Switched to a topspin grip...hitting lots of unforced errors into the net

Brett · Jul 17, 2016

For 10-12 years I played with a flat forehand until I realized I need to stop and just make a full time switch to a semi-western grip.

Well it's been about 1 month and granted I have only been playing like once a week....but it still feel so uncomfortable and when I have been playing matches a large majority of the time I am making unforced errors due to just hitting the ball into the net. Funny because my main problem when I hit flat was way overhitting...now I have the opposite problem.

Other than imagining a higher clearance way over the net...is there any good suggestions? I have tried doing this in matches and I am still having the issue. My opponent today said it doesn't seem like I am swinging fast enough and maybe not as much low to high.

Just want to really fix this issue. Any tips/suggestions would be helpful. It still feel so awkward hitting with this grip and I have no confidence in my shots at all.

PittsburghDad · Jul 17, 2016

Were you switching from a full continental? Conti to a semi would be a huge step and need a lot of hours to bring to tame. If it was Eastern....well, you can get plenty massive topspin from an Eastern grip. The swing is the thing.

atp2015 · Jul 17, 2016

Could be low to high or too much spin or not enough juice. Post a video for useful feedback.

Lance L · Jul 17, 2016

Changing a stroke is going to take a lot longer than a month. Work on it slow and steady, practice when you can, but then play matches with whichever motion works better at the time. Eventually the new motion will overtake the old one.
I just starting hitting a 2hbh in matches. I've been working on it for about a year(I only play half the year)

TupeloDanger · Jul 17, 2016

Hit harder. If you maintain proper form, you almost literally can't hit the ball too hard, as more spin just brings it down and in with even more vengeance.

SystemicAnomaly · Jul 17, 2016

Keep in mind that, when you change from a conti or Eastern to a SW grip, the racket face will naturally be more closed unless you rotate your arm (forearm and/or shoulder) to compensate. If you have a steep enough low-to-high swing, you can hitting with a slightly closed racket face. You might be hitting with your racket face closed too much at contact. You might try either a steeper swing path (brush up more on the ball) or get your racket face closer to neutral (vertical) at impact.

A better solution for you might to switch to a milder version of the SW grip or to a strong or extreme version of the Eastern. The standard version of the Eastern grip is a bevel 3 grip while the SW is a bevel 4 grip. Try a 3+ or a 4- grip. Or go right in between with your base index knuckle on the edge between 3 and 4; a 3.5 grip, if you will.

You should be able to get decent topspin with any of these grip variations. Note that the 3 or 3+ grip will be better (or easier) for low balls, while the 4 or 4- will make high balls easier to hit,

Friedman Whip · Jul 17, 2016

I think it will take you much longer than a month playing one time a week. Much longer and playing at one time a week you may never get it. Here's a tip I discovered a long time ago about changing grips. You can't just change the grip. You have to change a bunch of other stuff too, like obviously the swing path of your racket, also your stance, maybe your backswing, your contact point, your shoulder position, your knee bend. It ain't easy. I'd say if you are not intending to be a serious player you may be better off not fooling with it. OTOH the SW is a better shot. Why do I say this? The majority of today's touring pros, men and women, aren't wrong. Margin of error. You can smack the heck out of the ball and it will still come back down in the court, and with a bigger topspin jump on it than an Eastern grip shot. I'm in the midst of going to SW myself. Changing from a part Eastern/part SW to full SW. I can hit the SW in practice and can see the benefits but can't bring myself yet to take the temporary hit in losing matches that going to it in competition will surely bring. Good luck to you.

dgold44 · Jul 17, 2016

Brett said:
For 10-12 years I played with a flat forehand until I realized I need to stop and just make a full time switch to a semi-western grip.

Well it's been about 1 month and granted I have only been playing like once a week....but it still feel so uncomfortable and when I have been playing matches a large majority of the time I am making unforced errors due to just hitting the ball into the net. Funny because my main problem when I hit flat was way overhitting...now I have the opposite problem.

Other than imagining a higher clearance way over the net...is there any good suggestions? I have tried doing this in matches and I am still having the issue. My opponent today said it doesn't seem like I am swinging fast enough and maybe not as much low to high.

Just want to really fix this issue. Any tips/suggestions would be helpful. It still feel so awkward hitting with this grip and I have no confidence in my shots at all.

IF something works ok in life- you dont change it

Nellie · Jul 17, 2016

You cannot just change your grip and continue to hit the same stroke. When you go to a more closed grip (Semi-Western or Western), you need to start lower and swing more vertically for top spin and hit further out front. The grip change itself does not nothing, but allows you to make these changes to the stroke, that cause more top spin. Good luck.

SystemicAnomaly · Jul 17, 2016

donnybrook said:
Once a week for a month? That's 4 times? A little impatient are we? When my daughter switched it took her months playing 5 days a week to get comfortable. Give it some time man!

Really? When I switched from an Eastern to a SW, it took a matter of a couple of minutes to adjust to the new grip. Same thing from going from a conti grip to an Eastern BH grip for the serve. A number of my students made the adjustment almost as quickly for the FH or for the serve.

But then I already used 2 different grips for the BH (1-handed) -- conti for slice and Eastern BH for topspin. I also use a multitude of different grips for badminton. Did not take long at all to develop the muscle memory for the various grips.

But then some students find it difficult to make changes to their grip. Some take a little longer. Some take a lot longer. Some don't seem to be able to make a change at all -- or they just aren't committed enough to put in the necessary time to develop a new muscle memory.

Shroud · Jul 17, 2016

Brett said:
For 10-12 years I played with a flat forehand until I realized I need to stop and just make a full time switch to a semi-western grip.

Well it's been about 1 month and granted I have only been playing like once a week....but it still feel so uncomfortable and when I have been playing matches a large majority of the time I am making unforced errors due to just hitting the ball into the net. Funny because my main problem when I hit flat was way overhitting...now I have the opposite problem.

Other than imagining a higher clearance way over the net...is there any good suggestions? I have tried doing this in matches and I am still having the issue. My opponent today said it doesn't seem like I am swinging fast enough and maybe not as much low to high.

Just want to really fix this issue. Any tips/suggestions would be helpful. It still feel so awkward hitting with this grip and I have no confidence in my shots at all.

Just hang in there....it takes time for such a radical change. best not to put yourself in a competitive situation unless you are OK with the eventual losses.

You may want to just try to hit lobs with that grip and see what happens. You may be surprised and at least avoid the net.

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

SystemicAnomaly said:
Really? When I switched from an Eastern to a SW, it took a matter of a couple of minutes to adjust to the new grip. Same thing from going from a conti grip to an Eastern BH grip for the serve. A number of my students made the adjustment almost as quickly for the FH or for the serve.

But then I already used 2 different grips for the BH (1-handed) -- conti for slice and Eastern BH for topspin. I also use a multitude of different grips for badminton. Did not take long at all to develop the muscle memory for the various grips.

But then some students find it difficult to make changes to their grip. Some take a little longer. Some take a lot longer. Some don't seem to be able to make a change at all -- or they just aren't committed enough to put in the necessary time to develop a new muscle memory.

Minutes to switch grips? The stuff you read in this board never disappoints.....

SystemicAnomaly · Jul 18, 2016

PittsburghDad said:
Minutes to switch grips? The stuff you read in this board never disappoints.....

I am dead serious about that. I am certainly not the only one who can do this. You see this a lot with players who often come up with creative (unpracticed) shots in the spur of the moment. I am something of a quasi-natural athletes in some respects. I'm sure that many true "natural" athletes are capable of adjusting/adapting this quickly.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

PittsburghDad said:
Minutes to switch grips? The stuff you read in this board never disappoints.....

That's about what it took me, too. Same when I dabbled with a full Western. Shanked a couple, found the range, then could hit it. Discarded it after a week as, "less suitable to my game," but wasn't a problem to use. Changed from an Eastern to a Southwestern between sets, once upon a time, and kept it that way ever since.

A lot of this has to do with an individual's playing level, which will necessarily tie pretty directly into how good they are at adapting to kinesthetic feedback on the tennis court.

Chotobaka · Jul 18, 2016

Brett said:
For 10-12 years I played with a flat forehand until I realized I need to stop and just make a full time switch to a semi-western grip.

Well it's been about 1 month and granted I have only been playing like once a week....but it still feel so uncomfortable and when I have been playing matches a large majority of the time I am making unforced errors due to just hitting the ball into the net. Funny because my main problem when I hit flat was way overhitting...now I have the opposite problem.

Other than imagining a higher clearance way over the net...is there any good suggestions? I have tried doing this in matches and I am still having the issue. My opponent today said it doesn't seem like I am swinging fast enough and maybe not as much low to high.

Just want to really fix this issue. Any tips/suggestions would be helpful. It still feel so awkward hitting with this grip and I have no confidence in my shots at all.

Your opponent is absolutely correct. As you move to a more western grip, and a progressively closed face on contact, speed needs in increase commensurately. If you are swinging at the same speed, and/or with the same swing path, you are going to have problems. Dumping the ball into the net immediately after going more western in your grip is a classic symptom of not enough racquet head speed. Either develop more speed or come to terms with your limitations and adjust accordingly.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

dgold44 said:
IF something works ok in life- you dont change it

Unless, of course, your goal is to be better than ok at something.

Deleted member 23235 · Jul 18, 2016

SystemicAnomaly said:
Really? When I switched from an Eastern to a SW, it took a matter of a couple of minutes to adjust to the new grip. Same thing from going from a conti grip to an Eastern BH grip for the serve. A number of my students made the adjustment almost as quickly for the FH or for the serve.

But then I already used 2 different grips for the BH (1-handed) -- conti for slice and Eastern BH for topspin. I also use a multitude of different grips for badminton. Did not take long at all to develop the muscle memory for the various grips.

But then some students find it difficult to make changes to their grip. Some take a little longer. Some take a lot longer. Some don't seem to be able to make a change at all -- or they just aren't committed enough to put in the necessary time to develop a new muscle memory.

I'm definitely not gifted then

took me a year (6-10hr/week) to feel comfortable going for shots in the heat of battle (ie. think on the run full aggressive swing fh), when I switched from hawaiian to semiwestern.
After playing 4.5 for a few years, I actually went back to playing 3.5's and 4.0's (and losing). was definitely not consistent enough to play with 4.5's
my bh did get better, as I was often running my fh in the beginning

Yes, on the wall, no pressure, I could hit semi western immediately, even consistently, a few minutes into the change.
Somethings I had to adjust:
* finding the grip
* contact point a bit further back
* hitting balls at all heights (waist height fed balls were no problem after an hour or so

Probably the hardest parts were finding the grip, and breaking a swing pattern i had practiced for decades... i had a huge tendency to revert back to my old grip and swing pattern (unless I was actively thinking about it... but sometimes I don't have the time to think during a grip change).

finding the new grip on hard returns was the hardest because my hand naturally went back to it's old familiar contact points (had to switch to using a wonder wedge - grip modifier), to change the feel of when I was using old vs. new grip.

IMO, making grip chagnes to between 2 dissimilar strokes (eg. conti/slice to ebh/topspin), is way easier, than making a slight grip change between 2 very similar strokes (eg. conti/flat to sw/top, or hawaiian/top to sw/top)... because there are no neural pathways (between dissimilar strokes) that need to be regrooved (ie. creating new pathways independently). Kinda like the difference between riding your bicycle parallel vs. perpendicular to railroad crossing vs. if you want to go parallel, there's a tendency to fall into the "old groove".

my $0.02.

Deleted member 23235 · Jul 18, 2016

Chotobaka said:
Your opponent is absolutely correct. As you move to a more western grip, and a progressively closed face on contact, speed needs in increase commensurately. If you are swinging at the same speed, and/or with the same swing path, you are going to have problems. Dumping the ball into the net immediately after going more western in your grip is a classic symptom of not enough racquet head speed. Either develop more speed or come to terms with your limitations and adjust accordingly.

My first thought was not a speed issue, it's a swing plane issue..
In continental grip, tendency is to swing flatter (i wouldn't be surprised if OP even swung with a slightly open racquet face with conti grip)... heck i see alot of students with 2hbh that insist they are hitting topspin, but in fact hit underspin with 2hbh! largely because they hit a conti left hand and don't push the top of the racquet slightly closed because it's uncomfortable on the wrist)
in SW grip, because head is closed slightly (pointing at the net), the same flat swing plane goes right into the net.

Speed plays some role, but not as much as swing plane, IMO.

Brett · Jul 18, 2016

Thank you all very much! All your comments are very helpful. Yes I am switching from basically hitting for 10 years with a continental but kind of close to a eastern forehand grip (in between both bevels) on my forehands. I think all of you are right and I need to work on a fast swing speed and the swing plane...focusing on going more low to high with a brush method. I think I tend to go away from that because I didn't have to do that on my flat forehands. It led to bad habits.

Is there an easy way to find and keep your semi-western grip? Sometimes I look down and my base knuckle has shifted down to the 3 bevel which is more of a eastern forehand.

Does the fact that I am playing with an 18 x 20 racquet make a difference? I figure I would still have these issues on a 16 x 19 too.

Say Chi Sin Lo · Jul 18, 2016

Brett said:
Thank you all very much! All your comments are very helpful. Yes I am switching from basically hitting for 10 years with a continental but kind of close to a eastern forehand grip (in between both bevels) on my forehands. I think all of you are right and I need to work on a fast swing speed and the swing plane...focusing on going more low to high with a brush method. I think I tend to go away from that because I didn't have to do that on my flat forehands. It led to bad habits.

Is there an easy way to find and keep your semi-western grip? Sometimes I look down and my base knuckle has shifted down to the 3 bevel which is more of a eastern forehand.

Does the fact that I am playing with an 18 x 20 racquet make a difference? I figure I would still have these issues on a 16 x 19 too.

No, if you swing doesn't let you brush up the ball, you can play with barbed wires in your racquet and you still wouldn't have the desired topspin. You can start talking about string patterns once you figured out the root of your problem, your swing.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

Brett said:
Does the fact that I am playing with an 18 x 20 racquet make a difference? I figure I would still have these issues on a 16 x 19 too.

Nah. Might make the difference, once you've got it grooved, between getting 2300 rpms and 2500, or an extra 6 inches of depth on an average stroke, give or take. But it's by no means the difference between a workable groundie and dumping it in the net on the regular.

Dartagnan64 · Jul 18, 2016

dgold44 said:
IF something works ok in life- you dont change it

If you aren't getting better, you're getting worse.

Everything advances and evolves, if you don't evolve with the changes, you are falling behind. Your attitude would have the OP playing with a wooden racquet and continental grip for the rest of his life.

OP needs to stick with his change, work on a more vertical racquet face at contact or a less low to high swing plane as it sounds like he's spinning the ball into the net. Could also be a lack of RHS as well, but without video its hard to be sure. And then practice a few times a week and shadow swing in between times. Changing things is a process. Took me a month of 3x/week play to get to SW from Eastern. Currently working on Eastern BH second serves and that's slowly coming along.

Changes take time. But are usually worth it in the end.

Brett · Jul 18, 2016

Dartagnan64 said:
If you aren't getting better, you're getting worse.

Everything advances and evolves, if you don't evolve with the changes, you are falling behind. Your attitude would have the OP playing with a wooden racquet and continental grip for the rest of his life.

OP needs to stick with his change, work on a more vertical racquet face at contact or a less low to high swing plane as it sounds like he's spinning the ball into the net. Could also be a lack of RHS as well, but without video its hard to be sure. And then practice a few times a week and shadow swing in between times. Changing things is a process. Took me a month of 3x/week play to get to SW from Eastern. Currently working on Eastern BH second serves and that's slowly coming along.

Changes take time. But are usually worth it in the end.

Thank you, I agree and I need to stick with this change. But one thing I am confused on...you said I need to do a less low to high swing plane? Everyone else seemed to imply that I need to do more of a low to high swing plane so just confused why you said that?

Thanks!!

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

SystemicAnomaly said:
I am dead serious about that. I am certainly not the only one who can do this. You see this a lot with players who often come up with creative (unpracticed) shots in the spur of the moment. I am something of a quasi-natural athletes in some respects. I'm sure that many true "natural" athletes are capable of adjusting/adapting this quickly.

Go on mate. Tell that someone who knows no better. Youre a quasi natural BS'er, not an athlete. Switch grips in minutes.....

Look, I'm sure you can hit a ball over the net from E to HWN. Anybody can. That's not a grip change broham. It's fooling around. You are not switching grips in minutes. Stop your nonsense.

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
That's about what it took me, too. Same when I dabbled with a full Western. Shanked a couple, found the range, then could hit it. Discarded it after a week as, "less suitable to my game," but wasn't a problem to use. Changed from an Eastern to a Southwestern between sets, once upon a time, and kept it that way ever since.

A lot of this has to do with an individual's playing level, which will necessarily tie pretty directly into how good they are at adapting to kinesthetic feedback on the tennis court.

Oh come on.....

heninfan99 · Jul 18, 2016

you can get great top spin with an eastern grip(if that's what you were using). You really don't have to change grip and waste more years.

SystemicAnomaly · Jul 18, 2016

PittsburghDad said:
Oh come on.....

Don't understand why are you taking issue here. Bad day at the office or with the kids?

PittsburghDad said:
Go on mate. Tell that someone who knows no better. Youre a quasi natural BS'er, not an athlete. Switch grips in minutes.....

Look, I'm sure you can hit a ball over the net from E to HWN. Anybody can. That's not a grip change broham. It's fooling around. You are not switching grips in minutes. Stop your nonsense.

Anybody can? Doesn't appear to be what the OP & some others are saying.

No need to get your tidy whities (knickers) in a twist. You've been around her long enough and have seen enough of my posts to know that I am not prone to hyperbole. Why do you believe this to be nonsense?

While some changes might be "fooling around", as you put it, many are done with real purpose. My preferred FH grip is an Eastern plus; I learned to hit with a SW grip to be able to demonstrate and teach it to students. As I started to develop shoulder issues (from an old volleyball injury), I adopted this SW grip for chest-high contact points but still use the Eastern+ for lower balls (most of my FHs).

I learned a 2nd service grip for serving for greater serve variety. Many elite and even high-level intermediate players do this. These added grip variations for the FH and serve were done to add to my repertoire. And using 2 grips for 1-handed BHs is nothing unusual either.

The ability to adopt/adapt grip variations in a relatively short time does not make me exceptional. As I indicated previously, quite a few of my students (sometimes with my guidance), have been able to do the same thing. A few of them were exceptional or "natural" athletes while others were merely above average like myself.

SystemicAnomaly · Jul 18, 2016

heninfan99 said:
you can get great top spin with an eastern grip(if that's what you were using). You really don't have to change grip and waste more years.

Agree with this sentiment. Or, as I suggested previously, the OP might also be better off with a very conservative grip change, like an Eastern+ or a very mild SW, rather than struggling so much with a major grip change.

Brett said:
... Does the fact that I am playing with an 18 x 20 racquet make a difference? I figure I would still have these issues on a 16 x 19 too.

The more open pattern (16x19) does have a little but more spin potential than the denser pattern. A thinner string or one that is textured (rather than smooth) might also produce a bit more spin. Poly strings have greater spin potential as well. Looser tensions with poly and gut strings appears to produce somewhat more spin while a looser tension with nylon might often produce a little less spin according to TWU:

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringmovement.php

However, the greatest increases in spin will often come from changes in stroke mechanics rather than string changes. Shifting a bit more toward Western-ish grips (like the Eastern+ or mild SW), can possibly help as well. Note that Sampras and Federer hit with decent topspin with conservative Eastern(ish) grips.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

PittsburghDad said:
Oh come on.....

This has been my experience with most athletes in most fields.

When trying to integrate something new, but not entirely different, it's pretty easy to go from 0 to 90% in a matter of a handful of attempts. If the feedback is positive, make the change. Now, the road from 90% to 100% takes time and practice, of course, but not too many amateur athletes were at 100% effectiveness with their previous efforts in the first place.

Maybe it would be different for a Bill Tilden disciple, hitting early century, closed, step-forward forehands. But anyone groomed on a Lendl style semi-open Eastern is already using the same essential kinetic chain to generate head speed. With that already in hand, it's just a matter of swing path and contact point for either a SW or a W.

zalive · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
Hit harder. If you maintain proper form, you almost literally can't hit the ball too hard, as more spin just brings it down and in with even more vengeance.

Funny, but even pro players obviously can hit 'too hard'. Obviously it's maintaining a proper form that isn't just that easy.

@OP: sounds just like a need to change a swing path. More closed grip requires a bit more vertical swing path than what you did with eastern grip, since you used to hit flat with it.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

zalive said:
Funny, but even pro players obviously can hit 'too hard'. Obviously it's maintaining a proper form that isn't just that easy.

@OP: sounds just like a need to change swing path. More closed grip requires a bit more vertical swing path than what you did with eastern grip, since you used to hit flat with it.

"Hit it too hard" is virtually never the reason a high level topspin drive goes long. It is, of course, possible to swing so hard your form is compromised, but that's why it's worth mentioning maintaining proper form.

That level of serial overswinging is certainly not the issue with somebody who routinely dumps the ball short of the net. For that person, it's worth making sure they understand that there's virtually infinite room for more acceleration before anything goes horribly wrong at the opposite end of the power spectrum.

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

SystemicAnomaly said:
Don't understand why are you taking issue here. Bad day at the office or with the kids?

Anybody can? Doesn't appear to be what the OP & some others are saying.

No need to get your tidy whities (knickers) in a twist. You've been around her long enough and have seen enough of my posts to know that I am not prone to hyperbole. Why do you believe this to be nonsense?

While some changes might be "fooling around", as you put it, many are done with real purpose. My preferred FH grip is an Eastern plus; I learned to hit with a SW grip to be able to demonstrate and teach it to students. As I started to develop shoulder issues (from an old volleyball injury), I adopted this SW grip for chest-high contact points but still use the Eastern+ for lower balls (most of my FHs).

I learned a 2nd service grip for serving for greater serve variety. Many elite and even high-level intermediate players do this. These added grip variations for the FH and serve were done to add to my repertoire. And using 2 grips for 1-handed BHs is nothing unusual either.

The ability to adopt/adapt grip variations in a relatively short time does not make me exceptional. As I indicated previously, quite a few of my students (sometimes with my guidance), have been able to do the same thing. A few of them were exceptional or "natural" athletes while others were merely above average like myself.

Ok. You can change your grip to SW "in minutes.". That's a very silly thing to say. But hey....it's a mb. Good luck to your students.

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
This has been my experience with most athletes in most fields.

When trying to integrate something new, but not entirely different, it's pretty easy to go from 0 to 90% in a matter of a handful of attempts. If the feedback is positive, make the change. Now, the road from 90% to 100% takes time and practice, of course, but not too many amateur athletes were at 100% effectiveness with their previous efforts in the first place.

Maybe it would be different for a Bill Tilden disciple, hitting early century, closed, step-forward forehands. But anyone groomed on a Lendl style semi-open Eastern is already using the same essential kinetic chain to generate head speed. With that already in hand, it's just a matter of swing path and contact point for either a SW or a W.

And then you wonder why tennis coaching is so dumb and overcooked in the US. Somewhere there is a poor naive parent or adult learner buying this drivel. I used to be one.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

What you get for trying to help people, I suppose. I assume everyone asking these things has a modicum of natural athletic ability. We've found two who don't, and can't comprehend those who do. Alas.

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

OP. Here's the thing. You CAN NOT change an ingrained grip quickly. No matter what pretend coaches with big wordy posts say. Thats nonsense.

I, or anyone else with a year playing can pick up a racket and in a couple strokes find a way to hit anything from Conti to HWN in the court. But don't mix that up with that "being your stroke.". It's not. You can't hit 50 straight CC FH's under pressure, you can't dictate a point, you can't play a decent match.

You have to break your swing down from take back to follow through, have a definite plan on the type of FH you'd like to build, and then spend hundreds of hours building that shot.

And nobody here can tell you what to do. Though I do firmly believe that in 2016 you can do it yourself. With a ball machine.

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
What you get for trying to help people, I suppose. I assume everyone asking these things has a modicum of natural athletic ability. We've found two who don't, and can't comprehend those who do. Alas.

You haven't a clue if you think he can change his grip in minutes in any sort of effective way. When you say silly things, people sometimes tell you.

zalive · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
"Hit it too hard" is virtually never the reason a high level topspin drive goes long. It is, of course, possible to swing so hard your form is compromised, but that's why it's worth mentioning maintaining proper form.

That level of serial overswinging is certainly not the issue with somebody who routinely dumps the ball short of the net. For that person, it's worth making sure they understand that there's virtually infinite room for more acceleration before anything goes horribly wrong at the opposite end of the power spectrum.

Yeah, but it's hardly the key for the OP. I suspect when he says 'I was hitting flat' that he doesn't mean something 'hitting less than 500 or 1000 rpm'. I suspect he means literally hitting balls with almost no rotation. I used to hit with eastern when I started tennis (self taught completely) and it's kind of natural with eastern, to hit flat. Swing path is then almost horizontal, with very little upward motion. So, after I switched to SW at the certain point I needed to correct the swing path as well. Which wouldn't be necessary if I used closed racquet's head with eastern to generate spin...but I didn't.

So correction of the swing path to more upwards was the key for me. As it wasn't as much about grip, it was mostly about change from flat hitting to hitting with spin. I suspect that OP is in similar situation, because of how he described it.

TupeloDanger said:
What you get for trying to help people, I suppose. I assume everyone asking these things has a modicum of natural athletic ability. We've found two who don't, and can't comprehend those who do. Alas.

Rec tennis is played as well by players with average athletic ability, also by some players with sub average athletic ability. Because it's fun nevertheless. Some players can easily figure out themselves what is needed to hit well and can self teach themselves, some need a bit coaching, or at least some good advices.

TupeloDanger · Jul 18, 2016

There. My ignore function now having received a workout, I can continue for the OP, who I assume genuinely wants to understand points that can help him out.

When a ball is hit with topspin, the drag along the surface of the ball, combined with the rapid forward rotation, creates a surplus of air pressure on the top-front quadrant of the ball. That's why a well struck topspin ball has that distinctive, dipping arc -- because air pressure is forcing it downward while it moves forward. Compared to a flat ball hit at the same pace, upon which only gravity is acting to bring it down, it will come down much closer in the court to its point of origin. A ball hit with infinite spin would require infinite linear velocity to overcome the air pressure buildup and move forward at all.

More appropriate here, a ball hit with more topspin than you're used to hitting with, will probably have similar (or less) forward velocity, but a noteable increase in that air pressure buildup. So it's not going to go nearly as far as you're used to seeing your FH go before it gets shoved downward. I.e., "dumped into the net."

If you hit with a correct swing path, the more racquet head speed you can generate, the more linear velocity you'll hit with, yes. But at the same time, you'll be imparting more and more spin, as well. In practical human terms, with a SW or W swing path, it is physically impossible to hit it so hard that the linear velocity overcomes the downward pressure. The harder you swing, the faster the ball will go -- but the more downward pressure will be exerted as well. That combo of factors is why it's entirely possible for high-level players to find a sweet spot that will allow them to hit 100 mph+ groundstrokes, yet still keep them in the court.

And of course, yes, it's possible for that to break down. Overzealous swinging can make you wind up with small deviations in swing path or face angle, and can send the ball long. An opponent can send you running, and your lunging attempt can compromise your swing, and send the ball long. Tiredness, lack of attention, or thinking about boobies when you ought to be focusing can break down your form, and send the ball long.

But, for as long as you can maintain correct form, it is virtually impossible for you to hit long on a modern, well struck SW or W groundie.

Which brings me back to my original point: if you're dumping it in the net, you need to swing harder. Don't swing harder wrong. And if you don't know how to swing harder right, look it up, and work on it. But linear velocity is the criminal here.

That and ignorance masquerading as bravado. But that's not the OP's problem at least.

mightyrick · Jul 18, 2016

Brett said:
For 10-12 years I played with a flat forehand until I realized I need to stop and just make a full time switch to a semi-western grip.

Well it's been about 1 month and granted I have only been playing like once a week....but it still feel so uncomfortable and when I have been playing matches a large majority of the time I am making unforced errors due to just hitting the ball into the net. Funny because my main problem when I hit flat was way overhitting...now I have the opposite problem.

Other than imagining a higher clearance way over the net...is there any good suggestions? I have tried doing this in matches and I am still having the issue. My opponent today said it doesn't seem like I am swinging fast enough and maybe not as much low to high.

Just want to really fix this issue. Any tips/suggestions would be helpful. It still feel so awkward hitting with this grip and I have no confidence in my shots at all.

Your opponent is correct. You aren't swinging fast enough.

The more extreme the grip, the bigger cuts at the ball you need to take. A lot of the linear force of your stroke is now angular. You need to absolutely hit the snot out of the ball to get a deep, interesting shot. At first, it will be difficult. You are going to shank the ball a lot. Lots of 50 foot high framed balls. You are going to become exhausted much faster. It takes more energy to hit with a more extreme (than continental or eastern) grip. Make sure you employ your core. Push off with your inside leg, rotate your core, shoulders, and let the arm follow.

It will take time and repetitions, but you'll get the hang of it. Take a towel with you because you are going to be absolutely drenched in sweat quickly while you learn it.

LeeD · Jul 18, 2016

Of course, for any change to work, you need more than FOUR total tennis days. When we refer to "about a month to acclimate the new grip", we're talking 12-15 hitting sessions, using the new grip EVERY forehand.
Anything worth changing, is worth the time needed to make the change.

Deleted member 23235 · Jul 18, 2016

Brett said:
Does the fact that I am playing with an 18 x 20 racquet make a difference? I figure I would still have these issues on a 16 x 19 too.

I play with an 18x20... should not be an issue.

an open swing pattern *might* allow you to swing a tiny bit flatter (i.e. tends to launch higher for me - eg Wilson steam 99s), but not so much where you'll be able to keep your old conti grip flat swing plane.

try hitting the new grip in mini tennis... a lot.

Deleted member 23235 · Jul 18, 2016

Brett said:
Is there an easy way to find and keep your semi-western grip? Sometimes I look down and my base knuckle has shifted down to the 3 bevel which is more of a eastern forehand.

I never found a. good way without modding my grip (which gave my hand a different feel when it reverted back to my old grip)

PittsburghDad · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
There. My ignore function now having received a workout, I can continue for the OP, who I assume genuinely wants to understand points that can help him out.

When a ball is hit with topspin, the drag along the surface of the ball, combined with the rapid forward rotation, creates a surplus of air pressure on the top-front quadrant of the ball. That's why a well struck topspin ball has that distinctive, dipping arc -- because air pressure is forcing it downward while it moves forward. Compared to a flat ball hit at the same pace, upon which only gravity is acting to bring it down, it will come down much closer in the court to its point of origin. A ball hit with infinite spin would require infinite linear velocity to overcome the air pressure buildup and move forward at all.

More appropriate here, a ball hit with more topspin than you're used to hitting with, will probably have similar (or less) forward velocity, but a noteable increase in that air pressure buildup. So it's not going to go nearly as far as you're used to seeing your FH go before it gets shoved downward. I.e., "dumped into the net."

If you hit with a correct swing path, the more racquet head speed you can generate, the more linear velocity you'll hit with, yes. But at the same time, you'll be imparting more and more spin, as well. In practical human terms, with a SW or W swing path, it is physically impossible to hit it so hard that the linear velocity overcomes the downward pressure. The harder you swing, the faster the ball will go -- but the more downward pressure will be exerted as well. That combo of factors is why it's entirely possible for high-level players to find a sweet spot that will allow them to hit 100 mph+ groundstrokes, yet still keep them in the court.

And of course, yes, it's possible for that to break down. Overzealous swinging can make you wind up with small deviations in swing path or face angle, and can send the ball long. An opponent can send you running, and your lunging attempt can compromise your swing, and send the ball long. Tiredness, lack of attention, or thinking about boobies when you ought to be focusing can break down your form, and send the ball long.

But, for as long as you can maintain correct form, it is virtually impossible for you to hit long on a modern, well struck SW or W groundie.

Which brings me back to my original point: if you're dumping it in the net, you need to swing harder. Don't swing harder wrong. And if you don't know how to swing harder right, look it up, and work on it. But linear velocity is the criminal here.

That and ignorance masquerading as bravado. But that's not the OP's problem at least.

Oh. My. Goodness.

Deleted member 23235 · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
"Hit it too hard" is virtually never the reason a high level topspin drive goes long. .

op, this quote just reminded of something I do with some students having issues with hitting into the net (or short),...

I tell them to find their grip (sw or eastern, just make sure the racquet face is vertical/closed), then ask them to hit 10 balls over the fence (yes, really exaggerate getting under and swinging low to high)...

often, presuming the grip is correct (face vertica or slightly closed) they end up hitting 2-3 perfect topspin forehands within a few swings. ie. what they thought was "exaggerated" (with conti) was often the right swing path.

Deleted member 23235 · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
There. My ignore function now having received a workout, I can continue for the OP, who I assume genuinely wants to understand points that can help him out.

When a ball is hit with topspin, the drag along the surface of the ball, combined with the rapid forward rotation, creates a surplus of air pressure on the top-front quadrant of the ball. That's why a well struck topspin ball has that distinctive, dipping arc -- because air pressure is forcing it downward while it moves forward. Compared to a flat ball hit at the same pace, upon which only gravity is acting to bring it down, it will come down much closer in the court to its point of origin. A ball hit with infinite spin would require infinite linear velocity to overcome the air pressure buildup and move forward at all.

More appropriate here, a ball hit with more topspin than you're used to hitting with, will probably have similar (or less) forward velocity, but a noteable increase in that air pressure buildup. So it's not going to go nearly as far as you're used to seeing your FH go before it gets shoved downward. I.e., "dumped into the net."

If you hit with a correct swing path, the more racquet head speed you can generate, the more linear velocity you'll hit with, yes. But at the same time, you'll be imparting more and more spin, as well. In practical human terms, with a SW or W swing path, it is physically impossible to hit it so hard that the linear velocity overcomes the downward pressure. The harder you swing, the faster the ball will go -- but the more downward pressure will be exerted as well. That combo of factors is why it's entirely possible for high-level players to find a sweet spot that will allow them to hit 100 mph+ groundstrokes, yet still keep them in the court.

And of course, yes, it's possible for that to break down. Overzealous swinging can make you wind up with small deviations in swing path or face angle, and can send the ball long. An opponent can send you running, and your lunging attempt can compromise your swing, and send the ball long. Tiredness, lack of attention, or thinking about boobies when you ought to be focusing can break down your form, and send the ball long.

But, for as long as you can maintain correct form, it is virtually impossible for you to hit long on a modern, well struck SW or W groundie.

Which brings me back to my original point: if you're dumping it in the net, you need to swing harder. Don't swing harder wrong. And if you don't know how to swing harder right, look it up, and work on it. But linear velocity is the criminal here.

That and ignorance masquerading as bravado. But that's not the OP's problem at least.

lol, I can hit a decent topspin sw forehand,.... but I still found that passage hard to follow, until I got to "boobies", but then the rest was hard to follow again

dgold44 · Jul 18, 2016

TupeloDanger said:
Unless, of course, your goal is to be better than ok at something.

No just ok works lol

dgold44 · Jul 18, 2016

I have low goals !!!! Lol

Fedinkum · Jul 18, 2016

You need to mentally adjust the launch angle to compensate the quicker dip by the additional top spin.

Brett · Jul 19, 2016

Thank you all very much for your comments. You are helping me out a lot.

So I just need to really work on my swing path being low to high...that's the brush up method right? I think I haven't been focusing as much on low to high.

zalive · Jul 19, 2016

Brett said:
Thank you all very much for your comments. You are helping me out a lot.

So I just need to really work on my swing path being low to high...that's the brush up method right? I think I haven't been focusing as much on low to high.

You just need to think of it as a package. You hit a little upwards but it's the grip that will correct the tilt of the racquet, so the end result is ball going slightly upwards with spin, catching its peak somewhere before or about when it clears the net. You start doing this and you will be pleased with results.

Switched to a topspin grip...hitting lots of unforced errors into the net

Semi-Pro

PittsburghDad

Guest

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Professional

Bionic Poster

Professional

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

PittsburghDad

Guest

Bionic Poster

Professional

Hall of Fame

Professional

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Semi-Pro

G.O.A.T.

Professional

G.O.A.T.

Semi-Pro

PittsburghDad

Guest

PittsburghDad

Guest

Talk Tennis Guru

Bionic Poster

Bionic Poster

Professional

Hall of Fame

Professional

PittsburghDad

Guest

PittsburghDad

Guest

Professional

PittsburghDad

Guest

PittsburghDad

Guest

Hall of Fame

Professional

Legend

Bionic Poster

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Deleted member 23235

Guest

PittsburghDad

Guest

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Deleted member 23235

Guest

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Similar threads