Whose *peak* ground game is better, Ralph's or Nole's???

[Towser83]

Exactly, the only men to win 2 or more sets against Nadal at RG are Soderling and Isner. It remains to be seen whether Djoker will add his name to this prestigious list this year.

I still think Federer used that mono "excuse" as "sour grapes" after losing to Djoker though. No way he was beating AO 2008 Djoker, who seemed to have learned from all his mistakes in that USO 2007 final.

i don't think he said he still had mono at the AO, just that it effected his training but i can't remember him making too much excuse for that particular loss, i could be wrong. Again with more training it'd be closer probably but I think Novak was just the best player at that time and deserved to win.

I do think Federer had a chance to beat Nadal at RG in 2006 where he'd outplayed him in Rome and still lost, been a tiebreak away from a 5th at MC and again a tiebreak from a 5th at RG. Nadal was nervous at the start of the match but Federer couldn't keep his foot on the gas or regroup like he did in Rome where he responded to going 2 sets to 1 down from a set up, by taking the 4th 6-2.

In 2008 though nadal was playing his best ever tennis at RG, everything was on song. Federer picked the worst day not to show up because another day he'd have made it respectible even playing lacklustre, but that day it was a disaster for him.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

I've heard Fed using the AO 2008 mono excuse in a recent interview for why he didn't play Rotterdam that year, that's why I brought it up. But yeah Fed was pretty gracious overall in that defeat, as opposed to some other ones that he's suffered to Novak recently.

 

[Towser83]

That may be true, but Nadal had a catastrophic collapse from 4-5 30-0 in the first set until the end of the second set. I doubt Nadal has ever played that poorly at Wimbledon in his career, despite how well Djokovic played to take advantage and take a 2 set lead.

true, i guess Nadal suffered the "federers" in that match but my point is they are very closely matched on grass. Of course Nathaniel Near pointed out Nada lhas a better record on grass overall

 

[Bender]

this is about best level vs best level though, so if Nadal let's say played better than he did at RG in 2008 and still lost to Djokovic then you'd have to say despite more RG titles his best level was not as good as Djokovic's. It's a bit hard to choose because you can always say one guy was not at his best and if he was he would have won etc.. I will say despite Nadal winning 2 Wimbledons and Novak 1, they're about even on grass. Wimbledon 2007 was a set all and nadal a break up when Djokovic retired after paying the price for several long 4 and 5 set matches, queens 2008 was really close and might have had the fact that Djokovic had yet to beat nadal in a final,playing a part. Last year nadal was near his best at Wimbledon.

Again, you make a valid point, but you have to remember that this is about better ground game compared to each other, not against each other. Against each other, as it stands, of course Djokovic's ground game is better, but that's not what this question is about.

OP is asking who's got the better ground game on its own merits. It's not like Djokovic retired from every Wimbledon except for 2011. He lost to somebody, whilst Rafa made it to five finals, winning two. Based on that, I'd say that Rafa's (grass) ground game (until recently) was better than Djokovic's.

I'll agree with Nadal playing very well in the Wimbledon 2011 final, his serve was on fire that day. But I think his ground game was not as great as 2008. Funnily enough, I thought it was there at the first game or two of that match but it evaporated, so I guess not.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

DFTW, I just got confused because I didn't know that you supported Fed as well. Now I see why you question the Djoker-Fed H2H from 2008-2011. But if you notice, Djoker and Fed only played 2x in 2008: once at AO, a surface that suits Djoker much more than Federer, and once at USO, a surface that suits Federer more than Djoker. And Djoker did beat Federer 2x in a row in 2009, so he did repeat the victories again in about a year's time, although they were not straight set victories like the AO 2008 victory was.

But that said, I don't necessarily agree with you that it has to "appear" again in a reasonable amount of time. Look at Sharapova-S. Williams H2H. Nobody would argue that Sharapova owned S. Williams in the 2004 Wimbly final. It was a total beatdown. But who's gotten beatdown pretty much every time since then? It still doesn't take away the fact that on that one day, Sharapova was much better than S. Williams in every department. Same thing here with the Djoker-Federer AO 2008 SF.

Where did I question the Fed-Djoker H2H from 2008 to 2011? I only questioned the one match at AO. Which slams did Djoker beat in 2009? Far as I recall Fed reached all 4 finals in 2009, no?

Ask Serena why she got beat in 2004, she'll tell you why. One has to learn to recognize anomalies and have them fit the data. I'm not saying Fed would have for sure won had he not had mono in 2008 but it certainly wouldn't have been 3 straight. Hell, did you watch the match against Tipsy in the 4th round? Tipsy almost took him out! That should tell you something.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Hell, did you watch the match against Tipsy in the 4th round? Tipsy almost took him out! That should tell you something.

Yes, and the very next year Berdych almost took him out in the 4th round as well and Federer still managed to reach the finals, destroying Roddick in the SF in the process.

Look, all I'm saying is, when you step on the court to play, cut the crap with the excuses if you lose. *Especially* in Australia, where the people seem to respect this tenet the most. Sharapova destroyed Serena in Wimbly 2004 final, I don't care what anyone said, and likewise Nole owned Fed in 2008 AO SF.

 

[NadalAgassi]

this is about best level vs best level though, so if Nadal let's say played better than he did at RG in 2008 and still lost to Djokovic then you'd have to say despite more RG titles his best level was not as good as Djokovic's. It's a bit hard to choose because you can always say one guy was not at his best and if he was he would have won etc.. I will say despite Nadal winning 2 Wimbledons and Novak 1, they're about even on grass. Wimbledon 2007 was a set all and nadal a break up when Djokovic retired after paying the price for several long 4 and 5 set matches, queens 2008 was really close and might have had the fact that Djokovic had yet to beat nadal in a final,playing a part. Last year nadal was near his best at Wimbledon.

I mostly agree with what you are saying. However who would win a head to head matchup is not the same as whose level is the highest in all cases. Otherwise you would have to concede Nadal's best is better than Federer's best on outdoor hard courts with a 5-1 lifetime h2h and the only Federer win being when Nadal lost a 2 sets to 0 and 3rd set lead. However even as a Nadal fan I would not say that.

Nadal at his best is definitely a better grass court player than Novak at his. Novak even as he is today would have been destroyed by Federer at Wimbledon 2007 and 2008 (granted part of that is Nadal being a worse matchup for Federer, but still). The only reason a match on grass with both at their career peaks would probably be close is the matchup problems Djokovic presents for Nadal.
With both at their peak Nadal would have a much better chance of winning Wimbledon than Djokovic in anything other than the mostly **** weak grass field of today with no other contenders, thus ensuring their meeting in the final where Djokovic has a fairly good chance due to the matchup. If it were in Federer's prime Nadal would have more chance since he would atleast have a chance of beating Federer, while Djokovic would have none. Djokovic's only chance would be to hope Federer and Nadal played in the semis and Nadal won. In a field with more top grass courters, Djokovic's chances would be even less. Peak Roddick would be a nightmare for even the current Djokovic to play on grass, especialy considering their H2H history when Roddick wasnt even in his prime. The current Djokovic would probably still take peak Roddick on other surfaces despite that but on grass I highly doubt it. Peak Hewitt would also be a nightmare for Djokovic on grass, much moreso than he would be for Nadal. I wont even get into the 90s grass fields where most likely neither Nadal or Djokovic would stand any chance (Federer would still be a contender but would never dominate).

 

[NadalAgassi]

But that said, I don't necessarily agree with you that it has to "appear" again in a reasonable amount of time. Look at Sharapova-S. Williams H2H. Nobody would argue that Sharapova owned S. Williams in the 2004 Wimbly final. It was a total beatdown. But who's gotten beatdown pretty much every time since then? It still doesn't take away the fact that on that one day, Sharapova was much better than S. Williams in every department. Same thing here with the Djoker-Federer AO 2008 SF.

Yes Maria did play an amazing match in the 2004 Wimbledon, thoroughly outplaying Serena and deserving of her first of 3 slam titles that day. However if we are talking best on best, would Maria at her best ever beat the Serena of the 2007 Australian Open final on any surface? Would Maria beat the 2002-2003 version of Serena on any surface? Obvious answer is no so whose best is better is an easy call. The only player whose best is better than Serena's in the last 15 years is Henin on clay (arguably), Venus on grass (again arguably). Venus on decoturf is pretty close too, and maybe Clijsters on fast U.S Open style hard courts.

Djokovic vs Federer at the Australian Open is a more interesting discussion. They never met at their mutual best there, but Djokovic of the 2008 and 2011 Australian Opens would be hard for even peak Federer to beat. 2 such comprehensive beatdowns, not just 1, of Federer in the semis, regardless if not at his peak, are quite telling. Djokovic looks likely to surpass Federer's record there as well, which would further validate the suggestion his best is better there.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Yes, and the very next year Berdych almost took him out in the 4th round as well and Federer still managed to reach the finals, destroying Roddick in the SF in the process.

Look, all I'm saying is, when you step on the court to play, cut the crap with the excuses if you lose. *Especially* in Australia, where the people seem to respect this tenet the most. Sharapova destroyed Serena in Wimbly 2004 final, I don't care what anyone said, and likewise Nole owned Fed in 2008 AO SF.

Fine then Djoker should have no excuses for not even getting to a slam final again until 2010 USO! It just does not add up. Yes Djoker may have played well that day in 2008, but it was surely combined with mono ridden play from Fed. You simply cannot discount that. Hell if Isner takes Nadal to 5 sets, all of a sudden Nadal is playing his worst ever on clay! Yet when Tipsy takes Fed almost out in 5 sets in a much closer match, there is no mono there at all? Please.

 

[Mustard]

But if you notice, Djoker and Fed only played 2x in 2008: once at AO, a surface that suits Djoker much more than Federer, and once at USO, a surface that suits Federer more than Djoker.

Don't forget the 2008 Monte Carlo semi final where Djokovic retired with a sore throat.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

I never said Nadal played his worst ever on clay when Isner took him to 5? Isner played the best match of his career that day (until the Federer upset), that's why that match went 5.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Don't forget the 2008 Monte Carlo semi final where Djokovic retired with a sore throat.

Thanks, Mustard. So Fed led the H2H 2-1 in 2008 but it was 1-1 in Slams that year. Likewise, Nole led the H2H over Fed 3-2 in 2009 but Fed got the lone Slam victory (at USO 2009).

Look, let's just give Nole his due credit here. He beat Federer fair and square, 3-0, in AO 2008 SF. Major props to him for that. And he did the same thing again in AO 2011 and Fed didn't cry "mono" there, so I don't see why we have to drag in that mono excuse for the AO 2008 victory. Of course, now that I've said that, I'm sure someone will drag in the "Fed 2011 was in decline" excuse :twisted:

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

that is a very good point!

What I would say though is I think though it's worth noting that no-one would argue against Djokovic being a better hardcourt player yet between 2007 and 2010 he only made one more hardcourt slam final than nadal and won 1 less slam title... basically he wasn't as good at competing and getting to finals, I don't think his grass game was really that much worse but he just didn't seem comfortable there and he didn't apply himself as much.

I agree. There's a hard balance to strike when coming to these sort of judgments. Was Nole's 2011 form on grass as good as Nadal's ever was? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, and certainly - as you have rightly pointed out - you can't just form an arbitrary opinion because one player has won more often on a surface than another player, though it can certainly help to form an opinion.

In this case, is the chasm too gaping between the two players achievements on grass-courts? Nadal has shown the ability to get through the draw on many occasions at Wimbledon, showing that he has been much better than Djokovic at imposing his ground game on every type of player rather than just some.

In this instance, even if it were possible to prove that Nole 2011 on grass >>> Nadal any year, it's virtually inconsequential due to the profound difference in results that the two have on the surface. In other words, as things stand, Nole's 2011 grass form is an anomaly. It's certainly something to think about.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

I never said Nadal played his worst ever on clay when Isner took him to 5? Isner played the best match of his career that day (until the Federer upset), that's why that match went 5.

most ****s say Nadal was all of a sudden at his worst on clay just because Isner took him to 5.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Please sir (or ma'am), I am not a "****." I am a respectful fan of this beautiful sport. I don't make excuses for *anyone's* losses, whether injury-related or otherwise.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Please sir (or ma'am), I am not a "****." I am a respectful fan of this beautiful sport. I don't make excuses for *anyone's* losses, whether injury-related or otherwise.

THat's cool. So in the end only the results matter for you, right?

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

THat's cool. So in the end only the results matter for you, right?

Pretty much. If you didn't win, you just plain lost, whether it's due to injury, illness, mental problems, racket broken, gear messed up, etc, etc, etc. The other guy played better than you on that final point, and in tennis, that's all that matters.

 

[Towser83]

I mostly agree with what you are saying. However who would win a head to head matchup is not the same as whose level is the highest in all cases. Otherwise you would have to concede Nadal's best is better than Federer's best on outdoor hard courts with a 5-1 lifetime h2h and the only Federer win being when Nadal lost a 2 sets to 0 and 3rd set lead. However even as a Nadal fan I would not say that.

Nadal at his best is definitely a better grass court player than Novak at his. Novak even as he is today would have been destroyed by Federer at Wimbledon 2007 and 2008 (granted part of that is Nadal being a worse matchup for Federer, but still). The only reason a match on grass with both at their career peaks would probably be close is the matchup problems Djokovic presents for Nadal.

yeah i discussed this when nathanial near brought it up, it is a very good point. Overall nadal has been better on grass, however he has struggled in 2006, 2007 and 2010 to make it past players that you wouldn't rate as especially tough players to beat. This is why I think it's in large part his fighting spirit that makes up for his lack of ease on grass (not major lackof ease, but it's still there) Djokovic didn't have the same ability to drag out wins on a surface he was not used to. So i still think gamewise it's closer than some people think.

With Federer and Nadal I don't think they met that many times on outdoor hard when they were both in their primes. Their matches in 2004, 2005 and 2006 were when Federer was in his and Nadal leads 2-1 in those, though the first match probably took Federer by total surprise, Dubai 2006 was a great win for nadal because Federer looked to have that one. 2009 onwards starts to favour Nadal and he wins all of them. I get what you say about H2H not being the defining issue here. I do admit Nadal has achieved more on grass, but playing level wise i do think it is not as wide as that. That's just an opinion. I agree Nole would have a bad time against Federer on grass although these days Fed is pretty ropey on grass.

 

[Mustard]

Federer played a lot better at the 2008 Australian Open than many people seem to think. The 5-setter against Tipsarevic in the R32 is probably the best match Tipsarevic has ever played. Federer's other wins on his way to the semi finals were straight set wins over Hartfield, Santoro, Berdych and Blake. In the semi final against Djokovic, Federer served for the first set and failed, went 2 breaks down in the second set and got 1 back but lost the set to go 2 sets down, and missed numerous chances in the third set and failed to take them.

Federer's form was worse in February and March, but better by the clay-court season aside from the Hidalgo match in Monte Carlo.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Federer played a lot better at the 2008 Australian Open than many people seem to think. The 5-setter against Tipsarevic in the R32 is probably the best match Tipsarevic has ever played. Federer's other wins on his way to the semi finals were straight set wins over Hartfield, Santoro, Berdych and Blake. In the semi final against Djokovic, Federer served for the first set and failed, went 2 breaks down in the second set and got 1 back but lost the set to go 2 sets down, and missed numerous chances in the third set and failed to take them.

Federer's form was worse in February and March, but better by the clay-court season aside from the Hidalgo match in Monte Carlo.

LOL so Tipsy played the best match of his life, yet Isner taking Nadal to 5 was all about Nadal's decline on clay. Biased much ****?

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

]Federer played a lot better at the 2008 Australian Open than many people seem to think. The 5-setter against Tipsarevic in the R32 is probably the best match Tipsarevic has ever played.[/B]

Exactly my point. Don't bring up the mono excuse for the loss to Djoker in the SF, because Fed had a 5-setter in the same exact round the next year and he demolished his SF opponent that year (Roddick) before losing in 5 to Nadal in the finals. And yet, no mention of mono or any other illness that year (as far as I've heard).

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Exactly my point. Don't bring up the mono excuse for the loss to Djoker in the SF, because Fed had a 5-setter in the same exact round the next year and he demolished his SF opponent that year (Roddick) before losing in 5 to Nadal in the finals. And yet, no mention of mono or any other illness that year (as far as I've heard).

So you agree Isner took peak Nadal to 5 sets on clay at FO? And Soderling beat peak Nadal on clay at FO?

 

[Towser83]

I agree. There's a hard balance to strike when coming to these sort of judgments. Was Nole's 2011 form on grass as good as Nadal's ever was? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, and certainly - as you have rightly pointed out - you can't just form an arbitrary opinion because one player has won more often on a surface than another player, though it can certainly help to form an opinion.

In this case, is the chasm too gaping between the two players achievements on grass-courts? Nadal has shown the ability to get through the draw on many occasions at Wimbledon, showing that he has been much better than Djokovic at imposing his ground game on every type of player rather than just some.

In this instance, even if it were possible to prove that Nole 2011 on grass >>> Nadal any year, it's virtually inconsequential due to the profound difference in results that the two have on the surface. In other words, as things stand, Nole's 2011 grass form is an anomaly. It's certainly something to think about.

No I'm not saying Nole'sform is better, but i think talent wise it's pretty close. Djokovic is the youngest player to make at least the semis of all 4 slams and I think his game adapts well to grass if he puts in enough determination. Nadal has had numerous 5 setters to lower ranked guys at wimbledon but toughed them out, Djokovic sometimes has not had that inner strength. You are right that his wimbledon 2011 win could be a one off and nadal has achieved more on grass than Novak, but i think they both have some issues on grass and are not that far apart on the surface. I guess time will tell, if djokovic doesn't make any more finals, that's pretty decisive.

 

[NadalAgassi]

yeah i discussed this when nathanial near brought it up, it is a very good point. Overall nadal has been better on grass, however he has struggled in 2006, 2007 and 2010 to make it past players that you wouldn't rate as especially tough players to beat. This is why I think it's in large part his fighting spirit that makes up for his lack of ease on grass (not major lackof ease, but it's still there) Djokovic didn't have the same ability to drag out wins on a surface he was not used to. So i still think gamewise it's closer than some people think.

With Federer and Nadal I don't think they met that many times on outdoor hard when they were both in their primes. Their matches in 2004, 2005 and 2006 were when Federer was in his and Nadal leads 2-1 in those, though the first match probably took Federer by total surprise, Dubai 2006 was a great win for nadal because Federer looked to have that one. 2009 onwards starts to favour Nadal and he wins all of them. I get what you say about H2H not being the defining issue here. I do admit Nadal has achieved more on grass, but playing level wise i do think it is not as wide as that. That's just an opinion. I agree Nole would have a bad time against Federer on grass although these days Fed is pretty ropey on grass.

Fair enough. However as this is a thread about absolute peak playing, not a thread about general primes, I would say Wimbledon 2008 was Nadal's peak by far. His play in no other years, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, all included, came anywhere near that. He crushed everyone in his draw, where even in 2007 and 2010 he struggled past a number of guys. Some of the guys were the same ones he had struggled with in other draws (eg- Youzhny).

So Djokovic of 2011 probably is close to the Nadal of 2007 and 2010 at Wimbledon, but that just means Djokovic at by far his own peak Wimbledon in playing level so far is close to Nadal's playing level at his 2nd and 3rd best Wimbledons (in playing level) so far. I dont think Djokovic of 2011's level on grass is nearly as high as Nadal's of the final 3 rounds of Wimbledon 2007 or of Wimbledon 2008, regardless how a head to head matchup between the two might go. JMO of course.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

No I'm not saying Nole'sform is better, but i think talent wise it's pretty close. Djokovic is the youngest player to make at least the semis of all 4 slams and I think his game adapts well to grass if he puts in enough determination. Nadal has had numerous 5 setters to lower ranked guys at wimbledon but toughed them out, Djokovic sometimes has not had that inner strength. You are right that his wimbledon 2011 win could be a one off and nadal has achieved more on grass than Novak, but i think they both have some issues on grass and are not that far apart on the surface. I guess time will tell, if djokovic doesn't make any more finals, that's pretty decisive.

2012 should pretty much settle Djoker's dominance over Nadal on all surfaces.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

So you agree Isner took peak Nadal to 5 sets on clay at FO? And Soderling beat peak Nadal on clay at FO?

Yes definitely. Nadal would never have entered those events if he hadn't believed he was in peak condition to win it. I don't want to hear any "bad knees/divorce" excuses for Nadal's loss to Soderling just as much as I don't want to hear any "mono/bad back" excuses for Fed's loss to Djoker in AO 2008.

And Nadal was definitely peak, or close to peak, form on clay last year -- he only lost to one guy all year long pretty much! Isner took it to him, and he built on that confidence this year with the victory over Feds. Mad props to Isner.

And with that said, I've achieved 50 posts on this site! Yay! Time to upload an avatar!!

 

[Towser83]

Federer played a lot better at the 2008 Australian Open than many people seem to think. The 5-setter against Tipsarevic in the R32 is probably the best match Tipsarevic has ever played. Federer's other wins on his way to the semi finals were straight set wins over Hartfield, Santoro, Berdych and Blake. In the semi final against Djokovic, Federer served for the first set and failed, went 2 breaks down in the second set and got 1 back but lost the set to go 2 sets down, and missed numerous chances in the third set and failed to take them.

Federer's form was worse in February and March, but better by the clay-court season aside from the Hidalgo match in Monte Carlo.

this is true.I thought he looked more effected by mono in Dubai/IW/Miami than any other point in the year, whether he was or not though is just speculation.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Yes definitely. Nadal would never have entered those events if he hadn't believed he was in peak condition to win it. I don't want to hear any "bad knees/divorce" excuses for Nadal's loss to Soderling just as much as I don't want to hear any "mono/bad back" excuses for Fed's loss to Djoker in AO 2008.

And Nadal was definitely peak, or close to peak, form on clay last year -- he only lost to one guy all year long pretty much! Isner took it to him, and he built on that confidence this year with the victory over Feds. Mad props to Isner.

And with that said, I've achieved 50 posts on this site! Yay! Time to upload an avatar!!

Ok fair enough, at least you're consistent. But Nadal being at his best and taken to 5 by Isner on clay, discuss that with Mustard . Have fun!

 

[Mustard]

LOL so Tipsy played the best match of his life, yet Isner taking Nadal to 5 was all about Nadal's decline on clay. Biased much ****?

Isner played well and is a better clay-court player than many people seem to think, but Nadal didn't play that well on clay in 2011 by his standards. That was obvious as early as the Monte Carlo semi final against Murray. Murray nearly pulled out of the match yet took a 6-2 set off Nadal and threatened to beat him at times until his level dropped off in the third set. There's the Djokovic beating in Madrid and going a set down to Paolo Lorenzi in Rome, a player ranked 148 in the world at the time.

 

[Towser83]

Fair enough. However as this is a thread about absolute peak playing, not a thread about general primes, I would say Wimbledon 2008 was Nadal's peak by far. His play in no other years, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, all included, came anywhere near that. He crushed everyone in his draw, where even in 2007 and 2010 he struggled past a number of guys. Some of the guys were the same ones he had struggled with in other draws (eg- Youzhny).

So Djokovic of 2011 probably is close to the Nadal of 2007 and 2010 at Wimbledon, but that just means Djokovic at by far his own peak Wimbledon in playing level so far is close to Nadal's playing level at his 2nd and 3rd best Wimbledons (in playing level) so far. I dont think Djokovic of 2011's level on grass is nearly as high as Nadal's of the final 3 rounds of Wimbledon 2007 or of Wimbledon 2008, regardless how a head to head matchup between the two might go. JMO of course.

fair enough, i guess we just have to see whether these guys have another level to go to and judge it as it unfolds and again when the dust settles. You never know what will have in tennis, 2 months can be a total game changer.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Isner played well and is a better clay-court player than many people seem to think, but Nadal didn't play that well on clay in 2011 by his standards. That was obvious as early as the Monte Carlo semi final against Murray. Murray nearly pulled out of the match yet took a 6-2 set off Nadal and threatened to beat him at times until his level dropped off in the third set. There's the Djokovic beating in Madrid and going a set down to Paolo Lorenzi in Rome, a player ranked 148 in the world at the time.

Clearly Federer was also not at his best in AO2008 as evidenced by mono. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

No I'm not saying Nole'sform is better, but i think talent wise it's pretty close. Djokovic is the youngest player to make at least the semis of all 4 slams and I think his game adapts well to grass if he puts in enough determination. Nadal has had numerous 5 setters to lower ranked guys at wimbledon but toughed them out, Djokovic sometimes has not had that inner strength. You are right that his wimbledon 2011 win could be a one off and nadal has achieved more on grass than Novak, but i think they both have some issues on grass and are not that far apart on the surface. I guess time will tell, if djokovic doesn't make any more finals, that's pretty decisive.

Yeh, am just pointing out interesting aspects for debate - it's in my nature. I haven't stated my opinion yet but basically I find it quite likely that Nole's 2011 form is at least close to any year from Nadal at Wimbledon, but that the gaping chasm in results leads me to give Nadal a clear but possibly close edge.

Certainly it can be hard to determine how much of various failures are down to not being able to compete as well on a mental level, or weaker tennis technique at the time and things like this, and to compound the issue of judgement, all of these things make up the whole body of mind and form which facilitates the path of one's own personal tennis apex. So indeed, where does one draw the line in segmenting aspects of one's game when they are so intrinsic.

Across all surfaces I'm finding the question... too hard to call! *STAMP*

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

You never know what will have in tennis, 2 months can be a total game changer.

Lol so true. In March 2009, after watching Federer get destroyed by Djoker in Miami 2009 (and destroying his own racket in the process), I told a friend of mine, a former top junior player from Sweden, that there was no way Nadal wouldn't continue his dominance all year long and that Fed was unlikely to win a Slam that year! Boy, was I ever wrong! :twisted:

 

[Towser83]

Yes definitely. Nadal would never have entered those events if he hadn't believed he was in peak condition to win it. I don't want to hear any "bad knees/divorce" excuses for Nadal's loss to Soderling just as much as I don't want to hear any "mono/bad back" excuses for Fed's loss to Djoker in AO 2008.

And Nadal was definitely peak, or close to peak, form on clay last year -- he only lost to one guy all year long pretty much! Isner took it to him, and he built on that confidence this year with the victory over Feds. Mad props to Isner.

And with that said, I've achieved 50 posts on this site! Yay! Time to upload an avatar!!

Congrats, I like the avatar and username -JMDP is another of my favourite players.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Congrats, I like the avatar and username -JMDP is another of my favourite players.

Thanks! I like this website a lot. Glad to finally be a member here after lurking for so long.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Thanks! I like this website a lot. Glad to finally be a member here after lurking for so long.

Heh heh, I was wondering if you'd immediately sport an avatar as soon as you hit 50!

 

[Mustard]

Clearly Federer was also not at his best in AO2008 as evidenced by mono. You can't have it both ways.

At what point in the 2008 Australian Open did Federer play poorly? He was uncharacterisic in failing to take his chances in the semi finals against Djokovic, where both the first and third sets were very winnable for Federer, and he played against Tipsarevic on Tipsarevic's best day in that 6-7, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1, 10-8 Federer win.

 

[Towser83]

Yeh, am just pointing out interesting aspects for debate - it's in my nature. I haven't stated my opinion yet but basically I find it quite likely that Nole's 2011 form is at least close to any year from Nadal at Wimbledon, but that the gaping chasm in results leads me to give Nadal a clear but possibly close edge.

Certainly it can be hard to determine how much of various failures are down to not being able to compete as well on a mental level, or weaker tennis technique at the time and things like this and to compound the issue of judgement, all of these things make up the whole body of mind and form which facilitates the path of one's own personal tennis apex. So indeed, where does one draw the line in segmenting aspects of one's game when they are so intrinsic.

Across all surfaces I'm finding the question... too hard to call! *STAMP*

Yeah it can be very hard indeed to isolate different aspects and discuss them -it's all opinion at the end of the day, but you';re a thoughtful and thought provoking poster, it's apleasure to read what you have to say.

Lol so true. In March 2009, after watching Federer get destroyed by Djoker in Miami 2009 (and destroying his own racket in the process), I told a friend of mine, a former top junior player from Sweden, that there was no way Nadal wouldn't continue his dominance all year long and that Fed was unlikely to win a Slam that year! Boy, was I ever wrong! :twisted:

haha yeah after AO final in 2009 I said that Federer would never again beat Nadal in any match and would never win a slam again. Then in may we have Madrid and RG... That's why I don't get people thinking Nadal won't beat Djokovic again. In fact Nadal has time on his side, he's only a year older than Djokovic.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

At what point in the 2008 Australian Open did Federer play poorly? He was uncharacterisic in failing to take his chances in the semi finals against Djokovic, where both the first and third sets were very winnable for Federer, and he played against Tipsarevic on Tipsarevic's best day in that 6-7, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1, 10-8 Federer win.

He played very poorly against both Tipsy and Djoker.

 

[Towser83]

Thanks! I like this website a lot. Glad to finally be a member here after lurking for so long.

A reasonable, non biased poster such as yourself is certainly much appreciated

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

A reasonable, non biased poster such as yourself is certainly much appreciated

Hehe...well, I'm not totally unbiased, you can clearly tell who my fave is and when I introduced myself in the "Del Potro Rising In the Rankings" post, I explained that I don't particularly like Federer, but I try to be as respectful about his records and game as possible. After all, somebody else may be totally opposite from me and loooooove Federer and think DelPo is a total loser, right? It's all opinion and shooting the fat here. Just want to have some fun discussing my favorite sport, is all

 

[MDCCLXXVI]

Nadal really only gets beat by players that are better than him at the time.

Djokovic can get beat by players that are worse than he is at the time.

--

I am a Nadal fan, but I voted Djokovic due to superior groundstrokes and equal defensive capabilities right now.

 

[Bender]

Hehe...well, I'm not totally unbiased, you can clearly tell who my fave is and when I introduced myself in the "Del Potro Rising In the Rankings" post, I explained that I don't particularly like Federer, but I try to be as respectful about his records and game as possible. After all, somebody else may be totally opposite from me and loooooove Federer and think DelPo is a total loser, right? It's all opinion and shooting the fat here. Just want to have some fun discussing my favorite sport, is all

Posters like you are rare.

I like to try be as unbiased as possible, but it's difficult to stay level-headed sometimes.

Case in point:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=414305

Maybe I'm not wording things simply enough.

 

[Bender]

Nadal really only gets beat by players that are better than him at the time.

Djokovic can get beat by players that are worse than he is at the time.

--

I am a Nadal fan, but I voted Djokovic due to superior groundstrokes and equal defensive capabilities right now.

That's like saying Rafa is unbeatable when he wins, or I'm not reading that right.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

phnx90 (love the avatar btw!), any thread that references "doping" on the very first page is an almost immediate no-no for me...

 

[Bender]

phnx90 (love the avatar btw!), any thread that references "doping" on the very first page is an almost immediate no-no for me...

Thanks, Bender Bending Rodriguez is awesome!

Ignore Mike Sams, he is at his peak levels of trolling, together with DjokovicForTheWin. I think they've both been doping on marijuana to sustain their levels.

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Why are the trolls so un-funny these days? I believe that internet trolls originally arose as some kind of equivalent to the circus clown act. Now they're just plain sad.

 

[Bender]

Why are the trolls so un-funny these days? I believe that internet trolls originally arose as some kind of equivalent to the circus clown act. Now they're just plain sad.

Maybe we should start a GTOAT (greatest troll of all time) poll.

We just need a list of users...

 

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Too bad MotherMarjorie is banned. She was my favorite from my "lurking" days. Definitely GTOAT, at least on these boards. Never quite saw a troll like her before, and I've been lurking around various tennis boards for years.

 

[Bender]

Too bad MotherMarjorie is banned. She was my favorite from my "lurking" days. Definitely GTOAT, at least on these boards. Never quite saw a troll like her before, and I've been lurking around various tennis boards for years.

Looks like the homogenisation of forums around the world has produced boring, one-dimensional trolls like the ones we have now...I say we ban new technologies like the computer and internet and go back to typewriters, pen and paper!