First serve called out by serving team

Jim Elefante · Sep 21, 2019

I tried researching this online, but what I found was inconclusive - "26. Service calls by serving team. Neither the server nor server’s partner shall make a fault call on the first service even if they think it is out because the receiver may be giving the server the benefit of the doubt. There is one exception. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call.
https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/pdfs/2015_Code.pdf
So here's the situation: while playing men's doubles (a friendly game, not league) I inadvertently called my partner's first serve out as I was very close to the net and clearly saw it on the wrong side of the center line. The receiving player had hesitated and then ended up hitting the serve in to the net, with no call from his partner. I admitted that I was wrong in calling a ball on their side of the net, and the receiver admitted that he too thought that the serve was wide and out, though I'm not sure if his hesitation was because the ball was actually out or because I called it out. (Yeah, I know players that will come to the net and smack a winner that was obviously served out and then say it was always their call! If it's a return winner then they claim it was in, but if they hit it out or in the net they claim that the serve was obviously out.) So I then said second serve, and they said "Hold on, by me calling it 'out' that that was a hindrance and they wanted the point." If both sides agree that the first serve was out, then how could there be a hindrance and shouldn't it just be a second serve?

dblsplayer · Sep 21, 2019

According to the rule you cited, seems like you called it out before the return which would be a hindrance. If the returner missed and you let them know it was out, then second serve.

esgee48 · Sep 21, 2019

You really should not say anything on 1st serves. They are responsible for calling the ball in or out. It goes without saying that this applies only to matches. In a social situation, play it like a match because they could be more than generous and you do not want to be caught off guard. You do not want to be hit by a return that you thought the serve was long on. Stay alert and after the point, you could point out that the ball may have been long. Just say point stands though.

BTW, this thread should be in the League Forum, and not in the Ask TW Forum.

Jim Elefante · Sep 21, 2019

esgee48 said:
You really should not say anything on 1st serves. They are responsible for calling the ball in or out. It goes without saying that this applies only to matches. In a social situation, play it like a match because they could be more than generous and you do not want to be caught off guard. You do not want to be hit by a return that you thought the serve was long on. Stay alert and after the point, you could point out that the ball may have been long. Just say point stands though.

BTW, this thread should be in the League Forum, and not in the Ask TW Forum.

I wrote that "I admitted that I was wrong in calling a ball on their side of the net", but if the ball was out the play was dead, so why would you say "Just say point stands though."? - the receiver hit the ball in to the net, I wasn't trying to claim the point! Shouldn't it simply be my partner's second serve?

esgee48 · Sep 21, 2019

In a match, if they do not call a close serve out that was out, they do not get a second chance. The person was trying to return the ball, right? If he calls the ball out as he hits it, then the serve is called out. What I am saying is Stay Alert. Drop your guard because you thought the serve was out and get clocked by the return is a preventable accident. Because this was social, you could have called his return into the net a long serve and tell your partner 2nd Serve. But you do this after the ball is hit into the net, not while he is lining up to hit the ball. Or you offer 2nd serve, but he did not call the serve, which means it is in play. However, it is not a habit you should have. You should learn not to call your own 1st serves out as a habit. If your opponent is unsighted and ask for your help, then you could say it was In or Out. Only 2nd serves can be called out by the server.

The whole intent of the cited rule is to prevent someone from returning out 1st serves into play and you stopping because you saw/thought the ball out. The call is theirs. They could be generous or cheating or can't see. You play the ball if it is returned without an Out call. If they attempt the return without the Out call, and then say the ball was Out can be considered Gamesmenship. You do not want to be set up in a situation where the returner hits an Out serve for a winner and if he misses, gets a 2nd chance because you saw the serve out. No call means the ball is in play.

Jim Elefante · Sep 21, 2019

esgee48 said:
In a match, if they do not call a close serve out that was out, they do not get a second chance. The person was trying to return the ball, right? If he calls the ball out as he hits it, then the serve is called out. What I am saying is Stay Alert. Drop your guard because you thought the serve was out and get clocked by the return is a preventable accident. Because this was social, you could have called his return into the net a long serve and tell your partner 2nd Serve. But you do this after the ball is hit into the net, not while he is lining up to hit the ball. Or you offer 2nd serve, but he did not call the serve, which means it is in play. However, it is not a habit you should have. You should learn not to call your own 1st serves out as a habit. If your opponent is unsighted and ask for your help, then you could say it was In or Out. Only 2nd serves can be called out by the server.

The whole intent of the cited rule is to prevent someone from returning out 1st serves into play and you stopping because you saw/thought the ball out. The call is theirs. They could be generous or cheating or can't see. You play the ball if it is returned without an Out call. If they attempt the return without the Out call, and then say the ball was Out can be considered Gamesmenship. You do not want to be set up in a situation where the returner hits an Out serve for a winner and if he misses, gets a 2nd chance because you saw the serve out. No call means the ball is in play.

OK, I've been playing tennis for 60 YEARS NOW, and I get it! But for some reason you are NOT answering my question. Given the facts that I incorrectly called my PARTNER's first serve out, and AFTER the receiver then dumped it in to the net and agreed that the first serve was out, WHAT THEN? I think it is now my partner's second serve, WHEREAS our opponents are saying that because I called the ball out THAT THAT was a HINDRANCE and they should win the point! "No call means the ball is in play" would mean that he played it and it then went in to the net, THUS the receiving side lost the point, BUT THAT IS NOT what I'm saying!

esgee48 · Sep 21, 2019

If you called the serve out as he was hitting it, it is a hindrance. Per the rules, you are not suppose to call the 1st serve. That's why I keep harping on you not to do it. During a match, you lose the point even though the ball was not in play according to you. They may have thought the ball was good and played it, but missed because you said something. They can rightfully claim you saying something as they were preparing to hit the ball is a hindrance. That is why I say you should not say anything. BTW, I have been playing almost as long as you.

Jim Elefante · Sep 22, 2019

esgee48 said:
If you called the serve out as he was hitting it, it is a hindrance. Per the rules, you are not suppose to call the 1st serve. That's why I keep harping on you not to do it. During a match, you lose the point even though the ball was not in play according to you. They may have thought the ball was good and played it, but missed because you said something. They can rightfully claim you saying something as they were preparing to hit the ball is a hindrance. That is why I say you should not say anything. BTW, I have been playing almost as long as you.

So in your opinion, SINCE the serve was out (which we all agree on) and he played it anyway hoping to hit a winner and then claim it was good and their call (yes, I have had AH's do this, T-off on a sitter serve that was out by a mile and take the point) but then put it in to the net, is it either their point do to a hindrance OR second serve for my partner? AND, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for me calling my partner's serve, get over it!
"Per the rules, you are not suppose to call the 1st serve." - in plain English "not supposed to" does not mean "lose the point". I am very aware of the rules of calling a ball out during regular play, but on a first serve with the possibility of a second serve is a different matter all together.

Tar Heel Tennis · Sep 22, 2019

esgee48 is correct. You caused a hindrance with your preemptive call while the ball was in play. Anything that occurs after the fact is irrelevant. You lose the point.

Jim Elefante · Sep 22, 2019

Tar Heel Tennis said:
esgee48 is correct. You caused a hindrance with your preemptive call while the ball was in play. Anything that occurs after the fact is irrelevant. You lose the point.

Even on a first serve? "your preemptive call while the ball was in play", but if the ball was out and I inadvertently called it AFTER it bounced, was it really still in play?

TheIntrovert · Sep 22, 2019

I have a similar question similar to this that perhaps people could help me on. I hit the serve and stopped playing and got ready for the second serve, thinking ball was out. Returner hit a return winner, said it was in and took the point. Was it his point? Or should we have played the first serve again?

Jim Elefante · Sep 22, 2019

Since there was no hindrance (inadvertent service "out" call by the serving team) and it is the receiving team's call, they played it and with a return winner they took the point. So until it is called out, assume it is good and in play.

dblsplayer · Sep 22, 2019

Jim Elefante said:
Even on a first serve? "your preemptive call while the ball was in play", but if the ball was out and I inadvertently called it AFTER it bounced, was it really still in play?

Hmm, you have the answer, you just don’t like it. Let it go, move on, next point. Sometimes it’s best to have a short memory in tennis.

dblsplayer · Sep 22, 2019

TheIntrovert said:
I have a similar question similar to this that perhaps people could help me on. I hit the serve and stopped playing and got ready for the second serve, thinking ball was out. Returner hit a return winner, said it was in and took the point. Was it his point? Or should we have played the first serve again?

If you didn’t call it out, it’s live.

blablavla · Sep 23, 2019

dblsplayer said:
If you didn’t call it out, it’s live.

I think there was a case when Isner hit a 1st serve, got back a winner from return.
He challenged his own 1st service, and it turned that it was an out.
Then he proceeded with the second service and won the point.

however, you need to look into what the official rules are saying and which rules are used for the particular tournament / match.
ITF rules? USTA? something else?
Finally of course it helps if you and the opponent are aligned on the decision. If not, check the official rules.

red rook · Sep 23, 2019

Same thing applies if the ball is in the air sailing out from the baseline, and you call it out or otherwise make a disturbing noise, causing a hindrance. You lose the point. Rules aside, you should offer the point in the first place to be a gentlemen.

Jim Elefante · Sep 23, 2019

blablavla said:
I think there was a case when Isner hit a 1st serve, got back a winner from return.
He challenged his own 1st service, and it turned that it was an out.
Then he proceeded with the second service and won the point.

however, you need to look into what the official rules are saying and which rules are used for the particular tournament / match.
ITF rules? USTA? something else?
Finally of course it helps if you and the opponent are aligned on the decision. If not, check the official rules.

There's the rub, other than The Code that says you "shouldn't do it", but supplies no remedy "if you do". And "after the fact" (my call of out) we were all aligned on the fact that indeed the serve was out.

red rook said:
Same thing applies if the ball is in the air sailing out from the baseline, and you call it out or otherwise make a disturbing noise, causing a hindrance. You lose the point. Rules aside, you should offer the point in the first place to be a gentlemen.

"Same thing applies if the ball is in the air sailing out from the baseline, and you call it out or otherwise make a disturbing noise, causing a hindrance. You lose the point." That's my point - if the ball is sailing out, you would have lost the point anyway, but if the first serve is out, one gets a second serve!

ShaunS · Sep 23, 2019

dblsplayer said:
Hmm, you have the answer, you just don’t like it. Let it go, move on, next point.

No joke. The correct answer has been repeatedly given. Getting all huffy about it isn't going to change the reality.

Jim Elefante said:
That's my point

None of the additional points change the salient facts of the situation. You lose the point. It is clearly laid out in the rules whether you acknowledge it or not.

jm1980 · Sep 23, 2019

Jim Elefante said:
Since there was no hindrance (inadvertent service "out" call by the serving team) and it is the receiving team's call, they played it and with a return winner they took the point. So until it is called out, assume it is good and in play.

The "inadvertent" out call is the hindrance

Jim Elefante said:
Even on a first serve? "your preemptive call while the ball was in play", but if the ball was out and I inadvertently called it AFTER it bounced, was it really still in play?

It wouldn't have mattered if the serve bounced halfway between the service line and the baseline. If the receiving team didn't call it out, the ball is still in play. Don't hinder the opposing team while the ball is in play; it's not that complicated.

jm1980 · Sep 23, 2019

blablavla said:
I think there was a case when Isner hit a 1st serve, got back a winner from return.
He challenged his own 1st service, and it turned that it was an out.
Then he proceeded with the second service and won the point.

This happens quite often in the pros (server challenging "in" calls on their first serves). But this is different from rec tennis, where the receiving team/player is making the line calls.

Cindysphinx · Sep 23, 2019

Disagree with much of what has been said.

OP caused a hindrance, but opponent must actually be hindered, and opponent can’t play the shot and then claim hindrance.

Here, the opponents were not actually hindered IF they agree the serve was out.
So second serve.

And no, it is not a first serve because of delay between serves. Serving team caused the delay, if there was a delay.

dblsplayer · Sep 23, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Disagree with much of what has been said.

OP caused a hindrance, but opponent must actually be hindered, and opponent can’t play the shot and then claim hindrance.

Here, the opponents were not actually hindered IF they agree the serve was out.
So second serve.

And no, it is not a first serve because of delay between serves. Serving team caused the delay, if there was a delay.
[/

Cindysphinx · Sep 23, 2019

dblsplayer said:
Um, wrong. Just watch the Serena hindrance vs Stosur in the US open. Hindrance was called as soon as she shouted, regardless what Stousr did or was going to do.

Um, read the Code.

dblsplayer · Sep 23, 2019

R1FF · Sep 23, 2019

Your opponent is being a weasel. Because y’all all know the ball was out and it should be 2nd serve.

But he’s right, you did commit a hinderance per the rules. Give him the point. He has a right to call OUT balls IN. You have zero right to call your own team’s serves.

Chalk it up to your own mistake and move past it.

As for them waiting to see the outcome of their return before making a call, they cant, dont let them. If they return without saying anything, assume the ball is in play. And if they try to claim anything after blasting their return out - take the damn point.

kylebarendrick · Sep 23, 2019

Any reasonable person would play a second serve in that situation - especially since the receiver agreed it was out. If your opponent really wanted to push things, they simply had to say "I thought it was out but wasn't sure, so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your inappropriate out call hindered me so I am taking the point". Perfectly within their rights but would set an uncomfortable tenor for the rest of the match. I'm assuming this was a bang-bang call as you called out while they were swinging and they didn't have a chance to stop and call the hindrance before making contact.

OnTheLine · Sep 23, 2019

Okay .... corollary question ... from a match today.
One of the opponents was an expert in attempted gamesmanship. Non stop all match.
Calling out score wrong in their favor nearly every point ...
Little stupid stuff ... as receiver, being in ready position then just as I am tossing saying "just a sec" and conferring with partner or tying shoe or something .... often ... Returning out 1st serves at an angle so hits side fence on our side so ball must now be retrieved between 1st and 2nd. Every time.
Line calls ... don't want to talk about them.

On one particular serve .... looked well in from my vantage point ... she returns it well long THEN calls it out. Clearly against the rules.
I say you can't call it out after you have hit it ... move to other side, claim the point and then All Hell Breaks Loose. She went nuts ... her partner stayed silent ... my partner being one who does not like confrontation says fine, we will replay the point. Opponent agrees. I am irritated but whatever.
Go and re-state the score and say 1st serve. She went nuts again and said no 2nd serve. I looked at her and said if we are replaying the point it is first serve, otherwise it is our point ... can't have it both ways. Her partner finally agreed with me.

Thoughts?

BTW this is 4.0 level and this lady has been around for years and has a reputation none too good.

schmke · Sep 23, 2019

OnTheLine said:
Okay .... corollary question ... from a match today.
One of the opponents was an expert in attempted gamesmanship. Non stop all match.
Calling out score wrong in their favor nearly every point ...
Little stupid stuff ... as receiver, being in ready position then just as I am tossing saying "just a sec" and conferring with partner or tying shoe or something .... often ... Returning out 1st serves at an angle so hits side fence on our side so ball must now be retrieved between 1st and 2nd. Every time.
Line calls ... don't want to talk about them.

On one particular serve .... looked well in from my vantage point ... she returns it well long THEN calls it out. Clearly against the rules.
I say you can't call it out after you have hit it ... move to other side, claim the point and then All Hell Breaks Loose. She went nuts ... her partner stayed silent ... my partner being one who does not like confrontation says fine, we will replay the point. Opponent agrees. I am irritated but whatever.
Go and re-state the score and say 1st serve. She went nuts again and said no 2nd serve. I looked at her and said if we are replaying the point it is first serve, otherwise it is our point ... can't have it both ways. Her partner finally agreed with me.

Thoughts?

BTW this is 4.0 level and this lady has been around for years and has a reputation none too good.

Spot on. Replaying the point replays the whole point, so first serve.

If the agreement was instead that the serve was out and you had caused the delay between first and second serves by questioning the call, then perhaps there is argument for it being second serve. But per your account, the agreement was to replay the point.

Cawlin · Sep 23, 2019

Let's say a hindrance actually occurred prior to the receiver striking the served ball - the hindering team should "lose the point" - but if that's on a first serve, does that mean that the serving team now gets a second serve, or that the serving team has lost the point altogether?

jm1980 · Sep 23, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Disagree with much of what has been said.

OP caused a hindrance, but opponent must actually be hindered, and opponent can’t play the shot and then claim hindrance.

Here, the opponents were not actually hindered IF they agree the serve was out.

Well, yes. But the "out" call by the server's partner allows the opposing to team to claim a hindrance (and thus, the point). It's still up to them to actually call it, and to do so in a timely fashion.

schmke · Sep 23, 2019

jm1980 said:
Well, yes. But the "out" call by the server's partner allows the opposing to team to claim a hindrance (and thus, the point). It's still up to them to actually call it, and to do so in a timely fashion.

This is the key point. They had to have claimed the hindrance when it occurred and not after a discussion.

jmc3367 · Sep 23, 2019

who calls a hindrance in a friendly game? just saying if it was a friendly game let the guy take 2 and move on. Calling a hindrance in a friendly game is almost like calling a foot fault in a friendly game.

chatt_town · Sep 25, 2019

Jim Elefante said:
I tried researching this online, but what I found was inconclusive - "26. Service calls by serving team. Neither the server nor server’s partner shall make a fault call on the first service even if they think it is out because the receiver may be giving the server the benefit of the doubt. There is one exception. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call.
https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/pdfs/2015_Code.pdf
So here's the situation: while playing men's doubles (a friendly game, not league) I inadvertently called my partner's first serve out as I was very close to the net and clearly saw it on the wrong side of the center line. The receiving player had hesitated and then ended up hitting the serve in to the net, with no call from his partner. I admitted that I was wrong in calling a ball on their side of the net, and the receiver admitted that he too thought that the serve was wide and out, though I'm not sure if his hesitation was because the ball was actually out or because I called it out. (Yeah, I know players that will come to the net and smack a winner that was obviously served out and then say it was always their call! If it's a return winner then they claim it was in, but if they hit it out or in the net they claim that the serve was obviously out.) So I then said second serve, and they said "Hold on, by me calling it 'out' that that was a hindrance and they wanted the point." If both sides agree that the first serve was out, then how could there be a hindrance and shouldn't it just be a second serve?

That's horse poop...if you both agree it was out...then it was out. end of story...second serve.

Cindysphinx · Sep 25, 2019

jm1980 said:
Well, yes. But the "out" call by the server's partner allows the opposing to team to claim a hindrance (and thus, the point). It's still up to them to actually call it, and to do so in a timely fashion.

Mmmm, I’m not quite there with you.

You cannot call a hindrance and claim a point on a ball upon which you didn’t have a play.

Well, if the receiving team says the serve was out, they didn’t have a play on it because the point never started.

If the receiving team says the serve was in, then they can say they were actually hindered and had a play on the ball, and they can claim the point.

R1FF · Sep 25, 2019

OnTheLine said:
Okay .... corollary question ... from a match today.
One of the opponents was an expert in attempted gamesmanship. Non stop all match.
Calling out score wrong in their favor nearly every point ...
Little stupid stuff ... as receiver, being in ready position then just as I am tossing saying "just a sec" and conferring with partner or tying shoe or something .... often ... Returning out 1st serves at an angle so hits side fence on our side so ball must now be retrieved between 1st and 2nd. Every time.
Line calls ... don't want to talk about them.

On one particular serve .... looked well in from my vantage point ... she returns it well long THEN calls it out. Clearly against the rules.
I say you can't call it out after you have hit it ... move to other side, claim the point and then All Hell Breaks Loose. She went nuts ... her partner stayed silent ... my partner being one who does not like confrontation says fine, we will replay the point. Opponent agrees. I am irritated but whatever.
Go and re-state the score and say 1st serve. She went nuts again and said no 2nd serve. I looked at her and said if we are replaying the point it is first serve, otherwise it is our point ... can't have it both ways. Her partner finally agreed with me.

Thoughts?

BTW this is 4.0 level and this lady has been around for years and has a reputation none too good.

All that occurred in one match?

Drag her in the parking lot. Seriously.

Tennis players have gotten so comfortable in thinking the net is some protective barrier that allows them to pull endless BS.

R1FF · Sep 25, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Mmmm, I’m not quite there with you.

You cannot call a hindrance and claim a point on a ball upon which you didn’t have a play.

Well, if the receiving team says the serve was out, they didn’t have a play on it because the point never started.

If the receiving team says the serve was in, then they can say they were actually hindered and had a play on the ball, and they can claim the point.

Interesting nuance.

You’ve won me over on this debate.

Ultimately tho, the serving team created the mess by calling out a line call they had no right to do.

OnTheLine · Sep 25, 2019

R1FF said:
All that occurred in one match?

Drag her in the parking lot. Seriously.

Tennis players have gotten so comfortable in thinking the net is some protective barrier that allows them to pull endless BS.

Trust that she had me thinking violent thoughts.

J_R_B · Sep 26, 2019

kylebarendrick said:
Any reasonable person would play a second serve in that situation - especially since the receiver agreed it was out. If your opponent really wanted to push things, they simply had to say "I thought it was out but wasn't sure, so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your inappropriate out call hindered me so I am taking the point". Perfectly within their rights but would set an uncomfortable tenor for the rest of the match. I'm assuming this was a bang-bang call as you called out while they were swinging and they didn't have a chance to stop and call the hindrance before making contact.

This is the correct answer. The opponent is actually well within his right to call a hinderance and claim the point because you made a call while he was playing a shot, but anybody not looking to be difficult would have just played the second.

Cawlin · Sep 26, 2019

OnTheLine said:
Returning out 1st serves at an angle so hits side fence on our side so ball must now be retrieved between 1st and 2nd. Every time.

In this case, I would pick up the ball the first time it happened. The next time it happened, I'd say "can you not hit that ball that is obvously out, just let it go, or catch it or something, but please don't hit it back over here when it's obviously out." the third time it happened, I'd say "I'll take a first serve." and would continue taking a first serve every time it happened again until the behavior stopped.

OnTheLine · Sep 26, 2019

Cawlin said:
In this case, I would pick up the ball the first time it happened. The next time it happened, I'd say "can you not hit that ball that is obvously out, just let it go, or catch it or something, but please don't hit it back over here when it's obviously out." the third time it happened, I'd say "I'll take a first serve." and would continue taking a first serve every time it happened again until the behavior stopped.

Had I been playing against someone in the normal spectrum I would agree with you. And it would be quick and cordial and all good.

But from the word go, this lady was clearly nuts and high drama .... would have just resulted in more nonsense. Not worth it.

ChaelAZ · Sep 26, 2019

dblsplayer said:
Hmm, you have the answer, you just don’t like it. Let it go, move on, next point. Sometimes it’s best to have a short memory in tennis.

Exaclty.

jm1980 · Sep 26, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Mmmm, I’m not quite there with you.

You cannot call a hindrance and claim a point on a ball upon which you didn’t have a play.

Well, if the receiving team says the serve was out, they didn’t have a play on it because the point never started.

If the receiving team says the serve was in, then they can say they were actually hindered and had a play on the ball, and they can claim the point.

In the situation described by the OP, it seemed like the receiving team actually had a play on the serve, but was hindered by the out call

R1FF · Sep 26, 2019

jm1980 said:
In the situation described by the OP, it seemed like the receiving team actually had a play on the serve, but was hindered by the out call

What Cindy is saying tho, is that if BOTH parties agreed that the ball was indeed out, then there never was a legal play on the ball because it was never in play. Therefore a hinderance never could’ve occurred.

Basically, the receiving team messed up the moment they admitted that the ball they tried to play was “out” after the fact. In that moment they gave up the right to call hinderance.

You can play out balls.
You can call the hinderance.

But if you admit the ball was out, no play on ball or hinderance ever actually occurred.

Interesting semantics.

jm1980 · Sep 26, 2019

R1FF said:
Basically, the receiving team messed up the moment they admitted that the ball they tried to play was “out” after the fact. In that moment they gave up the right to call hinderance.

If I understood the OP correctly, the receiver only revealed this in the discussion following the point. By the time he hit the return, neither he nor did his partner make an "out" call - only the OP who was the server's partner.

In a social match most people in this situation tend to just agree to replay the point and move on. But in a competitive match there are some players/teams who will call the hindrance. The easiest way to avoid this is to just not make line calls from the other side of the net

R1FF · Sep 26, 2019

jm1980 said:
If I understood the OP correctly, the receiver only revealed this in the discussion following the point. By the time he hit the return, neither he nor did his partner make an "out" call - only the OP who was the server's partner.

In a social match most people in this situation tend to just agree to replay the point and move on. But in a competitive match there are some players/teams who will call the hindrance. The easiest way to avoid this is to just not make line calls from the other side of the net

I think you did understand the OP correctly.

Cindy’s interpretation is that once the returner reveals after the fact that the ball was indeed out, it’s as if the hinderance never happened because it wasnt a playable ball.

That’s the nuance here regarding a hinderance. The ball must be playable.

We pretty much all agree the guy shouldn’t have made the call/hinderance. We all agree the returner was within his right to call the hinderance. But once they admit they knew the ball was out, they leave the door open for someone to argue that it wasnt a playable point, therefore not hinderance eligible.

AsI said, interesting comedy of errors.

Morch Us · Sep 26, 2019

Yes. The ball is in play till there is an out call by the receiving team (or till the ball is hit to the net).
It is really irrelevant whether the ball was actually IN or OUT, or where it bounced.

Now, any reasonable team would just play this as a second serve, and move on.

Jim Elefante said:
if the ball was out and I inadvertently called it AFTER it bounced, was it really still in play?

Morch Us · Sep 26, 2019

Again it really is irrelevant whether the ball was OUT or IN. So "agreeing" it was out at a later time does not change the fact that "the ball was in play" at the time. There was no legal call, and because of that the ball was still in play, thats it.

R1FF said:
once the returner reveals after the fact that the ball was indeed out, it’s as if the hinderance never happened because it wasnt a playable ball.

Morch Us · Sep 26, 2019

This I agree though. Hindrance call should be made in timely fashion.

schmke said:
They had to have claimed the hindrance when it occurred and not after a discussion.

Morch Us · Sep 26, 2019

This is easy answer. Your opponents point. There was no call, and the return is a valid winner.

This happens all the time in dirty competitive matches, returner delays the call as much as possible and try to hit winners off out serves, and call it out just when they know they did not make a good swing/contact. Higher level players does not have to wait for the return to hit the net or go out to know that it will go to net or go out or would just be a bad return in general. They know it right after their swing, and they delay the call purposely till they get the feel of the swing. If they delay the call too long, it will become obvious. But if they delay it till slightly after their swing, it won't be that obvious.

TheIntrovert said:
I have a similar question similar to this that perhaps people could help me on. I hit the serve and stopped playing and got ready for the second serve, thinking ball was out. Returner hit a return winner, said it was in and took the point. Was it his point? Or should we have played the first serve again?

Morch Us · Sep 26, 2019

The receiving team said the serve was out well after the play, which is why it is irrelevant.
So at the time of the play, there was no call and because of that the ball was still legal, and there WAS a play.

Cindysphinx said:
You cannot call a hindrance and claim a point on a ball upon which you didn’t have a play.
Well, if the receiving team says the serve was out, they didn’t have a play on it because the point never started.

First serve called out by serving team

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