches.

If you are the #1 or #2 seed in a tournament and you haven't made it to the final then you haven't done your job.
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.

Condi
Click to expand...

Of course, she was ... and Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ... and Seles was #1 with no end in sight until one of your people stabbed Seles in the back with a knife after Seles had dominated 1991, 1992 and into 1993.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
CEvertFan said:
She indirectly dominated against Graf the same way Graf indirectly dominated against Martina because Steffi wasn't even making it to the finals to face off against Monica and the same thing was happening with the Martina/Steffi rivalry in the late 80's. Martina couldn't even make it to the finals to face Steffi more often than not. It's a big part of the reason that Martina and Steffi only played each other 18 times as opposed to a truly great rivalry ala Evert/Navratilova which stands at 80 matches.

If you are the #1 or #2 seed in a tournament and you haven't made it to the final then you haven't done your job.
Click to expand...

Well, that's the point:
Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.
In spring 1990 the Graf Blackmail Scandal began.
And Graf made only 4 of 12 major finals until end of 1992.

Of course the second-best player profited big-time ...


Condi
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Well, that's the point:
Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.
In spring 1990 the Graf Blackmail Scandal began.
And Graf made only 4 of 12 major finals until end of 1992.

Of course the second-best player profited big-time ...


Condi
Click to expand...

Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that.

The only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
ATPballkid said:
Of course, she was ... and Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ... and Seles was #1 with no end in sight until one of your people stabbed Seles in the back with a knife after Seles had dominated 1991, 1992 and into 1993.
Click to expand...

The end was clearly in sight.
Seles had a 58 pts. advantage in the rankings at the beginning of 1991.
In April 1993, just before the stabbing, only 21 pts.
Graf was closing the gap rapidly.

Seles's winning percentage had dropped considerably in the last 12 months before the stabbing (only 92 % compared to 94 % the year before).

OK, we can say that maybe Seles would have been able to stem the tide. Her performance post-95 (when she was in peak prime tennis age) suggests otherwise, though ....

Condi
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Seles's winning percentage had dropped considerably in the last 12 months before the stabbing (only 92 % compared to 94 % the year before).

OK, we can say that maybe Seles would have been able to stem the tide. Her performance post-95 (when she was in peak prime tennis age) suggests otherwise, though ....

Condi
Click to expand...

Nope ... Steffi did not do this SINCE 1993.

Did you know that Seles won 10 of the 12 major titles between the 1990 WTA Tour Championships and the 1993 Australian Open before a Graf fan got tired of Seles being the #1 player in women's tennis and literally stabbed Monica Seles in the back with a sharp knife?

Graf lost to several different players to keep her from meeting up with Seles in most of those finals -- but it really did not matter which players beat Graf before the final rounds ... Seles was there to win the tournaments.
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Well, that's the point:
Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.

Condi
Click to expand...

And the reason for this is .... ????? Navratilova and Evert were in their 30s and losing a step or two as they were getting closer to retirement when Graf was able to win in 1987-1989 without having to come across Monica Seles at her peak .... Seles at her peak was better than Graf had been at her peak in that short window of time in the late 1980s between Navratilova and Evert dominating into the their 30s during the mid 1980s and their retirements.
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
The end was clearly in sight.
Seles had a 58 pts. advantage in the rankings at the beginning of 1991.
Condi
Click to expand...

1990 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1991 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1991 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................................. Seles skipped the 1991 Wimbledon.
1991 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1991 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1992 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1992 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................... Seles was runnerup at the 1992 Wimbledon.
1992 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION

Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.

The ONLY way for someone to have retaken #1 from Seles was death of Seles or a career-ending injury, stabbing, accident, or terminal and career-ending illness.

Enter Gunther Parche.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
ATPballkid said:
Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.
....
Click to expand...


Monica won 8 slams since the Graf Blackmail Scandal started.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Graf competing before or after Steffi was derailed royally by the ugly scandal. That would leave Monica with 4 (of which she won 1 in 96 because Graf was out due to injury).

Seles's career was kick-started by the Graf Blackmail Scandal. Without it she would have been some sort of Mandlikova or Sanchez - a pain in the ass for the greats but not a really great player.

Condi
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Monica won 8 slams since the Graf Blackmail Scandal started.


Condi
Click to expand...

Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a gun to Seles' head -- or a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
ATPballkid said:
....Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place. ....
Click to expand...

Seles vs. Graf 1991-93:
2-3 H2H
0-2 Wimbledon wins

Sorry, most certainly not "easily" the best.
And that although Graf had a negative H2H against grandma Navi in those years .... :D :D :D

Condi
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Graf was closing the gap rapidly.

Condi
Click to expand...

HERE is how far they were apart: MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS

SELES WON________________GRAF WON

1990 WTA Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
_________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 WTA Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
__________________________ 1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 WTA Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Seles vs. Graf 1991-93:
2-3 H2H
0-2 Wimbledon wins

Sorry, most certainly not "easily" the best.
And that although Graf had a negative H2H against grandma Navi in those years .... :D :D :D

Condi
Click to expand...

Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

What part of this are you missing, Gunther/Condi?
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
ATPballkid said:
Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
....
Click to expand...


The point is that without the nasty Graf Blackmail Scandal of 1990/92 Graf would have continued to win 3 or 4 slams every year until the end of her career in 1999. Steffi would have ended it with about 45 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

Condi
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
ATPballkid said:
Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

What part of this are you missing, Gunther/Condi?
Click to expand...

Question: What does winning an event have to do with winning it in the next years?
Answer: Almost nothing.

Condi
 
A

ATPballkid

Professional
Condoleezza said:
Question: What does winning an event have to do with winning it in the next years?
Answer: Almost nothing.

Condi
Click to expand...

The fact remains Seles won 10 of the 12 major singles titles before a Graf fan LITERALLY resorted to stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Pretty sad for Graf and her fans to have that as such a huge part of her history.
 
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