IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
DelPo, Nadal, Raonic also 2HBH players who use slice quite a bit, not just for emergencies.
Djok used slice quite a bit in his last match against Medvedev to change pace of the endless BH CC exchanges...
Is the backhand slice the most complex shot in tennis?
- Thread starter atp2015
- Start date
DelPo, Nadal, Raonic also 2HBH players who use slice quite a bit, not just for emergencies.
Djok used slice quite a bit in his last match against Medvedev to change pace of the endless BH CC exchanges...
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Didn't realize the op title was literal. Perhaps slice is just underated, not that it is exposing kick serve false dawn.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Your slice is amazing IowaGuy. Only video of a TT poster I've seen with the kind of slice the OP is talking about.
How tough was it for you to learn (and can you teach me?)?
atp2015
Hall of Fame
Here's the point - good serve and kick serves are hard to learn. But once you learn to hit, how often do you miss? not very often. otoh, slice might be to easy to learn - but it's terribly tough to be consistent in terms of pace and spin.
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atp2015
Hall of Fame
sure, a simple slice is easy to hit. The margin of error issue with slice is very unique - you can't really hit hard several feet over the net and expect it to go down. You can hit serve and topspin shots several feet over the net and still keep them in.
The "window of opportunity over the net" for slice is limited - assuming it's over the net - too low will make it very short and will sail long even if it's a foot or two above the ideal height. You need to calibrate the precise pace and height everytime you hit a slice. But other shots are very flexible and have freedom to vary depth and height. You claim your slices are not great, but still disagree several times with my contention.
I measure quality of my shots using a wearable sensor - and the numbers are pretty bad and each shot varies significantly - that's not the case with my other shots - they all fall in a predictable range for pace and spin.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Jim does a great job IMO explaining the "slice weapon". Well worth the $20.
https://www.usprotennisshop.com/def...&MenuGroup=menu&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
This is a nice "intro", but nowhere near the level of instruction as the DVD offers:
https://www.usprotennisshop.com/def...&MenuGroup=menu&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
This is a nice "intro", but nowhere near the level of instruction as the DVD offers:
Wise one
Hall of Fame
No, it's the easiest!
You are massively underestimating the window of opportunity over the net. I play a guy who used to be a 5.0. Still pretty solid. My slice is the only way I even hang around with him. Any topspin shot that is not even that bad is crushed back instantly. This whole notion that a slice has to be biting and dipping every time is just not true. There's a lot of wiggle room between a slow floater and a nasty dipping one. First one gets killed. 2nd one is a low margin shot, and is not needed.
Take a look at even the matches of Rosewall (acknowledged to be one of the best slicers of all time) and someone like Ramesh Krishnan (used a slice drive a lot). Even Rosewall's slices while having a lot of pace are not nasty, dipping ones every time. Check the match against Roche that is on utube. A lot of them have good clearance over the net. The real key is placement. Just like any other strokes that pros hit, they give themselves much more clearance than you think. Not even pros can hit low margin shots every time and hope to be consistent.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
there's truth to this.
when we're done with youthful tennis and going into geriatric, tai-chi inspired tennis, we'll naturally pick up the slice in no time.
I wonder if Alzheimer's or dementia affect tennis strokes.
I skipped the youthful part altogether.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Man, that is ...something.
Share your experience, what's your challenge? Learning the strokes or exerting effort or both (in a typical game)?
Took up tennis seriously only at 45. I'm also on the shorter / skinnier side and body already breaking down due to years of racquetball. Plus I had the fortune/misfortune of starting out against someone who used to be a 5.0 and was gracious enough to play with me. A few sessions with him, seeing the effort required for playing that blast away style, and given everything else I've mentioned, I realized that I would be better off not wasting time trying to be something I would never be, started watching videos of Brent Abel, Tom Avery, Lance Goodell, etc...and gravitated straight to that style.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
@mcs
IMO, it's wrong to compare yourself with others, especially when they have vastly different backgrounds. Rec tennis is a closed system/environment, ie the sky is NOT the limit. We are forever segmented into levels so we better off making the most of our own level.
I think comparing ourselves to our own yesteryear version is legit and a great way to track our development, health, interests, etc.
Re styles or what's wasting or not, my take is to follow what we enjoy. I greatly enjoy Nadal tennis and I think it fits my personality. He's not obsessed with the serve and great work ethics, intense, love running/defense a lot, hitting high margin/peace of mind. So, I make that style as my model. It happens to be very good for cardio also. I hate one/two shot game. Can't see myself loving S&V.
I play with a lot of older guys and guys that are only 10 years or less older. They don't like singles, citing it's too hard on the body BUT they are willing to stay and play 4, 5 sets of dubs (take hours), even with very bad partners/opponents.
I couldn't explain to them that they do not have to play beyond their capacity, ie just play within their own capacity. The point is that they get to actually play (as opposed to crappy dubs) and get the same/more exercise in much shorter time. Court time is better spent.
IMO, it's wrong to compare yourself with others, especially when they have vastly different backgrounds. Rec tennis is a closed system/environment, ie the sky is NOT the limit. We are forever segmented into levels so we better off making the most of our own level.
I think comparing ourselves to our own yesteryear version is legit and a great way to track our development, health, interests, etc.
Re styles or what's wasting or not, my take is to follow what we enjoy. I greatly enjoy Nadal tennis and I think it fits my personality. He's not obsessed with the serve and great work ethics, intense, love running/defense a lot, hitting high margin/peace of mind. So, I make that style as my model. It happens to be very good for cardio also. I hate one/two shot game. Can't see myself loving S&V.
I play with a lot of older guys and guys that are only 10 years or less older. They don't like singles, citing it's too hard on the body BUT they are willing to stay and play 4, 5 sets of dubs (take hours), even with very bad partners/opponents.
I couldn't explain to them that they do not have to play beyond their capacity, ie just play within their own capacity. The point is that they get to actually play (as opposed to crappy dubs) and get the same/more exercise in much shorter time. Court time is better spent.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
Thanks, it's still a work in progress
For me personally the topspin FH is actually a harder shot to master than the slice BH or kick serve, but I grew up playing other sports such as baseball, football, and basketball so that could be a factor.
My tennis coach taught me the BH slice when I started playing tennis around 12 years old. He was old-school and made me learn the BH slice before the BH topspin! He previously played D1 college tennis and had one of the best slices I have ever played against.
The main checkpoints for a high-quality offensive slice, IME, are: 1.) racket takeback behind the head, 2.) stay sideways through the shot, 3.) weight transfer onto front foot when possible, and 4.) racket follow-through to the side with offhand extended behind you for counterbalance. Once you get the proper form down, then hit about 10,000 reps with hand feeds and/or ball machine and you'll be good to go for live ball
IMHO, if you're trying to improve your slice, I think self-feeds are a good starting point to work on the proper form. Try to master self-feeds before moving to live ball. Best of luck!
FiReFTW
Legend
Thanks, it's still a work in progress
For me personally the topspin FH is actually a harder shot to master than the slice BH or kick serve, but I grew up playing other sports such as baseball, football, and basketball so that could be a factor.
My tennis coach taught me the BH slice when I started playing tennis around 12 years old. He was old-school and made me learn the BH slice before the BH topspin! He previously played D1 college tennis and had one of the best slices I have ever played against.
The main checkpoints for a high-quality offensive slice, IME, are: 1.) racket takeback behind the head, 2.) stay sideways through the shot, 3.) weight transfer onto front foot when possible, and 4.) racket follow-through to the side with offhand extended behind you for counterbalance. Once you get the proper form down, then hit about 10,000 reps with hand feeds and/or ball machine and you'll be good to go for live ball
IMHO, if you're trying to improve your slice, I think self-feeds are a good starting point to work on the proper form. Try to master self-feeds before moving to live ball. Best of luck!
Nice Federesque slice.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You're one step ahead of me with the sensor because I'm just going on gut feel.
However, it's also possible that the issue you noted is more of an idiosyncratic thing with your game as opposed to in general?
I think we're both saying the same thing. I have chosen a style that works best for me, allows me to be more consistent, and allows me to not make radical changes going forward, which in turn gives me the most enjoyment out of the game.
As for doubles, I've been playing more doubles lately, but it's not my first choice. BTW.. I don't see anything easy or less taxing about S&V as opposed to hitting from the baseline. You have to be extremely quick to defend the net and it's not as simple as you think. It's just a different game, and I'm sure people who love S&V won't be able to understand why people prefer playing the baseline, just like you wouldn't enjoy S&V. Different strokes for different folks.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
What I alluded to S&V was it'd be "short point" style, as opposed to baseline grinding or pushing. If you have the skill and quickness but not stamina, S&V certainly makes a good choice (for winning). I myself wouldn't like short point games. I like hitting a lot of shots and running. That's all.
I start to hate doubles. The game is fine but there aren't a lot of decent dubs players at the time I come out. None of these dubs players like to play singles. They are afraid of losing (some of them have hinted that) and hard work (they play doubles also in easy styles).
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
I think technically it's very easy - but it requires great skill and feel to hit it back flat and low (as opposed to a more chopped slice which can float)
coupergear
Professional
Your summary doesn't agree with your topic title. "Deceptively simple but not" is not equivalent to "most complex". I'd agree with the former, but not the latter. Take one level, say 4.0 and look at a large sample of players bh slice and serve (serve often cited as "most complex"). Do a side by side analysis comparison to a model 7.0 bh slice and serve. I'd venture you're going to find far more 4.0 bh slices that are fundamentally sound (similar to your model) versus serves.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
I honestly find it to be the easiest shot. The bit that screws me up on the BH slice is that the contact point is a lot closer to the body compared to a standard BH (2H or 1H), so I end up taking the ball a bit too far away from the body and frame the shot.
Funny thing is my contact point for my rally BHs can often be too close to my body, so it'd be nice to swap the contact points around.
Otherwise I have a nice low slice with a lot of backspin and sidespin. If I have to pick up a shot that lands short and into the body as a slice, then often I'll see it banana as it skims over the net.
I've been trying to remind myself to mix in the slice in my normal game but I keep forgetting.
Do any of you have any scenarios on when it would be a good slice to throw in a slice, other than the usual "throw opponent off rhythm", or "when you're stretched"? Best I've got is to force my opponent to get under the slice and hit up on the ball for me to put away.
Funny thing is my contact point for my rally BHs can often be too close to my body, so it'd be nice to swap the contact points around.
Otherwise I have a nice low slice with a lot of backspin and sidespin. If I have to pick up a shot that lands short and into the body as a slice, then often I'll see it banana as it skims over the net.
I've been trying to remind myself to mix in the slice in my normal game but I keep forgetting.
Do any of you have any scenarios on when it would be a good slice to throw in a slice, other than the usual "throw opponent off rhythm", or "when you're stretched"? Best I've got is to force my opponent to get under the slice and hit up on the ball for me to put away.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It's less taxing overall because the points are usually shorter, even a lot shorter. I rarely get into rallies that last more than 10 shots. If you lack the endurance for a grinder game or have mobility issues, S&V might be the best choice.
One drawback is that you might end up exerting a huge amount of energy in a very short time frame [2 or 3 shots] lunging for volleys and OHs and not everyone can keep doing that over and over again for an entire match.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
A 5.0 would play against someone starting out on a regular basis? I'm not saying you are making it up - but just immensely incredible story - (unless he is more than a tennis buddy).
He is a family friend. He is just tolerating me. I am not generally fazed by pace itself (racquetball experience over the years) and am extremely fit. So I would like to believe I give him somewhat of an exercise, but it's more my delusion. I do believe I have improved playing him while I have brought his level down too.
If he were not a close family friend, he'd have made some excuse to stop playing my sorry a** a long time ago.
If your dubs is crappy then you are doing it wrong. Dubs is a lot of fun even with older guys as long as they aren't newbies. It's just a different kind of fun. It's generally more strategic and teamwork is more important. But there are types of points you can get in doubles that are super fun that will never happen in singles. If dubs is not your thing I can get that. A lot of times I'd rather play singles, especially when I want to push myself a bit or work hard for more exercise, but dubs is by no means crappy unless you're playing with crappy players. Just find some other players to play with.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
everyone here needs a family friend who is at least 5.0 and can tolerate 3.0s
Rythm is a valid reason, but it's also a valid reason just to hit a slower or faster topspin shot. Throwing your opponent out of rhythm with any different shot is a good idea every now and then.
Changing the hitting position of your opponent is also a good reason. Tennis is 4 dimensional. Putting different spins on the ball and hitting at different trajectories is just another way to force your opponent into hitting the way you want them to instead of the way they would like to. You want to think about depth, width, height, spin and speed. All of those things can be something that will give you an edge over a specific opponent. If you don't have a slice shot in your tool bag then you are leaving out a significant percentage of the possibilities for manipulating all those variables.
I like hitting slice on high balls sometimes when I have a good angle on the slice. A down the line slice passing shot works well in a lot of situations. Slice approach shots are good because they can steal time and reduce the height of the bounce. I occasionally hit a power slice that sometimes elicits quite a response from my opponent. I'm not sure exactly what situations I use it in because I don't really use it often and hit it by instinct, but it's always in singles rallies and I like for it to hit not too far behind the service line and just skid a few inches off the ground. It's usually a winner or a forced error.
If you really want to get good at it, I'd encourage you to just commit to hitting nothing but slice off your backhand side during a match and just try to pay close attention to what works and what doesn't work. You really can get away with hitting a lot of slices as long as you aren't hitting pop up sitter slices. And, when you nail a good slice, it's as satisfying as any other shot IMO.
Stop being jealous man
Anyway, I've posted before...people assume that there are no negatives playing with someone much better. Not true. You are never going to win if you started late in life and are playing someone who is clearly much better. So you start taking bad shots and bad risks just to get a few points here and there. Then when you play players your own level, those bad habits get to you. No carryover benefits from playing someone much better. It took me a few months before I gravitated towards a much more finesse/pusher style...moving the ball around, keeping the ball low, and seeing if I can win some points using my fitness predominantly. Plus playing a style that you can sustain carries over to when playing others at your own level too.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
You got it.
I am playing with very crappy players at this point in time. I don't understand all the coincidence that makes this happen but lately my sessions were filled with unusually crappy players.
There were games where the other three couldn't sustain 3 shots, and partners that have 50/50 chance of double fault. Forget anything complex like net playing, strategies. Just hitting the ball over is a huge struggle already. The more social I am, the more involved and frustrated I become with partners or the whole game.
@user92626
I hear you. Sometimes it's hard to get good players. I ran a USTA team for a while and also have taught lessons for more than 10 years and scheduling is the worst. Drives me nuts. There's just so much to do these days. When I was young it seemed like having one extra thing to do besides school was the most common situation. Now it seems like parents fill every day with an activity for their kids. So naturally anyone that has kids is pretty much out. So if you can find an adult whose kids are grown and knows how to play, you better treat them nice.
I hear you. Sometimes it's hard to get good players. I ran a USTA team for a while and also have taught lessons for more than 10 years and scheduling is the worst. Drives me nuts. There's just so much to do these days. When I was young it seemed like having one extra thing to do besides school was the most common situation. Now it seems like parents fill every day with an activity for their kids. So naturally anyone that has kids is pretty much out. So if you can find an adult whose kids are grown and knows how to play, you better treat them nice.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
..then hit about 10,000 reps with hand feeds and/or ball machine and you'll be good to go for live ball
10,000 reps? 500 per week for 20 weeks...
user92626
G.O.A.T.
@user92626
I hear you. Sometimes it's hard to get good players. I ran a USTA team for a while and also have taught lessons for more than 10 years and scheduling is the worst. Drives me nuts. There's just so much to do these days. When I was young it seemed like having one extra thing to do besides school was the most common situation. Now it seems like parents fill every day with an activity for their kids. So naturally anyone that has kids is pretty much out.
So if you can find an adult whose kids are grown and knows how to play, you better treat them nice.
Believe me, I don't take anything (good) for granted.
People in my session are just crappy and I recently learned some are petty as well. Not only their tennis is sub-standard, they would argue and quit playing over one line call. I'm only one person, I have repeated enough times with them about playing more generously, more eagerly over improvement instead of point pettiness, half baked effort, chickens**t game picking style. But It's not easy.
I don't think these people know how valuable good tennis experience and good people are. Well, maybe they don't need/want it. They have better things going on in their life.
Anyway, I'm gonna reduce my playing with them. I'm gonna to utilize my time more wisely instead of my usual friendly, fools suffering style.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Thanks mate
I have a good slice when I do go for them, but I think I'm not using them at the right times (and sometimes it's susceptible to my forgetting the correct contact point). I can keep it nice and low--knifing even--and with a bit of side spin for good measure. Just thinking if there were other scenarios other than the ones I mentioned where it would be good to use it.
Agreed.
But let's break this down.
In terms of learning and developing throughout ones playing career (rec or pro) the serve is without doubt the hardest shot to master. No question. Even now there is talk with Nadal's serve having improved and he is what 31? 32?.
BUT
What I think the OP is really trying to say but in a click-bait kind of way is that it's surprising how the slice is not fully well developed by most players. It seems to be a case of "I have a good enough slice that will do".
Gasquet for example (who I emulate my backhand with) - his slice for me is pants. There are different types of slices, you have the high floaty ones. The low skiddy ones, and the ones that really penetrate. All involve different techniques and weight transfer.
So yes, completely agree with your point - but if I read the OP correctly, I share that thought and do ask - why are players not too bothered about mastering the slice. My immediate thoughts are because they just use it as a continuation shot in their tactical game... but I don't know for sure.
FiReFTW
Legend
Because 95% of players almost never slice, and hit topspin backhands 99.9% of the time, so whats the point of developing slice?
All court players like Dimitrov, Federer, Tsitsipas all have a good slice because they play it often and rely on it.
* Less energy required
* Slows down the game and helps buy you more time for your next shot
* When you're not well positioned and the ball is far away your TS backhand will suffer - a slice can be used to keep you in the point, and even counter punch (on the FH side as well).
* Most players struggle to respond to a well executed penetrating slice.
So while you say 95% of players almost never slice (that number is highly exaggerated in my opinion), there are at least FOUR points for developing a slice. All of them put you at an advantage.
It is no coincidence that all the top players (including Nadal and Djokovic) have a well developed slice - and they probably play it about 10% of the time, so not that often for them either.
FiReFTW
Legend
Your points are valid but doesn't change the fact that most players almost never play it.
Infact most WTA players NEVER slice the ball, or maybe once in a whole match.
And if we talk about lower non professional players its even less slicing if you watch college players or so.
Most players nowadays rarely practice alot of slices, so how do you expect them to have a great slice?
Answer this question
Take your average pro player, take college players, juniors, even rec players who are serious and train some.
If you would guess the % of each shot the player practices in their practice sessions and works on it, how would you arrange the % between forehand, backhand and backhand slice?
I would not be suprized if it was something like:
Forehand 65%
Backhand 34%
Backhand slice 1%
So how can someone develop and master a great backhand slice if they practice it 34 times and 65 times less than two other shots?
If you have so far in your practices hit 1000 slices and 34.000 topspin backhands and 65.000 forehands, the difference in mileage of each stroke is astounding.
How often do you think players do an overhead smash in a match? How hard do you think that is? What about this - an overhead smash when having to move backwards?
Hardly often. And yet - you have to not only connect, you have to direct it. If it's not well developed, it's pretty much odds on you're going to lose the point - getting it back is not enough, you need to ensure there is pace, and you have to make sure you're ready for the next shot straight away. A highly difficult shot to muster. But in match how often do we need to do this?
Just because a shot is not played enough is absolutely no reason to not have it well developed. Top players hold no prisoners with all their shots.
With rec players? It's understandable and when we are talking about these types of players I am in alignment with you.
But competitive college players? Like I said, even with some pros - sometimes I'm just surprised with how rubbish their slice is.
5263
G.O.A.T.
depends....rally vs attack rally are very different shot paths, but similar technique...
FiReFTW
Legend
But most pros practice overheads more than slice.
And I'd say the overhead is played less than the a slice in match, which kind of defeats your part of the point when you say they don't bother developing X because it's only played 1 in a hundred times. But clearly the players do for the overhead.
FiReFTW
Legend
But you cant play without a good overhead because everytime u attack the net you might need it if opponent lobs you.
Without a good overhead you have a huge weakness in your game.
You can live without a good slice, since most pros only use it when in a very extreme tough position and to get the ball in play somehow.
Which gets back to my original point:
-- It seems to be a case of "I have a good enough slice that will do".
Which I think is a strange attitude because a well developed slice will elevate your game no matter what kind of player you are.
FiReFTW
Legend
But u dont get the point it seems.
99% of WTA players never use the slice as a tool.
They use it at times to get out of trouble, and its suficient good as it is for that, they rather develop other more important strokes in their arsenal that they actually use as tools.
Now you take federer which is a good example or someone similar, they dont use the slice out of necessity to get out of trouble in extreme cases, but they use the slice as a tool, just like their other strokes.
They use it to change rhytm, vary the backspin and depth, use it to chip and charge, use it to chip big serves deep, use the short slice to lure someone to net...etc
So naturaly they need to practice it more, because they use it more and for many more things and different variations of it.
Now if ur arugment is that the majority of players would benefit using the slice as an offensive tool instead of just defending certain rare tough situations...then sure, of course I agree, the more tools and shots and variation you have the better.
But the majority dont agree, they just dont use it or have any desire to use it in such a way and focus on other things.
Now is it the coaching or youth development or something, i dont know, but its just how it is.
Why do you think people say WTA is bland? Because even if u ignore the slice, they just have (majority) way less variation in their game, most of their game is just build around bashing flat balls and outhitting the opponent from the baseline.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
Stop being jealous man
.
I'm not jealous, just awestruck, astonished, amazed- you get the idea.
I would be jealous if you start winning with your ugly strokes and I lose with all my beautiful, and silky smooth swings.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
So few use slice, because it's a very hard shot to master and do well with it.
Top spins shots are easy to learn and practice and we don't shank them often.
Everyone can hit a floaty slice with nothing much on it. The biting hard slice requires much superior feel and skill for the shot.
Serve might be hard to learn, but once you learn, it becomes mechanical and can repeat it just about anytime. Slice is a different beast. It's my experience and what I see outside.
FiReFTW
Legend
Well you are wrong.
Average weekend rec players usually have at least an ok slice even if its floaty and not penetrating and akiding.
But what kind of serve do they have?
Lol pancake bunt 1st and 2nd serve.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
Average weekend rec slice is as bad serve.
I'm talking about shots hit with full physical commitment. Not half hearted hacks.
They don't hit a single double fault, but miss lot many slices - long,wide or net.
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