One handed backhand, please comment!

Tennis-melike · May 21, 2018

Hey Guys - It's been a while since i last posted, I had injured my back and since then changed to a one-handed backhand.

Can you give me some comments as to what i'm doing well and what can i do better? -Technical Prep, unit turn, contact, follow through, etc... One thing i'd really like to incorporate is fluidity

StringSnapper · May 21, 2018

why are you standing near the service line wearing pants? i'd like to see some backhands hit from the back of the court. i suspect your stroke is missing power and by hitting from the baseline this will be exposed and force you to change your technique to hit with more power. i just want to see big violent cuts at the ball.

one piece of advice: always keep your contact point at the same height if you can. i.e. you shanked one because you didn't get low enough. i recommend contact at hip height, so you need to bend your knees and get your hips down low if its low, or jump up (or move back) if its high - or take on the rise.

is there a specific model of player you're modelling your bh on? wawrinka for instance uses his core more, and doesn't put his off hand back. if you want your bh to be a weapon, i suggest his method: violently rotate your chest to the net post, then violently stop it, letting the arm lag through to contact. let the torso drive the arm. right now it looks a bit like the arm and torso move as one unit

Tennis-melike · May 21, 2018

Yup, just getting over an injury and trying to ease back into - power isn't really a problem for me, but remaining fluid is within the stroke is. Good advice at keeping the same point of contact. Player wise, i've always like Tommy Haas and Phillip Khoeshriber. That being said i've never been a huge proponent of trying to mirror the strokes of others, we've all got our own physiology and kinetic links, but for the fundamentals it certainly is useful to see how the pros do it.

Chas Tennis · May 21, 2018

I point out differences between posters videos and videos of high level strokes. You should look at the videos yourself.

If you have back issues turning the upper body may be too stressful. See 'chest pressing on upper arm to start forward stroke'.

Chas Tennis said:
......................
1) The post below discusses the distinct method used by Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin to bring the racket down just before the forward stroke.

You are not doing this in the same way or with the same purpose - ISR - that the above players are.

Backhands at 0:34 & 1:47.

______________________________________________________________________________

2) Chest pressing upper arm to start forward stroke -

You seem to have the upper arm pressed by the chest and the line between your shoulders turns. ................(a sleeveless shirt shows the shoulders) Compare your technique to Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka from very similar camera angles and pick out the differences.

Watch Gasquet bring the racket down with the off hand. See also current posts on the one hand backhand.

Chas Tennis said:
Once your backhand is pretty good, as your is, the next step is comparing it to a high level backhand of your choice and identifying the finer differences. Kinovea is ideal for this purpose as it offers side by side video comparisons and the time scales can be made the same (time scale synchronization here in Version 8.25). If the camera views are the same the comparison can be very thorough for seeing the differences. Kinovea is free open source. High speed video contains a great deal of information that mostly goes unnoticed.

Quoted from another thread -

"This post from another thread shows a comparison and analysis of poster Mojo28's one hand backhand drive and Gasquet's from the start of the forward racket motion. Note the chest and upper arm of the high level backhand.

[ Note for new readers - It is necessary for this analysis to understand the defined joint motions of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm between the shoulder joint and elbow does not go anywhere, it just spins like a top around the upper arm's center line.]

Pictures of each frame of Mojo's video. The time scales are in milliseconds with "0" milliseconds being impact. -267 milliseconds is about 1/4 second before impact.

I point out differences between better high level strokes and the poster's strokes. A poster can select a high level stroke and copy it or use some other stroke model. Or, go with instruction or on their own without a model or instruction.

Mojo's ball is lower than Gasquet's. Compare similar ball heights for better analysis.

Frame at -267 ms. It looks as if at 267 milliseconds before impact the OP has turned his shoulders back to about the same angle as Gasquet has. Compare also shoulder turn angles at impact, at Frame -0 ms. The positions of the arms and rackets are different. Gasquet's racket has not come down and is still in front of his body. Is Mojo copying some other backhand stroke? Mojo has also done pronation to bring the racket down. Impression is that Mojo is doing his own thing. ? (To see angles more accurately, the cameras for both backhands need to view the players and courts from the same angle. Wear tight fitting clothes or a short sleeve shirt to better see the upper arm, elbow angle, etc.)

Frame at -233 ms. Mojo has brought his racket farther down. Gasquet's racket has gone up slightly. Mojo's elbow looks bent more and his upper arm (between the shoulder and elbow) has more downward rotation (ISR). Compare ISR angle to ISR angle as these frames progress.

Frame at -200 ms. Mojo's racket is still lowering and low. Gasquet's is just starting to lower.

Frame at -167 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down from the shoulder joint. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest.

Frame at -133 ms. Mojo's racket still lowering. Gasquet's now lowering with more rapid drop.

Frame at -100 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down at the chest. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest. Gasquet now appears to have started more upper body turn. I believe that to produce this early arm and racket acceleration that Gasquet is pressing hard on his upper arm with his chest powered by the forces of turning his upper body. If a credit card were between his chest and upper arm, would it be pressed tightly? How much upper arm pressing Mojo is doing this is not clear (due to the obscuring shirt and arm angle). But his upper body does not appear to be turning as rapidly.

Frame at -67 ms. The racket head speed developed by any rotation depends on the location of the axis of rotation and the distance out from that rotation axis. Look at the arm and racket angle and the distance out from the location of the rotation axis (guessed for now). It looks as if Mojo's arm angle is not favorable for racket head speed. Also, Mojo's racket is already much more rotated toward the ball trajectory. Gasquet's racket is >180° back from the ball's trajectory. Gasquet's upper arm is pressed to his chest as discussed.

Frame at -33 ms. Look at the racket to ball trajectory angle for Mojo, 45°? Look at the racket to trajectory angle for Gasquet still >180°. The total turns of Mojo's and Gasquet's upper bodies from Frame -267 ms seem somewhat similar, similar average speeds. The upper arm and racket have been used differently. Another motion - now look at the elbow bones and estimate the angular position of internal shoulder rotation, or axial rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. Compare ESR from -33 ms to -0 ms.

Frame at -0 ms closest to impact. The big differences from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms are the angular movement of Gasquet's racket and the much larger movement of his hand in the forward direction in comparison to Mojo. Also, Mojo's racket is open and Gasquet's is closed at impact. Possibly the ball height was a factor in how closed the racket was.? Now look at Gasquet's elbow bones and compare them to Frame -33 ms. Gasquet has done rapid external shoulder rotation (ESR) from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms. That has moved the racket up and added to the topspin that the upward hand path already would have produce without ESR. Because Gasquet brought down his racket earlier with a near straight arm, it caused rapid ISR and pre-stretched his ESR muscles, he is using those stretched muscles in this frame. (Search the Stretch Shorten Cycle).

Frame at +33ms after impact. Mojo's hand and racket go more forward. Gasquet's goes more forward and up. ESR has continued.

Frame at +67 ms. Comparison of the follow throughs.

Video.

Last edited: Mar 5, 2017"

Compare how Justine Henin brings the racket down at 1:10 with the off arm rotating the hitting arm at the shoulder = internal shoulder rotation (ISR). This stretches the muscles used for ESR and they are used for upward racket motion to impart top spin. You just bring down the racket. Wawrinka, Federer, Gasquet and others rotate the arm down rapidly using the off arm.

To do stop action on Youtube, stop the video and use the "." and "," keys.

(By the way this single frame Youtube function stopped working using my Firefox but since has started working again. I suspect it was Windows or Firefox updates. ?)

FiReFTW · May 21, 2018

You could fix a few things to maximize ur racquet head speed, currently ur getting very little easy power and ur not making ur job easier.

dct693 · May 21, 2018

The prep for the swing is very back-and-forth. You bring the racquet back and then forward using the same motion. If you look at really good OHBH's, the player will make a loop-type of motion using gravity to help build up racquet head speed. A bit more turn in your torso wouldn't hurt, but it's not bad.

Kevo · May 21, 2018

I would say it looks fine right now. Simple, not a lot of extraneous motion to it, and pretty smooth. I think you should keep working until your comfortable with baseline hitting and putting the machine on oscillate so you have to hit under a little bit of pressure. I'd like to see how it holds up while you're moving. That usually will bring out more obvious problems if there are any fundamental issues.

I think right now the only thing I'd fiddle with if I were coaching you is more trunk and shoulder initiation of the swing and a little less powering from the arm. However, given your injury situation, I'm not sure I'd recommend any additional twisting, but you'll know best when to work a little harder on trunk and shoulder rotation.

If you can hit that backhand down the line well under a little pressure it will already be a weapon the way you hit now. A lot of people have trouble on the one hander going down the line so they don't hit that shot very often.

ByeByePoly · May 21, 2018

Smooth as silk ... really nice repeatable stroke. I agree with @Kevo ... the real test is when moving. If it looks like that moving, ignore ttw tips.

Was that the voice in your head?

ChaelAZ · May 21, 2018

Tennis-melike said:
Can you give me some comments as to what i'm doing well and what can i do better?

Form is good overall to me. You just need a quicker, more explosive release to get more pop.

Chas Tennis · May 21, 2018

dct693 said:
The prep for the swing is very back-and-forth. You bring the racquet back and then forward using the same motion. If you look at really good OHBH's, the player will make a loop-type of motion using gravity to help build up racquet head speed. A bit more turn in your torso wouldn't hurt, but it's not bad.

Highest level backhands - From the side it looks like an L - short side racket comes down and long side is the forward motion. From behind the down motion looks like a semicircle plus hand drop, more or less. These word descriptions depend on the height of the incoming ball. Better to look at the stroke shape in videos than try to describe it in words. It is not a 2D loop. See Justine Henin slow motion video in post #4 and in the quoted post.

Gravity helps the downward motion of the racket (20% of force ?) but much larger forces are supplied by the off hand.

Venus Williams 2HBH looks pretty back then forth to me at first look from the side view.

Tennis-melike · May 21, 2018

Thanks for the commentary! Should I try to prep the racket in a more 'racket tip pointing to the sky' motion? Right now, it's more horizontal than vertical. Glad to hear im doing ok on the smoothness front. Also, how low is one supposed to stay throughout the stroke?

user92626 · May 21, 2018

OP,
Your bh stroke looks very nice and consistent. I'm sure in time you'll work on power. I like the fact that you set your feeding machine fast enough that you're constantly bouncing, moving. It looks like real tennis!

dennis · May 22, 2018

Looks good to me, except you're not trying - need to see some points

FiReFTW · May 22, 2018

Chas Tennis said:
Gravity helps the downward motion of the racket (20% of force ?) but much larger forces are supplied by the off hand.

The most important thing that most people fail to comprehend is to start the momentum with "letting the racquet drop" initially as you start the motion so it starts the drop and then adding to that momentum, instead of starting the whole momentum with ur muscles and force, for example if its a high ball you might just let the racquet go for a very short time and then swing forward, but its still important to start the momentum and adding to it then, so its a smooth motion and a smooth stroke, instead of forcing the whole swing from zero with ur force and muscles, its jerky then and a much tighter swing and you get less power with more effort. But the left hand is not completely loose, it still adds stability to the drop, if you completely let go and drop it its harder to time and too loose.

Its almost like a tennis serve ball toss, if you start the momentum by throwing the ball up the motion is jerky and tight and u need more force, but if you let the arm holding the ball drop and build momentum and then throw it up you need less force and its smooth and loose.

Chas Tennis · May 22, 2018

"...but its still important to start the momentum and adding to it then, so its a smooth motion and a smooth stroke, instead of forcing the whole swing from zero with ur force and muscles...."

Do you have any reference for that theory?

ByakuFubuki · May 22, 2018

Given your situation, I'll say it looks fine. I wouldn't overthink about it and just work on one thing at time, but here's a couple of thoughts.

1) As others have pointed, your motion is a little too linear. At some point between the initial drop and contact, the tip of your racquet's head should get lower than its handle. To fix this, keeping the off-hand on the throat a little longer (until shortly before contact, basically) helped me a lot.

2) That might be something you used to do on the two-hander as well, but on some (well, many) shots you're lifting the rear foot off the ground. That's basically dissipating energy which is supposed to get to the ball for no real use, so you might want to avoid it. Note that I'm not telling you not to rotate it, but just to keep it grounded while doing so.

Smoothness will come with time and use, there's not much a forum (thus, theory) can do about that.

Nellie · May 22, 2018

If you are aiming cross-court, open your feet more (in line with the intended target) - being too closed causes you sometimes over-rotate in the shoulders to hit crosscourt while you hips are pointed down the line..

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

ByakuFubuki said:
Given your situation, I'll say it looks fine. I wouldn't overthink about it and just work on one thing at time, but here's a couple of thoughts.

1) As others have pointed, your motion is a little too linear. At some point between the initial drop and contact, the tip of your racquet's head should get lower than its handle. To fix this, keeping the off-hand on the throat a little longer (until shortly before contact, basically) helped me a lot.

2) That might be something you used to do on the two-hander as well, but on some (well, many) shots you're lifting the rear foot off the ground. That's basically dissipating energy which is supposed to get to the ball for no real use, so you might want to avoid it. Note that I'm not telling you not to rotate it, but just to keep it grounded while doing so.

Smoothness will come with time and use, there's not much a forum (thus, theory) can do about that.

Hi Byaku ... just a FYI ... getting off back leg is normal/expected on the closed weight transfer 1hbh.

As far as racquet head below hand, it's often hard to see realtime without slow motion. I didn't look at much, but stroke at 00:09 the racquet head is lower than hand before contact. It's all a matter of degree. A flat drive might have little or no drop, but max ts will have a lot.

You are a tough critic if you don't think OP 1hbh is smooth ... I don't think I will show you mine.

Limpinhitter · May 22, 2018

Tennis-melike said:
Hey Guys - It's been a while since i last posted, I had injured my back and since then changed to a one-handed backhand.

Can you give me some comments as to what i'm doing well and what can i do better? -Technical Prep, unit turn, contact, follow through, etc... One thing i'd really like to incorporate is fluidity

ChaelAZ said:
Form is good overall to me. You just need a quicker, more explosive release to get more pop.

That is a very good looking 1hb. The one thing that I see from this video that can be improved is your use of upper body rotation in your forward swing. Your swing path should be generated primarily from UBR and secondarily from arm rotation (picture opening and closing a doorknob with a straight arm), and then hinging from the shoulder. Your swing path appears to be generated primarily by hinging from the shoulder.

The fix is simple. Notice that on most of your backhands, your upper body rotation stops while your chest is still facing the left side fence (and doesn't face the target until after you complete your swing and recover). Rather, your upper body should rotate continuously through contact until your chest faces the target, which you do a few times, but, not consistently. This will result in 2 benefits: (1) the use of more UBR will increase racquet head speed, power and spin, (more explosive release as described by Chael), and (2) UBR results in a much more repeatable and consistent swing path than hinging from the shoulder.

ByakuFubuki · May 22, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
Hi Byaku ... just a FYI ... getting off back leg is normal/expected on the closed weight transfer 1hbh.

As far as racquet head below hand, it's often hard to see realtime without slow motion. I didn't look at much, but stroke at 00:09 the racquet head is lower than hand before contact. It's all a matter of degree. A flat drive might have little or no drop, but max ts will have a lot.

You are a tough critic if you don't think OP 1hbh is smooth ... I don't think I will show you mine.

I don't think @Tennis-melike's Backhand isn't smooth (heck, I wish mine looked that good after 8 years of doing only that), but since he specified that he wanted to improve on that point of view, I preferred telling him that rather than "Oh, it's already plenty smooth, don't worry".

For what concerns lifting the back leg, I know it's normal (I do that a lot too on both Forehand and Backhand), but when I manage to keep a bit of contact between the tip of my foot and the ground results are generally better. Plus, both my coaches keep addressing that to me.

On racquet drop I must agree that it's not really easy to see, that angles can be deceiving and that it isn't all that important if you want to go flat, so thanks for correcting me there. Probably I should wait for a video where he hits from the baseline and see if he needs some net clearance (or for him to say he'd like to produce more topspin).

Then again, I think the Backhand looks really good, especially from someone who's recovering from a back injury and who comes from the two-hander which is a different animal. I tried to address what I could, but the main point was supposed to be "I wouldn't overthink it".

zalive · May 22, 2018

Really good looking stroke. For more power, butt cap should face the side in prep, not the net. Everything else you can keep, it's good.

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

.

ByakuFubuki said:
I don't think @Tennis-melike's Backhand isn't smooth (heck, I wish mine looked that good after 8 years of doing only that), but since he specified that he wanted to improve on that point of view, I preferred telling him that rather than "Oh, it's already plenty smooth, don't worry".

For what concerns lifting the back leg, I know it's normal (I do that a lot too on both Forehand and Backhand), but when I manage to keep a bit of contact between the tip of my foot and the ground results are generally better. Plus, both my coaches keep addressing that to me.

On racquet drop I must agree that it's not really easy to see, that angles can be deceiving and that it isn't all that important if you want to go flat, so thanks for correcting me there. Probably I should wait for a video where he hits from the baseline and see if he needs some net clearance (or for him to say he'd like to produce more topspin).

Then again, I think the Backhand looks really good, especially from someone who's recovering from a back injury and who comes from the two-hander which is a different animal. I tried to address what I could, but the main point was supposed to be "I wouldn't overthink it".

Two coaches ... I am the only ttw member without a coach. I feel neglected.

Got it ... you weren't arguing for back leg being load bearing, just maybe a balance thing. To me, it would just vary per shot. For example, maybe stepping up big on front leg on high balls might lead to back foot coming off ground, and others the back toe thing. I just checked my 1hbh video, and sometimes my toe is touching or bouncing along, and sometimes foot off the ground. I would have to hear your coaches explanation of always trying to avoid back foot coming up. I think on some 1hbh the rotation brings the back foot/leg around ... but not nearly as much as the 2hbh. We must rotate around front hip more on 2hbh ... never thought of that. I certainly have noticed I pivot rotate a lot around front foot with 2hbh ... and not so much with 1hbh.

I need your same signature ... love me some sarcasm.

Tennis-melike · May 22, 2018

I had a one handed backhand once upon a time, but found it to be a liability on return of serves during my matches, I've since gone back to the one hander as I just find it to be more free-flowing and easier on the body, particularly my back - this is of course just my personal experience and am not suggesting one stroke is better in any way than the other. Like I mentioned, power isn't really an issue for me but let me see if I can upload some samples of baseline shots with a little more bite to them. I'll try to emphasis topspin , I like the door turning analogy, likely a subtle movement with big rewards.

Regarding the chest position on follow through, is it advisable for it to be more (left) side fence facing on contact and then rotate naturally into the court? Or alternatively, should it all be part of a more fluid movement with the conscious thought to open into the court. Sorry if this is vague, I've just heard traditionally to stay relatively sideways i.e tommy haas, whereas a warinka seem to intentionally open up much more, perhaps its just a matter of personal preference? Or is this the natural evolution of the stroke?

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

Tennis-melike said:
I had a one handed backhand once upon a time, but found it to be a liability on return of serves during my matches, I've since gone back to the one hander as I just find it to be more free-flowing and easier on the body, particularly my back - this is of course just my personal experience and am not suggesting one stroke is better in any way than the other. Like I mentioned, power isn't really an issue for me but let me see if I can upload some samples of baseline shots with a little more bite to them. I'll try to emphasis topspin , I like the door turning analogy, likely a subtle movement with big rewards.

Regarding the chest position on follow through, is it advisable for it to be more (left) side fence facing on contact and then rotate naturally into the court? Or alternatively, should it all be part of a more fluid movement with the conscious thought to open into the court. Sorry if this is vague, I've just heard traditionally to stay relatively sideways i.e tommy haas, whereas a warinka seem to intentionally open up much more, perhaps its just a matter of personal preference? Or is this the natural evolution of the stroke?

"Regarding the chest position on follow through, is it advisable for it to be more (left) side fence facing on contact and then rotate naturally into the court? "

The more I watch pro strokes (fh, 1hbh, 2hbh) the more I see the shoulder uncoiling pause/stop ... at least briefly to pass the full momentum to the arm. Then, after follow through, momentum will cause further rotation. I read what my friend Limpin said ... rotate through contact. That's not what I see when I watch pro video. Ironically, it's exactly what I see in my fh and 1hbh ... shoulder turn through contact. I figure I lose pace by not passing on max to arms.

As far as position at contact, with 1hbh it seems to vary from sideline to short of left net post. I grabbed a couple dozen pro 2hbh pics at contact ... and they tend to be pretty much left fence post. I think with pro 1hbh, they contact usually isn't all the way to left net post. To me, contact point and how you got there as to be the main thing ... ball is gone after that.

Here is another thing ... and you kind of said it. We are all a bit different, consider our individual unit turn range of motion. If I can't turn as far as Fed, do I expect my contact positions to be the same? Probably not. The following is a related post I just made in another thread (pretty good 1hbh thread by the way).

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...or-comments-video.616671/page-9#post-12296692

I hit 1hbh for 40+ years, and have been working on 2hbh for last couple. I agree there is more rotational force on the back with the 2hbh, although I haven't had any issues from it even at my age. The flip side is this 5' 8" guy feels strong wirh both arms

and much more forgiving on the timing thing. I lived off of the 1hbh during tournament singles ... kept that. If I had a back issue, I would definitely hit the 1hbh ... flattish or slice. Maybe you can still use 2hbh for return of serve.

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

Tennis-melike said:
I had a one handed backhand once upon a time, but found it to be a liability on return of serves during my matches, I've since gone back to the one hander as I just find it to be more free-flowing and easier on the body, particularly my back - this is of course just my personal experience and am not suggesting one stroke is better in any way than the other. Like I mentioned, power isn't really an issue for me but let me see if I can upload some samples of baseline shots with a little more bite to them. I'll try to emphasis topspin , I like the door turning analogy, likely a subtle movement with big rewards.

Regarding the chest position on follow through, is it advisable for it to be more (left) side fence facing on contact and then rotate naturally into the court? Or alternatively, should it all be part of a more fluid movement with the conscious thought to open into the court. Sorry if this is vague, I've just heard traditionally to stay relatively sideways i.e tommy haas, whereas a warinka seem to intentionally open up much more, perhaps its just a matter of personal preference? Or is this the natural evolution of the stroke?

First part of this Fed video is a pretty good viewing angle to check shoulder uncoiling completion.

Pause at contact, and then start again and notice no continuing shoulder uncoiling.

Chas Tennis · May 22, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
First part of this Fed video is a pretty good viewing angle to check shoulder uncoiling completion.

Pause at contact, and then start again and notice no continuing shoulder uncoiling.

At the beginning is an excellent camera angle for observing whether Federer's chest presses on his upper arm and when. He does not press the chest to the upper arm as you can see space between his chest and upper arm.

Different chest-upper arm pressing is a characteristic of Wawrinka, Gasquet, Justine Henin and many other strong one hand backhands. That pressing initially accelerates the arm and racket. Later the shoulder joint is used and the upper arm separates.

Since Federer's backhand seems to have improved in the 2017 Australian Open vs Nadal, his technique is an interesting issue.

When your say "shoulder uncoiling" do you mean a shoulder joint motion or the motion of his upper body (as for a line between his two shoulders)?

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

Chas Tennis said:
At the beginning is an excellent camera angle for observing whether Federer's chest presses on his upper arm and when. He does not press the chest to the upper arm as you can see space between his chest and upper arm.

Different chest-upper arm pressing is a characteristic of Wawrinka, Gasquet, Justine Henin and many other strong one hand backhands. That pressing initially accelerates the arm and racket. Later the shoulder joint is used and the upper arm separates.

Since Federer's backhand seems to have improved in the 2017 Australian Open vs Nadal, his technique is an interesting issue.

When your say "shoulder uncoiling" do you mean a shoulder joint motion or the motion of his upper body (as for a line between his two shoulders)?

I mean the shoulder line. What I see in the Fed video is a common element in pro full ground strokes ... the shoulder line uncoiling plays out ... and the payload is passed on to the arm to complete to contact. With Fed's fh it's much more obvious ... the arm has a longer run to contact after shoulder uncoiling. I think our eye gets fooled because after stroke is over, you will see shoulder line start up again with more rotation.

I don't understand your upper arm against chest point.

Chas Tennis · May 22, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
I mean the shoulder line. What I see in the Fed video is a common element in pro full ground strokes ... the shoulder line uncoiling plays out ... and the payload is passed on to the arm to complete to contact. With Fed's fh it's much more obvious ... the arm has a longer run to contact after shoulder uncoiling. I think our eye gets fooled because after stroke is over, you will see shoulder line start up again with more rotation.

I don't understand your upper arm against chest point.

The backhand also can be two stage - as for Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin. But in the first backhands Federer is employing his shoulder muscles early and his upper body turn muscles less forcefully, so his upper arm separates from his chest early. That is why Federer's chest does not press on his upper arm. Don't use the shoulder muscles in the first part of the forward stroke, let the upper body motion accelerate the arm and racket. You feel it.

"..upper arm against chest point." -
Compare Federer's video to videos of Wawrinka, Gasquet, Justine Henin others looking at the arm pit area. Observe only one thing - the separation of the chest and upper arm. The camera angle has to be very good and there is some uncertainty of forces when the visible separation is small. Look also to see if the upper arm moves exactly with the line between the shoulders.

This long thread deals with the chest pressing arm issue also with bringing down the racket. By half way through the thread I understood what was going on - read Post #51 on.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Note - pressing with the chest on the upper arm can increase pace and may stress the arm especially for mishits. Consider Tennis Elbow risks. Stop immediately if there is a tendon injury like Tennis Elbow.

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

Chas Tennis said:
The backhand also can be two stage - as for Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin. But in the first backhands Federer is employing his shoulder muscles early and his upper body turn muscles less forcefully, so his upper arm separates from his chest early. That is why Federer's chest does not press on his upper arm. Don't use the shoulder muscles in the first part of the forward stroke, let the upper body motion accelerate the arm and racket. You feel it.

"..upper arm against chest point." -
Compare Federer's video to videos of Wawrinka, Gasquet, Justine Henin others looking at the arm pit area. Observe only one thing - the separation of the chest and upper arm. The camera angle has to be very good and there is some uncertainty of forces when the visible separation is small. Look also to see if the upper arm moves exactly with the line between the shoulders.

This long thread deals with the chest pressing arm issue also with bringing down the racket. By half way through the thread I understood what was going on - read Post #51 on.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Note - pressing with the chest on the upper arm can increase pace and may stress the arm especially for mishits. Consider Tennis Elbow risks. Stop immediately if there is a tendon injury like Tennis Elbow.

I read most of the thread through 50.

"Look also to see if the upper arm moves exactly with the line between the shoulders."

Not following this. Upper arm has to move with shoulder, it's attached. The arm and hand follow in line with shoulder on FHs, but obviously with 1hbh talking shoulder line/upper arm angle.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion we fire everything (all in) when the shoulder line starts uncoiling. The car going 0 to 60 ... we don't gradually press down on gas pedal.

Limpinhitter · May 22, 2018

Tennis-melike said:
I had a one handed backhand once upon a time, but found it to be a liability on return of serves during my matches, I've since gone back to the one hander as I just find it to be more free-flowing and easier on the body, particularly my back - this is of course just my personal experience and am not suggesting one stroke is better in any way than the other. Like I mentioned, power isn't really an issue for me but let me see if I can upload some samples of baseline shots with a little more bite to them. I'll try to emphasis topspin , I like the door turning analogy, likely a subtle movement with big rewards.

Regarding the chest position on follow through, is it advisable for it to be more (left) side fence facing on contact and then rotate naturally into the court? Or alternatively, should it all be part of a more fluid movement with the conscious thought to open into the court. Sorry if this is vague, I've just heard traditionally to stay relatively sideways i.e tommy haas, whereas a warinka seem to intentionally open up much more, perhaps its just a matter of personal preference? Or is this the natural evolution of the stroke?

Think of UBR on the 1hb as back to the target, chest to the target. I like Stefan Edberg’s 1hb as a model to emulate. He has nearly 180 degrees of UBR.

StringSnapper · May 22, 2018

Limpinhitter said:
Think of UBR on the 1hb as back to the target, chest to the target. I like Stefan Edberg’s 1hb as a model to emulate. He has nearly 180 degrees of UBR.

Its interesting, i think because of his conti grip he has such a steep swing path from low to high

I guess he does have a little bit of lag in there - but his arm is quite stiff it seems in follow through (probably gotta keepthat wrist stiff with the conti grip)

was his bh a weapon? can he hit blistering pace off this technique? i imagine it could be quite solid consistency wise

ByeByePoly · May 22, 2018

Limpinhitter said:
Think of UBR on the 1hb as back to the target, chest to the target. I like Stefan Edberg’s 1hb as a model to emulate. He has nearly 180 degrees of UBR.

That is one pretty stroke. I see the same the same basic elements:

1) shoulder line uncoiling ends right around contact ... at a minimum decelerated because it's work is done, and passes acceleration on to arm
2) at contact facing between sideline and left net post
3) shoulder turn pretty much ended by contact, but UB comes around more because his back (left) leg comes around as he rotates around front (right) hip.

To me, his back leg coming around that far looks a lot like closed stance 2hbhs.

The key is not having shoulder line rotation acceleration through contact ... the double pendulum analogy.

StringSnapper · May 22, 2018

Speaking of nice 1handers...

onehandbh · May 22, 2018

Chas Tennis said:
At the beginning is an excellent camera angle for observing whether Federer's chest presses on his upper arm and when. He does not press the chest to the upper arm as you can see space between his chest and upper arm.

Could it be that Fed is “pressing” but it looks like he is not?

For example, At “full press” it looks like my upper arm is not pressed against my chest bc my pec muscle gets in the way and just can’t squish in anymore.

I just have a regular size chest. Don’t have d-cup manb@@bs or anything like that.

Chas Tennis · May 23, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
I read most of the thread through 50.

"Look also to see if the upper arm moves exactly with the line between the shoulders."

Not following this. Upper arm has to move with shoulder, it's attached. The arm and hand follow in line with shoulder on FHs, but obviously with 1hbh talking shoulder line/upper arm angle.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion we fire everything (all in) when the shoulder line starts uncoiling. The car going 0 to 60 ... we don't gradually press down on gas pedal.

read post #51 to end.

Consider viewing from above as the line between the two shoulders turns. If the chest is pressed to the upper arm, the upper arm will move with the line between the shoulders. The upper arm may lower while in contact with the chest and be angled down. The shoulder muscles that would separate the upper arm are relaxed for the first part of the forward swing.

Imagine that you were squeezing a credit card between your upper arm and chest during acceleration, the credit card would be squeezed hard. For Federer the credit card would drop out. For Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin the credit card would be squeezed. See the videos.

Limpinhitter · May 23, 2018

StringSnapper said:
Its interesting, i think because of his conti grip he has such a steep swing path from low to high

I guess he does have a little bit of lag in there - but his arm is quite stiff it seems in follow through (probably gotta keepthat wrist stiff with the conti grip)

was his bh a weapon? can he hit blistering pace off this technique? i imagine it could be quite solid consistency wise

Edberg had one of the greatest 1hb of all time. He and Ivan Ljubicic helped Federer improve his bh so that it wasn’t such a deficit against Nadal.

BTW Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall both used Continental grips and both had 2 of the greatest 1hb’s of all time.

FiReFTW · May 23, 2018

Limpinhitter said:
BTW Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall both used Continental grips and both had 2 of the greatest 1hb’s of all time.

They both also played decades ago with wooden racquets.

Its not that you can't hit a good backhand with a continental grip, its that in today's game with such modern powerful racquets and strings and high bouncing heavy spin balls (and its going to get worse and worse), its not making your life easier, even with an eastern grip on the backhand, if a OHB has a weakness its returning serves, specially kick serves bouncing extremely high.

Unless you plan to play lower level tennis where there are no heavier spin shots and faster shots, a continental grip OHB has quite a few cons, because its just harder to hit certain shots, not to say if you play with it alot that you are not competent at it, if you play with anyhing long enough you can reach a high level with it, its just that if you aspire to play at like 4.5 or higher, in my opinion it makes sense to play with an eastern backhand grip.

Chas Tennis · May 23, 2018

onehandbh said:
Could it be that Fed is “pressing” but it looks like he is not?

For example, At “full press” it looks like my upper arm is not pressed against my chest bc my pec muscle gets in the way and just can’t squish in anymore.

I just have a regular size chest. Don’t have d-cup manb@@bs or anything like that.

Speculation - Federer might be using his shoulder muscles with extra force so that the upper arm pulls away but also the upper body turn is also causing arm and racket acceleration by moving the shoulder joint. ? Then less of the shoulder forces would be available to accelerate the arm and racket. Then also the upper body forces might be limited to allow the upper arm to pull off the chest. ? Use upper body turn first (it will be slower because of the extra body mass being accelerated) and then faster shoulder muscles to farther accelerate the arm and racket as the other mentioned players are doing.

When the chest is appears very close to the upper arm things are uncertain regarding forces. But if the upper arm is seen separated, there is no chest to upper arm force.

Demo - Take your arm and put it across your chest. It is in contact close to the armpit and then out farther on the upper arm separates away from the chest because of the squeezed tissue structure, the upper arm bone does not lye flat against the chest. This has to be accounted for in viewing videos. With short sleeve shirts it is often hard to see.

Second, in videos look for the upper arm to move with the line between the shoulders as viewed from above. The pressing locks them together.

You can feel the chest upper arm press when accelerating hard. Have your shoulder muscles relaxed.

The arm is often angled down when pressed by the chest. [A distance from the rotation axis is always needed to develop speed (see videos for angles)........]

I don't understand how the downward arm angle relates to ball height.

Limpinhitter · May 23, 2018

FiReFTW said:
They both also played decades ago with wooden racquets.

Its not that you can't hit a good backhand with a continental grip, its that in today's game with such modern powerful racquets and strings and high bouncing heavy spin balls (and its going to get worse and worse), its not making your life easier, even with an eastern grip on the backhand, if a OHB has a weakness its returning serves, specially kick serves bouncing extremely high.

Unless you plan to play lower level tennis where there are no heavier spin shots and faster shots, a continental grip OHB has quite a few cons, because its just harder to hit certain shots, not to say if you play with it alot that you are not competent at it, if you play with anyhing long enough you can reach a high level with it, its just that if you aspire to play at like 4.5 or higher, in my opinion it makes sense to play with an eastern backhand grip.

I played decades ago with wood racquets too. BTW, gut remains the most powerful string.

I disagree with some of your premises. In my view, an eastern bh grip is optimal for a topspin 1hb’s today and in eras past. My point was that it just so happens that two of the greatest 1hb’s of all time, including the most devastating 1hb ever seen, Laver’s, were played with Continental grips. If Laver played today, he would probably use an eastern grip on his topspin bh. Rosewall would still have the best 1hb today on grass using a Continental grip, in my view.

Further, If modern pros had competent slice backhands, they wouldn’t have to resort to extrmee, sub-optimal grips to hit balls above shoulder height.

FiReFTW · May 23, 2018

Limpinhitter said:
I played decades ago with wood racquets too. BTW, gut remains the most powerful string.

I disagree with some of your premises. In my view, an eastern bh grip is optimal for a topspin 1hb’s today and in eras past. My point was that it just so happens that two of the greatest 1hb’s of all time, including the most devastating 1hb ever seen, Laver’s, were played with Continental grips. If Laver played today, he would probably use an eastern grip on his topspin bh. Rosewall would still have the best 1hb today on grass using a Continental grip, in my view.

Further, If modern pros had competent slice backhands, they wouldn’t have to resort to extrmee, sub-optimal grips to hit balls above shoulder height.

You raise some interesting and valid points.

onehandbh · May 23, 2018

Chas Tennis said:
Speculation - Federer might be using his shoulder muscles with extra force so that the upper arm pulls away but also the upper body turn is also causing arm and racket acceleration by moving the shoulder joint. ? Then less of the shoulder forces would be available to accelerate the arm and racket. Then also the upper body forces might be limited to allow the upper arm to pull off the chest. ? Use upper body turn first (it will be slower because of the extra body mass being accelerated) and then faster shoulder muscles to farther accelerate the arm and racket as the other mentioned players are doing.

When the chest is appears very close to the upper arm things are uncertain regarding forces. But if the upper arm is seen separated, there is no chest to upper arm force.

Demo - Take your arm and put it across your chest. It is in contact close to the armpit and then out farther on the upper arm separates away from the chest because of the squeezed tissue structure, the upper arm bone does not lye flat against the chest. This has to be accounted for in viewing videos. With short sleeve shirts it is often hard to see.

Second, in videos look for the upper arm to move with the line between the shoulders as viewed from above. The pressing locks them together.

You can feel the chest upper arm press when accelerating hard. Have your shoulder muscles relaxed.

The arm is often angled down when pressed by the chest. [A distance from the rotation axis is always needed to develop speed (see videos for angles)........]

I don't understand how the downward arm angle relates to ball height.

On higher balls, the upper arm could be higher and then it wouldn’t appear to be as pressed to the chest.

Chas Tennis · May 23, 2018

onehandbh said:
On higher balls, the upper arm could be higher and then it wouldn’t appear to be as pressed to the chest.

Do you have a picture?

It looks pressed when the upper arm is near horizontal.

This is also for backhands where the player is not pressured and intends to hit a heavier paced backhand.

Also, in the long thread on the backhand a poster (Draggy?) was saying that it was not the chest pressing but the muscles on the back pulling. That is a very legitimate point. I can see the chest in contact with the upper arm in the videos mentioned (I can't see forces directly in videos in any case) and can feel chest upper arm pressure with my own backhand. So chest pressing on upper arm remains my view. Forces from the back muscles I can't see, unknown to me. ?

I have not observed forces directly. I have observed that there is an association between many top backhand players and the chest being in contact with the upper arm seen in videos.

Federer's backhand does not show the same in that excellent camera angle video clip and has been questionable for me in many other videos. His new 2017 backhand is very high performance also.

ByeByePoly · May 23, 2018

Limpin

Chas Tennis said:
read post #51 to end.

I will read the entire thread ... hopefully this afternoon.

This sounds a little like Curiosity's (and others) that you get a locked shoulder-upperarm assist on FHs if you ISR? before shoulder line uncoiling. I think pros do everything to squeeze out every tiny percent they can because the margins of winning and losing are thin. So let's say the chest-upperarm assist is also a thing.

From the way FHs and 1hbhs feel to me, it seems rather effortless to maintain my upperarm position in reference to shoulder as upper arm uncoiling is fired. I would think that effort is small compared to managing a 8lb arm, and low to high swings, etc. I don't see how a small effort to maintain upper arm position would have much effect on upper arm acceleration. The upper arm is attached, so point the arm anywhere you want, the upper arm has to come with the shoulder turn. The other thing is the consistent lesson in strokes seems to be tension kills speed ... arm to chest pressing sounds like tension.

I will go read entire thread and post back here.

Kevo · May 23, 2018

Limpinhitter said:
Edberg had one of the greatest 1hb of all time. He and Ivan Ljubicic helped Federer improve his bh so that it wasn’t such a deficit against Nadal.

BTW Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall both used Continental grips and both had 2 of the greatest 1hb’s of all time.

Why do you think Edberg isn't still using a continental on his backhand?

ByeByePoly · May 23, 2018

Kevo said:
Why do you think Edberg isn't still using a continental on his backhand?

You try keeping up with Fed in practice.

Kevo · May 23, 2018

BTW, he does use it on his forehand, and it looks a bit awkward. I just don't see any good reason for a continental on topspin ground strokes. Maybe it would be useful on grass, but Nadal has done really well at Wimbledon with his extreme spin, so I don't think we'll know in the modern game unless some player using that grip happens to appear and can compete well with it.

Kevo · May 23, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
You try keeping up with Fed in practice.

I would love to, but I doubt I'll ever get the opportunity.

Limpinhitter · May 23, 2018

Kevo said:
Why do you think Edberg isn't still using a continental on his backhand?

Edberg always used an eastern bh grip on his topsin bh.

Limpinhitter · May 23, 2018

Kevo said:
BTW, he does use it on his forehand, and it looks a bit awkward. I just don't see any good reason for a continental on topspin ground strokes. Maybe it would be useful on grass, but Nadal has done really well at Wimbledon with his extreme spin, so I don't think we'll know in the modern game unless some player using that grip happens to appear and can compete well with it.

Edberg hasn’t changed any of his grips. Why would he?

Nadal has never played a genuine big game player on grass or any other surface.

NuBas · May 23, 2018

Tennis-melike said:
Hey Guys - It's been a while since i last posted, I had injured my back and since then changed to a one-handed backhand.

Can you give me some comments as to what i'm doing well and what can i do better? -Technical Prep, unit turn, contact, follow through, etc... One thing i'd really like to incorporate is fluidity

Backhand looks great, until you post a video playing an opponent then having some struggles its great right now. If I were you, I would disregard all the over analysis of your stroke. It should natural and intuitive and that is what you are doing right now so don't start questioning your stroke and analyzing with so much detail.

One handed backhand, please comment!

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