Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Yes, my strength is tennis history. Tennis history is your big weakness.
Your strength is defending Rosewall, a man whose obituary shall appear in news sources around the globe in the not too distant future...
Yes, my strength is tennis history. Tennis history is your big weakness.
Agreed 1000% with this post. There is no reason to take this things so personally. A person disagrees with you and he's your enemy? People disagree all the time. And as incredible as this may seen, Bobby can be wrong at times.I don't agree with his ranking list but you seem to be taking it personally. It's nothing to do with being your enemy or not. As you say there are great many players being underrated compared to Emerson yet the focus is almost exclusively on Rosewall...
It's the principle. If you're going to downplay Emerson's majors (as you should IMO) then you should speak fairly about Rosewall's majors.
Agreed 1000% with this post. There is no reason to take this things so personally. A person disagrees with you and he's your enemy? People disagree all the time. And as incredible as this may seen, Bobby can be wrong at times.
Quantum universe.And as incredible as this may seem, Bobby can be wrong at times.
Actually yesWas it your intention to agree with me 1000% percent?
I don't agree with his ranking list but you seem to be taking it personally. It's nothing to do with being your enemy or not. As you say there are great many players being underrated compared to Emerson yet the focus is almost exclusively on Rosewall...
It's the principle. If you're going to downplay Emerson's majors (as you should IMO) then you should speak fairly about Rosewall's majors.
NatF, The focus is on Rosewall because we can compare Emerson and Rosewall very good and see who the much better was. It's especially absurd that that poster (who is not a newcomer but a person who should know history) ranks a player with zero big majors higher than a player with 21 big majors. Don't you agree?
It has yet to do with my enemies because they not only hate and belittle Rosewall but also hate me. I don't refer to you though.
Bobby talks about enemies but honestly he disappoints me because I used to be under the impression he wanted to find and explain the truth about tennis history. Clearly we all know what his main goal is and he intends to keep pounding away until he hopes everyone believes him.Not about Rosewall.
Gino did the best he could with his top 10. There was no need to attack him. I could also say that someone is incorrect when they have a player who should not be considered the greatest called in this person's mind the greatest when I believe his record does not even come close to pointing toward it.gino is hardly an enemy of yours as far as I know.
And yes obviously Rosewall below Emerson is crazy, though I find the most pressing omission is Gonzalez no where near the top 10.
Gino did the best he could with his top 10. There was no need to attack him. I could also say that someone is incorrect when they have a player who should not be considered the greatest called in this person's mind the greatest when I believe his record does not even come close to pointing toward it.
All we can do here is inform. The poster can make his own decisions based on the information we give.
That's the thing. People aren't going to agree with others on every issue in tennis. At least you're very knowledgeable about the history and facts so you can explain your points to the poster you disagree with if you want.Yeah I mean I find it ridiculous seeing lists where Federer is #5 but I stay quiet mostly
gino is hardly an enemy of yours as far as I know.
And yes obviously Rosewall below Emerson is crazy, though I find the most pressing omission is Gonzalez no where near the top 10.
Yeah I mean I find it ridiculous seeing lists where Federer is #5 but I stay quiet mostly
NatF, I'm more tolerant than you: I don't find it ridiculous seeing lists where Rosewall is No. 5. It's within of reason just as Federer as No.5 is.
I've seen Laver, Borg, Gonzalez, Tilden and others out of the top ten and sometimes out of the top thirty. I think (again easier said then done) we have to realize people will have their own opinion. Frank Sedgman has Rosewall at number 13. Does it make it correct? Not necessarily but it is Sedgman's opinion. He also has Kramer at number one. Is that correct? Again not necessarily. It's just opinions.I don't think Federer at 5 is within reason tbh
I've seen Laver, Borg, Gonzalez, Tilden and others out of the top ten and sometimes out of the top thirty. I think (again easier said then done) we have to realize people will have their own opinion. Frank Sedgman has Rosewall at number 13. Does it make it correct? Not necessarily but it is Sedgman's opinion. He also has Kramer at number one. Is that correct? Again not necessarily. It's just opinions.
I believe by a point weighted system Laver was number one easily for 1970 yet by the opinions of the time Laver did not have the best year. Yet just about all experts and players did consider Laver to be the best player in 1970.
Alas, I would like to agree with you, but the more I see on here makes me skeptical.All we can do here is inform. The poster can make his own decisions based on the information we give.
I've seen Laver, Borg, Gonzalez, Tilden and others out of the top ten and sometimes out of the top thirty. I think (again easier said then done) we have to realize people will have their own opinion. Frank Sedgman has Rosewall at number 13. Does it make it correct? Not necessarily but it is Sedgman's opinion. He also has Kramer at number one. Is that correct? Again not necessarily. It's just opinions.
Bobby, we went over this before, Rosewall was sharp for that January series, and Laver split his best-of-five set matches with Rosewall in January and for 1963 as a whole.Dan, Your hint to prize money and stardom is senseless; and you know it in this context.
Ask Mr.Laver and he will assure you that he was much weaker in 1961 than in 1963. That's history...
And you do know that Rosewall did virtually not practice for the January, 1963 series.
The thing about Emerson is that I do wonder if he decided to turn pro around 1960 or so whether Emerson would have improved so much he would have be a top dominant player. I think it's very possible. It's not as if Emerson didn't beat Rosewall often when they played in the Open Era.I think a big problem is treating the "top 10" as if those ten are sacred beings and everyone below is a bit of a mug. Like if someone ranks Gonzalez at number 10 that's "fair enough", but if he was number 11 - "oh my god, not in the top 10? Absurd!"
I have to say, I think ranking Emerson above Rosewall is worse than ranking Pancho G. outside the top 10.
Your strength is defending Rosewall, a man whose obituary shall appear in news sources around the globe in the not too distant future...
The thing about Emerson is that I do wonder if he decided to turn pro around 1960 or so whether Emerson would have improved so much he would have be a top dominant player. I think it's very possible. It's not as if Emerson didn't beat Rosewall often when they played in the Open Era.
What would have happened if Emerson turned Pro early and Rosewall stayed in the amateurs?
Emerson was a very talented player and I believe he did have tremendous room for improvement.
People can have unreasonable opinions though. I can respect peoples right to an opinion without necessarily respecting their position - I was being a bit tongue and cheek about Federer.
Alas, I would like to agree with you, but the more I see on here makes me skeptical.
What I see mostly is persons proclaiming opinions, offering one-sided arguments bolstered by carefully selected statistics, and attacking anyone who disagrees. I seldom witness someone answering questions or being receptive to being informed. I never see anyone changing her/his mind.
How often do we see someone saying "I did not know that. Thanks for the information. I may have to reformulate my opinion"?
I think we are each separate monks on separate mountaintops, each believing that he or she has found the one great truth--and it is different from, better than, and contradicts your truth.
Then we just yell at each other across the spacious but empty, foggy, echoing valleys: "My truth is better than your truth. My facts are more complete than your facts. My GOAT is stronger than your GOAT."
Bobby talks about enemies but honestly he disappoints me because I used to be under the impression he wanted to find and explain the truth about tennis history. Clearly we all know what his main goal is and he intends to keep pounding away until he hopes everyone believes him.
Bobby is not my enemy but I do feel like he is a child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar. It bothers me that he does what he does when I feel he distorts information and sometimes even makes up information to achieve his goal. It truly saddens me!
This is why I often approach his posts with annoyance because I feel he has disappointed me again.
And this is done believe it or not because I want the best for that guy.
Bobby, we went over this before, Rosewall was sharp for that January series, and Laver split his best-of-five set matches with Rosewall in January and for 1963 as a whole.
Emmo was a force, and that was reflected in his earnings, as I said, probably more than Rosewall and Laver combined in the mid-sixties....live with it.
Gino did the best he could with his top 10. There was no need to attack him. I could also say that someone is incorrect when they have a player who should not be considered the greatest called in this person's mind the greatest when I believe his record does not even come close to pointing toward it.
All we can do here is inform. The poster can make his own decisions based on the information we give.
I was never under that impression. Yes, his agenda is transparent.
Maybe what he means is that you are his enemy.
Perhaps your expectations are too high.
There is a well established tradition on TW to personally attack, demean and belittle anyone who expresses an opinion not agreed with by the attacker.
I've seen Laver, Borg, Gonzalez, Tilden and others out of the top ten and sometimes out of the top thirty. I think (again easier said then done) we have to realize people will have their own opinion. Frank Sedgman has Rosewall at number 13. Does it make it correct? Not necessarily but it is Sedgman's opinion. He also has Kramer at number one. Is that correct? Again not necessarily. It's just opinions.
I believe by a point weighted system Laver was number one easily for 1970 yet by the opinions of the time Laver did not have the best year. Yet just about all experts and players did consider Laver to be the best player in 1970.
Well I used to know the guy before he was on this website. And yes perhaps my expectations are/were too high.I was never under that impression. Yes, his agenda is transparent.
Maybe what he means is that you are his enemy.
Perhaps your expectations are too high.
It's in his recent book copyright 2014. It's called Game Sedge and Match, the Frank Sedgman story: Making of a tennis dynasty.Can you tell me what year Sedgman expressed his opinions about Kramer and Rosewall? I clearly remember that Laver was considered the best player in 70', 71' and 72'. His losses to Rosewall at the WCT finals were considered big upsets.
* * *
How often do we see someone saying "I did not know that. Thanks for the information. I may have to reformulate my opinion"?
* * *
1. Fed
2. Laver
3. Nadal
4. Sampras
5. Djokovic
6. Agassi
7. Emerson
8. Borg
9. Lendl
10. Newcombe/Rosewall/Edberg/Becker/Fred Perry/Rene Lacoste/Connors/JohnnyMac/Wilander (7-8 slam territory) thoughts?
Pancho Gonzalez?
Pancho is a poor omission on my end. I should have put him between Agassi and Emerson @Limpinhitter ....
I stand by Roy even though you claim amateur slams aren't worth anything @BobbyOne ...
Here's a list of finalists he beat in those 12 majors (bold names own a singles major):
* * *
gino, I'm very disappointed by your stubborness. You are an ignoramus as you neglect all the discoveries of modern experts who finally ended that absurd counting majors and ignoring the important pro majors!
You still rank Emerson in your top ten even though he is not a top 20 player. As told, Borg has won 11 open era Grand Slam tournaments while Emerson has never won any and also no pro major. Open majors are more important than amateur majors as also pro majors mostly are.
NatF might be right that I should not count Rosewall's 4 amateur majors (or not count them as important as his other majors) but then Rosewall still has won 21 majors while Emerson has won 0 majors (ZERO majors). How the hell can you rank a player with zero majors ahead of a player with 21 majors and at No.7????
Emerson never beat a top three player! When he beat Laver, Rod was not a top three player. Laver was immature at that time. Laver improved significantly afterwards while Emerson never improved anymore.
How can you rank a player at place 7 who never was a top three player, not even in his best year, 1964??? Please explain that to your readers!
I have not claimed that amateur majors are nothing. I just have put them in perspective.
You are the only poster since years who gives Emerson a top ten place. Even some Rosewall haters like Limpinhitter rate Rosewall ahead of Emerson, as far as I know. Emmo was a second-class player if not a third class player.
Stolle was not really a great player. Roche and Ashe were far away from their top form when they lost to Emmo. They improved only in open era!
Get serious and real!
Stolle is not comparable with Murray. The latter has won two majors where all top players participated. When Stolle won, the best players (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez and Gimeno) were absent!
Emerson did not destroy Stolle consistently. In the 1966 US Championships he was destroyed totally by journeyman, Stolle...
You count: Emerson 12 GS tournaments, Borg 11 GS tournaments. Thus Emerson must be stronger than Borg. Absurd!!!
It's in his recent book copyright 2014. It's called Game Sedge and Match, the Frank Sedgman story: Making of a tennis dynasty.
NatF, Did not say that gino is my enemy. I referred to Limpin, Phoenix & Co.
Can you tell me what year Sedgman expressed his opinions about Kramer and Rosewall? I clearly remember that Laver was considered the best player in 70', 71' and 72'. His losses to Rosewall at the WCT finals were considered big upsets.
I have no enemies on an internet forum...
Well I used to know the guy before he was on this website. And yes perhaps my expectations are/were too high.
Just when you think you know somebody . . .
gino, I'm very disappointed by your stubborness. You are an ignoramus as you neglect all the discoveries of modern experts who finally ended that absurd counting majors and ignoring the important pro majors!
You still rank Emerson in your top ten even though he is not a top 20 player. As told, Borg has won 11 open era Grand Slam tournaments while Emerson has never won any and also no pro major. Open majors are more important than amateur majors as also pro majors mostly are.
NatF might be right that I should not count Rosewall's 4 amateur majors (or not count them as important as his other majors) but then Rosewall still has won 21 majors while Emerson has won 0 majors (ZERO majors). How the hell can you rank a player with zero majors ahead of a player with 21 majors and at No.7????
Emerson never beat a top three player! When he beat Laver, Rod was not a top three player. Laver was immature at that time. Laver improved significantly afterwards while Emerson never improved anymore.
How can you rank a player at place 7 who never was a top three player, not even in his best year, 1964??? Please explain that to your readers!
I have not claimed that amateur majors are nothing. I just have put them in perspective.
You are the only poster since years who gives Emerson a top ten place. Even some Rosewall haters like Limpinhitter rate Rosewall ahead of Emerson, as far as I know. Emmo was a second-class player if not a third class player.
Stolle was not really a great player. Roche and Ashe were far away from their top form when they lost to Emmo. They improved only in open era!
Get serious and real!
Stolle is not comparable with Murray. The latter has won two majors where all top players participated. When Stolle won, the best players (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez and Gimeno) were absent!
Emerson did not destroy Stolle consistently. In the 1966 US Championships he was destroyed totally by journeyman, Stolle...
You count: Emerson 12 GS tournaments, Borg 11 GS tournaments. Thus Emerson must be stronger than Borg. Absurd!!!
Just a quick note Bobby, Murray has won 3 majors now - he captured Wimbledon last month.
Bit quick to call gino an ignoramus too...
NatF, Did not say that gino is my enemy. I referred to Limpin, Phoenix & Co.
gino finally included Gonzalez but not Rosewall, Borg, Tilden.
Well, there is this by gino, for all the good it did him on TW:
Rosewall was sharp and looked great in his first several matches against Laver...he saw no need to spend many practice matches against Laver and help Laver prepare to beat Rosewall's game, of course.Dan, Rosewall was NOT sharp as he did not see any danger by Laver and therefore did not practice for the series.
Prize money does not correlate to strength of a player!
This statement I do not understand. It must be a strange subtlety of translation.At least I consider posters like you as enemies who are not able to discuss without unreasonable hate.
Don't worry about it. Just state your opinions and if people disagree they will hopefully give reasons why. You can take their reasons into account or not. I live in New York and people tend to be very straightforward here to say the least so I'm used to it. Your views are just as good as anyone else's.All I get is criticism, man! I actually considered someone giving me advice and get bashed for it! Bummer. I'd like to see @BobbyOne strike a few tennis balls and give him my constructive criticism without making it personal or offensive
You sound like one conceited fella. While you continue to pound away at my assertions you can hide behind the veil of this internet forum. I'll keep in light-hearted and back my claims with facts that demonstrated the Emmo's 10/12 major final wins were against QUALITY opponents. If you think Ashe, Laver, and Roche were not at the top of their games during those final runs then use the internet, cause they were peaking relative to their competitors. You can make this personal. I will not. I am proud of the player I am, the knowledge of the game I have developed, and the history of the game I have studied
Borg was on my original list. Always has been. Rosewall too. Read more carefully, please