Two handed backhand unit swing?

[Finster]

The unit turn is a well known concept as one of the core principles in proper two handed backhand technique. The arms and body turning together during the set phase of the stroke. But can we say the same about the forward swing? Since the hips and arms do not work separately during the swing phase for the two handed backhand, but work collectively and in concert, can we also apply the "unit" term to the swing phase of the two handed backhand, the "unit swing?"

 

[ZanderGoga]

If it helps to think of it that way, sure. The same is true for the forehand, serve, and most volleys. Tennis is mostly about putting the arms in position to let the body swing them at the ball.

 

[Finster]

If it helps to think of it that way, sure. The same is true for the forehand, serve, and most volleys. Tennis is mostly about putting the arms in position to let the body swing them at the ball.

I don't think the same applies to the forehand or the serve. In the forehand, the hips fire first, followed by the hitting arm in coordinated chain combination, the so called lag and snap. In the serve, the body uncoils first allowing the arm to act like the end of a whip. I was asking about the two handed backhand because the arms and hips appear more synchronous in the swing phase than the other strokes.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

For the elite 2-hander, I do not believe that they employ a "unit swing" on the fwd swing for most, if not all, of their strokes. There is a separation angle (between hips and upper torso) but it is usually less pronounced than we see on the Fh side. Take a close the image of Novak in post #4 above. His chest and his hips are oriented in different directions. So there is some separation and there is some tension stored in the core that will be released as he starts his forward swing.

Have recently looked at the 2HBHs of Agassi, Safin & Djoko and saw similar things there. The racket is usually pulled back at a higher level in a small or moderate loop. As the racket drops from the higher point (the back portion of the loop), you can sometimes see the hips already starting to open up. Quite often, these players will angle their front foot somewhat towards the net or net post. This foot orientation helps to start uncoiling of the hips just as the fwd swing starts (or is about to start).

So, not a unit fwd swing from what I have observed. Separation angle & firing of the hips might be more subtle for these 2-handed Bh implementation than for the Fh.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Note that Novak and other 2-handers will sometimes hit their Bh with a semi-open stance (especially on serve returns). In these cases, the hips are preset (partially) open. But the upper torso is still coiled during the UT. In this scenario, the hips do not need to fire first -- since they are already offset and there is already some energy stored in the core.

 

[Finster]

I see your point. But to state another way, do the arms not swing independently, but follows the hips and torso even though the hips and chest may not be perfectly synchronous? That is, the ball strike is driven more by the turning/uncoiling of the body than an actual swinging forward of the arms and racquet such that the arms stay in a relatively stable orientation to the body as the ball is struck. I think I see this in ATP players?

 

[WildVolley]

I see your point. But to state another way, do the arms not swing independently, but follows the hips and torso even though the hips and chest may not be perfectly synchronous? That is, the ball strike is driven more by the turning/uncoiling of the body than an actual swinging forward of the arms and racquet such that the arms stay in a relatively stable orientation to the body as the ball is struck. I think I see this in ATP players?

Not quite the way I'd describe it. The arms start behind the torso and accelerate past the torso when hit properly. So, for a right handed 2hbh. The takeback ends with the racquet head to the left of the left shoulder and the follow through finishes with the the racquet head to the right of the right shoulder in most cases.

This means that while turning the torso is important to generating power in most swings, the hardest hit shots will have the shoulders decelerating slightly into contact and the hands and arms going much faster than the torso at that point.

 

[Finster]

Interesting high speed analysis. But I don't think we mortals are able to manage our body parts to such fine degree. I would need a more "coarse" instruction for it to sink in.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Compare up to 5 frames of one of Djokovic's 2 hand backhands.

To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.
Always select the video using the alt key + left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing.
You can go full screen and come back down and the video does not start playing.

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

Pick one backhand.
View.
#1 - frame of impact.
#2 - frame before impact.
#3 - 2nd frame before impact.
#4 - 3rd " " "
#5 - 4th frame before impact.

Any other 5 frames can be compared. Frames could be sampled by more than one frame apart or variable frames apart. This looks like a good flexible way to observe each sub-motion of a tennis stroke. In this thread, we are interested in how the uppermost body turns.

The advantage of this method is that viewing a video in slow motion or or doing single frame on one video requires remembering the other frames vs this technique where you can view several selected frames, one above the other, at various times of the stroke. (Five videos is the limit on this forum.)

For the 1st backhand impact at 10 seconds, I count (just single framing back through the video from impact) that his uppermost body starts turning forward 31 frames before impact. Let's sample 6 frames apart to see his full turn, start to impact. We should see the entire turn of the uppermost body forward in 5 sampled frames, each 6 frames apart.

#1 - impact at 10 sec.
#2 - 6 frames before impact.
#3 - 12 frame before impact.
#4 - 18 frames before
#5 - 24 frames before

I noticed 2 things for the 2HBH that are new to me:

1) In the frame of video, #5 above, Djokovic starts his forward motion from a position of extreme scapular projection. Compare to impact frame. Doing single frame I might not have noticed that this joint motion had been used. Looking at the beginning of uppermost body turn from start to impact, makes it obvious, almost. Google: scapular projection

2) As the video plays for the impact at 10 sec, I saw that he lowers the head of his racket by rotating the racket shaft down just as described for the one hand backhand.

Note- This camera view is hand held and the player's position in each frame is best estimated relative to objects in the background.
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I don't think that these backhands are "unit" turn. How does the 'unit turn' deal with scapular projection and retraction? With separation?
What is a unit?
Does the upper body (defined as above the waist) ever turn as a unit? Example?
Is 'unit turn' another misleading tennis term?

Are any other 2HBH players using a unit turn? Simon?

SEARCH_TWO_HAND_BACKHAND