In/Out Device

RVAtennisaddict · Oct 20, 2017

Like the racket sensors, this gives more information. There is a reason that most colleges are expected to have automated (not HAWKEYE) line calling in the next 5-10 years, and that they play lets on serves... because there is a lot of bad calling going on. Even if this is 2-3x worse than advertised (25mm x3= 75mm, it is accurate to within 3 inches. Given that the tennis lines are 50mm, for me this is a reasonable margin as long as it is unbiased and all parties agree to use. No system is perfect, and the most advanced system in the world that has been trained with top 100 pros for example, probably isn't as accurate with nadal's or sock's crazy spin. Do they protest that Hawkeye is not as good or accurate for them? No.

With regard to the stats. They are helpful, this is the year 2017. We are tracking more and more stats in all sports and using them to help identify where problems and strength really are. Do I truly believe my Zepp sensor estimated max serve speeds (135-139mph)? No, but it gives me a scale to compare against myself and something that I can work on. Just like the literal scale in my house, it is not as accurate as calibrated physician scale, but it close and it is consistent to itself so I can see how I am doing.

I am not going to change anyone's opinion on this, and hope it works reasonable well. Will it be perfect, no. Will it be good or ok? maybe? Will the next generation be much better- absolutely. But the newer "good systems" like playsight use far fewer cameras than Hawkeye does, and the costs/technology are changing exponentially.

I do wonder if Racket King et al only use land lines/flip phones.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

Boyd Clary said:
Even if this is 2-3x worse than advertised (25mm x3= 75mm, it is accurate to within 3 inches. Given that the tennis lines are 50mm, for me this is a reasonable margin

You've just shown that you don't know how to call lines. It's not the *entire* width of the line that's relevant, it's whether the ball touches *any* part of the line. No wonder you and other 3.0s/3.5s etc yearn for a line calling device so badly - you don't even understand the basic rules of tennis and the margins of error you're prepared to put up with are nothing short of ridiculous.

RVAtennisaddict · Oct 20, 2017

The point is that we are arguing about margins of error thinner than the width of the line... not that I don't understand the rules. It was a reference point, maybe I didn't make it clear.

Not sure why I am responding, so I will stop

ElMagoElGato · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
You've just shown that you don't know how to call lines. It's not the *entire* width of the line that's relevant, it's whether the ball touches *any* part of the line. No wonder you and other 3.0s/3.5s etc yearn for a line calling device so badly - you don't even understand the basic rules of tennis and the margins of error you're prepared to put up with are nothing short of ridiculous.

Are you serious? Did he say the ball should touch the entire line? Why do you make up something out of nowhere?

jm1980 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
It definitely doesn't have the highest accuracy percentage because even he admits that it produces errors due to different lighting conditions, people moving around the court in front of the camera in addition to its margin of error being 8-9 times worse than Hawk Eye.

As if human players don't produce errors due to different lighting conditions, people moving around the court, and have a margin of error 8-9 times worse than Hawk Eye in addition to being biased

kimguroo · Oct 20, 2017

go to court with tennis ball and measurement tape.
place the ball 1" outside of edge of line.
I've done it before and my reaction was wow. that's extremely noticeable. if I get those call for "in", I will be furious in real matches.
it can be used for fun with friends or social matches but not for real matches unless opponent is extremely nice person and interested in this device.
the best thing might be both players agree with margin of errors and agree to overrule questionable calls by the device then it can be used in real matches but there is a possibility that entire match might be about "line calls".

it's a good concept but not sure how this $200 device will handle in real tennis games.
Also very tough to produce products on schedules especially budget is tight. seems like it's one man show which makes more difficult to quality controls.
good thing is he said he will inspect every individual single device before the shipping so it's a positive thing. probably the first batch might be really small quantities so he can test all devices.

in my opinion, sensor technologies are dead at this point and this device might be the last device which will test tennis gadget market. if it fails, we won't see any sensor technology for a while.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

jm1980 said:
As if human players don't produce errors due to different lighting conditions, people moving around the court, and have a margin of error 8-9 times worse than Hawk Eye in addition to being biased

The rule is that you can't call it unless you are absolutely sure. Not pretty sure, not mostly sure, not possibly sure, not "I didn't really see it but I'm going to call it out anyway because that's what my clueless buddies do". The rule is that the opponent *always* gets the benefit of any doubt when it comes to the call. The bias and errors that you talk about it are from people who don't understand the rules or who are blatant cheaters - that occurs predominately at lower levels and in junior competition.

jm1980 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
The rule is that you can't call it unless you are absolutely sure. Not pretty sure, not mostly sure, not possibly sure, not "I didn't really see it but I'm going to call it out anyway because that's what my clueless buddies do". The rule is that the opponent *always* gets the benefit of any doubt when it comes to the call. The bias and errors that you talk about it are from people who don't understand the rules or who are blatant cheaters - that occurs predominately at lower levels and in junior competition.

If you don't see the value in a device like this, don't buy it. I don't know why you feel the need to berate people who are interested

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

jm1980 said:
If you don't see the value in a device like this, don't buy it. I don't know why you feel the need to berate people who are interested

I'm not berating anyone - I'm simply suggesting that their yearning for this device is probably to due to the fact that they (and the people they play with) don't know how to call lines properly.

beltsman · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
I'm not berating anyone - I'm simply suggesting that their yearning for this device is probably to due to the fact that they (and the people they play with) don't know how to call lines properly.

That's just stupid. More like we are interested because our opponents don't call lines properly.

jm1980 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
I'm not berating anyone - I'm simply suggesting that their yearning for this device is probably to due to the fact that they (and the people they play with) don't know how to call lines properly.

You'd think a device designed to call the lines automatically is targeted towards players who feel they or the players with whom they play have issues with line calls, no?

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

beltsman said:
That's just stupid. More like we are interested because our opponents don't call lines properly.

Your opponents probably say the same about you. Buying an unproven gadget like this with its high margin of error isn't going to help. It's bizarre that the 3.0, 3.5 and the other 'All the Gear and No Idea' brigade are rushing out for a device like this when their priorities should be on other things.

r2473 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
The rule is that you can't call it unless you are absolutely sure. Not pretty sure, not mostly sure, not possibly sure, not "I didn't really see it but I'm going to call it out anyway because that's what my clueless buddies do". The rule is that the opponent *always* gets the benefit of any doubt when it comes to the call.

No, you don't understand. The overarching "rule" in tennis or any competitive activity (from business, to daily commuting) is WIN. In a sense, nobody really cares how as the "ends justify the means" with most people and the winners stay while the loser go home.

The only time you give your opponent the benefit of the doubt is when the point really doesn't matter. But if the point has a material effect on who WINS, you can be sure what call your opponent is going to make in most cases.

racket king said:
The bias and errors that you talk about it are from people who don't understand the rules or who are blatant cheaters - that occurs predominately at lower levels and in junior competition.

Ya, right. What fairly tale land do you reside in? It happens at ALL levels.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

r2473 said:
No, you don't understand. The overarching "rule" in tennis or any competitive activity (from business, to daily commuting) is WIN.

Not by cheating.

r2473 said:
Ya, right. What fairly tale land do you reside in? It happens at ALL levels.

I've played at every level of tennis from HS, through College, 4.5/5.0 USTA and ITF. I can count on one hand the number of opponents that I would consider to be blatant cheaters.

jm1980 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Your opponents probably say the same about you. Buying an unproven gadget like this with its high margin of error isn't going to help. It's bizarre that the 3.0, 3.5 and the other 'All the Gear and No Idea' brigade are rushing out for a device like this when their priorities should be on other things.

For what it's worth I'm waiting for independent reviews of this thing before I sink any money into it, but I can see its appeal. And it's hilarious how you think there are no bad line calls at every level of the game

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

jm1980 said:
For what it's worth I'm waiting for independent reviews of this thing before I sink any money into it, but I can see its appeal. And it's hilarious how you think there are no bad line calls at every level of the game

Of course there are bad line calls. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the nonsense goes on at the lower levels of the game (frustrated wannabes with glass hearts) and in junior competition (blame the pushy 'win at all costs' parents who have spent a ton of money their kid).

jm1980 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Of course there are bad line calls. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the nonsense goes on at the lower levels of the game and in junior competition.

That's partially because the vast majority of players are juniors or at the lower levels of the game

In an area with 2000 3.0s and 100 5.0s you only need 5 bad line callers at 5.0 for it to be equivalent to 100 3.0s

r2473 · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Not by cheating.

I'd love to live in the world you live in

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

jm1980 said:
That's partially because the vast majority of players are juniors or at the lower levels of the game

Exactly. And they can't play or they can't call lines (or have been taught or pressured not to). And yet they think some sort of 3.5 mixed match that they're playing in takes on the significance of a Wimbledon final. It's bizarre.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

r2473 said:
I'd love to live in the world you live in

Improve your tennis instead of wasting your money on gadgets like and you might do one day.

Crisp · Oct 20, 2017

If you are behind the line the ball caneasily land out and you cannot see the space between the line and the ball if this device can,due to its side view that will be great. I have attended hundreds of tournaments over the years, junior, itf, open and cheating is rife as are simple mistakes. I'd like to see tech of this sort rolled out at every sanctioned tournament in Australia.

sathee46 · Oct 20, 2017

I assume no one has received the device yet. All this discussion without even knowing how the actual device performs?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

ElMagoElGato · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Not by cheating.

I've played at every level of tennis from HS, through College, 4.5/5.0 USTA and ITF. I can count on one hand the number of opponents that I would consider to be blatant cheaters.

I don't believe it's generally so at ITF level. Even official judges are making mistakes, sometimes seemingly with bias. But you don't see cheating much around you. It's good for you. I told you. Be happy. Like I said, this device is most useful for 3.0 to 3.5 players in casual matches, practices, and so on. Don't mix it up while your opinion is based on your small environment.

ElMagoElGato · Oct 20, 2017

sathee46 said:
I assume no one has received the device yet. All this discussion without even knowing how the actual device performs?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

You're right. And that's why this heats up a lot.

therecanbeonlyone · Oct 20, 2017

TW got to demo the prototype of the device at the beginning of 2017. From what they posted, they thought it did a pretty good job of calling lines. Give me the stats that go with it, and I'm happy. I'd be interested in comparing it to the Playsight court that they play on.

pnw_hardcourt · Oct 20, 2017

I don't think the desire to use a device like this all that correlated to skill level, for me I have a strong interest in technology and data. I tried the other racquet sensors and I won't defend them at all, they suck and I returned them for refunds. Doesn't mean this one will suck, but it might, we'll see.

It is the first device to give stats with court awareness. I think that justifies the gamble and does set it apart from the other sensors on the market.

Sports are becoming very data driven, why not want to be a part of that? It's $200 bucks not exactly a huge investment...

beltsman · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Your opponents probably say the same about you. Buying an unproven gadget like this with its high margin of error isn't going to help. It's bizarre that the 3.0, 3.5 and the other 'All the Gear and No Idea' brigade are rushing out for a device like this when their priorities should be on other things.

I know my priorities far better than you and I also don't talk down to people.

AllCourtHeathen · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Improve your tennis instead of wasting your money on gadgets like and you might do one day.

What's going on here? You worried this gadget's gonna catch you out or sumfing?

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

beltsman said:
I know my priorities far better than you and I also don't talk down to people.

If you consider this device a priority that's probably why you're stuck at the level that you are.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
What's going on here? You worried this gadget's gonna catch you out or sumfing?

Not at all. Just telling these 3.0s and 3.5s that they're wasting their time if think that this gadget is going to take them to the next level.

beltsman · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
If you consider this device a priority that's probably why you're stuck at the level that you are.

Lol you know nothing about me. Just bring your condescending elsewhere.

RVAtennisaddict · Oct 20, 2017

I've played at every level of tennis from HS, through College, 4.5/5.0 USTA and ITF. I can count on one hand the number of opponents that I would consider to be blatant cheaters.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Cheating is so rampant at the college level that why they don't play lets on the serve in college tennis. Most colleges are actively looking into playsight or other such systems for player analysis (training, like the USTA Junior Training center has) and to decrease need for refs/decrease cheating.

And what about the pros, they have the best eyes and skills in the world. But the pros have both linesmen and Hawkeye (except RG because it doesn't work there?) - because they never missed a call- I mean cheat (by your definition).

I also haven't seen significant posting that this would improve their game, make us better, etc. The stats would be interesting and perhaps would give some guidance on what to work on and reference point to other players using the same system. So I now confused why RacketKing is attacking people interested in this and our tennis play?

I don't know if the device will work, but if it works 1/2 as well as advertised it would take a lot of the stress out of rec tennis. I am not making the hard/close calls, the machine is. For the record, I am constantly being told I am way to nice, because I never call it out if it is close... I just play it. But I know I leave a lot points on the table.

As for RacketKing- I would like to know where you live and play, it sounds real nice.

ElMagoElGato · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
If you consider this device a priority that's probably why you're stuck at the level that you are.

Have ever thought of why you were stuck at your level? Do you think playing at ITF is such an achievement?

ElMagoElGato · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Not at all. Just telling these 3.0s and 3.5s that they're wasting their time if think that this gadget is going to take them to the next level.

Do you keep spreading insults this way?

AllCourtHeathen · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Not at all. Just telling these 3.0s and 3.5s that they're wasting their time if think that this gadget is going to take them to the next level.

LOL strawman. who on earth would think a line calling gadget would improve their technique. Haven't seen anyone even remotely suggest that anyway. Its a potentially cheap way to eliminate cheating and also create a level playing field as its AI and impartial. What's not to like?

if anything its a bit weird verging upon creepy watching how aggressively you're demanding no one try or use this.

you're not a babolat rep or anything by any chance?

Tennis_Monk · Oct 20, 2017

1. So what if some people bought into sales pitch?. It's their money and they are entitled to buy what they like

2. The rating of a player is not relevant. It up to each to decide what they want to do with their game. having Played in a slightly higher nrtp rating doesn't mean anything.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

ElMagoElGato said:
Do you keep spreading insults this way?

Its not an insult. I just don't think it's going to benefit them in the way that they think its going to benefit them.

AllCourtHeathen said:
LOL strawman. who on earth would think a line calling gadget would improve their technique. Haven't seen anyone even remotely suggest that anyway. Its a potentially cheap way to eliminate cheating and also create a level playing field as its AI and impartial. What's not to like?

if anything its a bit weird verging upon creepy watching how aggressively you're demanding no one try or use this.

you're not a babolat rep or anything by any chance?

They're free to buy as many as they want - its not my money they're spending.

AllCourtHeathen · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Hurr Durr. hurrdur. Matt Damon. I'm the Charlie Zelenoff of TTW

Need I go on?

LOL!!! Wtf does anyone's tennis ranking have to do with anything related to this device or anything like it, or their freedom to buy it or have an opinion on it?

That's enough internet for today i think for me, might go picket Teds Cameras and demand no one buy any new lenses.

racket king · Oct 20, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
LOL!!! Wtf does anyone's tennis ranking have to do with anything related to this device or anything like it, or their freedom to buy it or have an opinion on it?

Like I've said already, they're free to buy whatever they want. As for opinions this thread is all about opinions, the most recent of which involves a discussion about its accuracy or otherwise.

Why are levels important? Because it's typically newer players who are at the 2.5, 3.0 etc level and buy these sort of devices thinking that they're going to somehow take them to the next level.

onehandbh · Oct 20, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
LOL strawman. who on earth would think a line calling gadget would improve their technique.

The more interesting question is whether this gadget will improve line calling.

Remains to be seen.

newpball · Oct 20, 2017

Racet King apologize and behave!

Tennis_Monk · Oct 20, 2017

racket king said:
Why are levels important? Because it's typically newer players who are at the 2.5, 3.0 etc level and buy these sort of devices thinking that they're going to somehow take them to the next level.

Is there an appropriate level to buy this device?

loosegroove · Oct 20, 2017

I can't wait to get this thing! With it by my side I'm probably going to jump 1 or 2 NTRP levels within a month or so....said no one in this thread.

Subaruvich · Oct 21, 2017

The companion app is now available for download.

Tennis_Monk · Oct 21, 2017

Here’s the support/help page

http://support.inout.tennis/software-ui

So far it looks like October release has line calling for singles and recording of the matches. Stats and etc will be in future releases.

This dampens my enthusiasm slightly as I was looking for at least some basic stats stuff to begin with. This may have to wait a bit

Crisp · Oct 21, 2017

I'm one of the buyers on this. Not a 3.5 level.... Not that it matters. I buy tech I think will help either myself or my players.... Have never bought babolat pop or Zepp or the like as I couldn't see it working. I did have a babolat play as it was part of my sponsorship package at the time. I have an ace attack ball machine. Normatec recovery legs. Marc pro pain management device. IPad for video analysis. Indoor court. Clay court. All of which I bought early because I thought they had value to either myself or my players... I believe this will too and is much cheaper then most of the other things listed above.

whorng · Oct 21, 2017

If lighting, players, and other factors affect the accuracy of this machine it cannot be consistently accurate/inaccurate...
And considering it has a generous margin of error I do not see this being used in serious matches.
So far it looks like a gadget for recreational use only when lines calls are in question. And probably indoors where there are less variables.

I'm sure some of these have been asked already, but:
Can it handle being in the sun for hours?
Seems to be made of plastics with a rubber sleeve.
Will the plastic melt/warp, will the rubber degrade and become brittle?
Can the camera components take the heat?
Car dash cams are notorious for crapping out in the heat. The camera gets foggy overtime, etc. However cars are a much hotter environment.
Hopefully it can take hits from fast tennis balls.
Looking forward to the reviews them the guinea pigs.

As an outsider that just read the recent comments it is clear racket king is making stuff up and insulting anybody that doesn't agree with their thoughts. Although he claims they are not insults... when obviously they are.
It's not possible to have a discussion with keyboard warriors. Just leave him alone guys.

ElMagoElGato · Oct 21, 2017

Tennis_Monk said:
Here’s the support/help page

http://support.inout.tennis/software-ui

So far it looks like October release has line calling for singles and recording of the matches. Stats and etc will be in future releases.

This dampens my enthusiasm slightly as I was looking for at least some basic stats stuff to begin with. This may have to wait a bit

You're right. It's very simple now. But I guess we need to start with the basic quality to track the ball. Once it proves to be OK, software can handle many things on top of it.

Maximus XXIV · Oct 21, 2017

racket king said:
Your opponents probably say the same about you. Buying an unproven gadget like this with its high margin of error isn't going to help. It's bizarre that the 3.0, 3.5 and the other 'All the Gear and No Idea' brigade are rushing out for a device like this when their priorities should be on other things.

And it will become prove or unproven. Why can't people combine hobbies with their discretionary income for their enjoyment? No one likes angry retro grouches that insist on being condescending to anyone with a different view point. I will let you decide who those people are.

Maximus XXIV · Oct 21, 2017

Something I think no one mentioned; just having video of your play will be beneficial from a feed back perspective.

In/Out Device

Professional

Banned

Professional

Semi-Pro

Talk Tennis Guru

Legend

Banned

Talk Tennis Guru

Banned

G.O.A.T.

Talk Tennis Guru

Banned

G.O.A.T.

Banned

Talk Tennis Guru

Banned

Talk Tennis Guru

G.O.A.T.

Banned

Banned

Professional

New User

Semi-Pro

Semi-Pro

Semi-Pro

Rookie

G.O.A.T.

AllCourtHeathen

Guest

Banned

Banned

G.O.A.T.

Professional

Semi-Pro

Semi-Pro

AllCourtHeathen

Guest

Hall of Fame

Banned

AllCourtHeathen

Guest

Banned

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Professional

Rookie

Semi-Pro

Rookie

Rookie

Similar threads