Nadal is weak on indoor hard court and Sampras is weak on clay

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great. In fairness, Nadal gets dock for his weakness during the indoor season. Nadal fans don't hesitate to diminish Sampras for his poor results on clay, but don't do the same for Nadal on indoor. Both players legacy are not well-polished. You can't have it both way.

I'm just asking for consistency here.
 
Last edited:

NonP

Legend
Our resident (Fed-)village clown has a point for once. Here's the full comparison:

The comparison with Sampras is quite interesting and makes more sense than one might gather at first glance. (I explored this very topic in a group chat back in June, in a reply to @Bender much of which follows with added stats and minor editing.) Of course the stock retort is that at least Rafa reached two finals at the YEC while Pete couldn't even manage a single one at RG, but there are only 5 rounds in the former while a major requires 7 hurdles to clear. That's one caveat that has special bearing here as it's generally agreed that burnout was the big reason for Pistol's straight-set loss to his career pigeon Kafelnikov in the SF (more on this shortly) - not to mention that you can take one loss and still win the YEC (in fact Pete never won the whole shebang undefeated, three times thanks to Becker who may well be the best indoor player ever), but since Rafa didn't suffer a RR loss in the two years he reached the final we'll ignore this part - but the follow-up will be that YECs tend to attract superior opposition so let's look at each guy's actual draws.

Pete at '96 FO:
SF - Kafelnikov
QF - Courier
4R - Draper
3R - Martin
2R - Bruguera
1R - Gustafsson

Rafa at '10 YEC:
F - Federer
SF - Murray
RR - Djokovic, Berdych, Roddick

'13 YEC:
F - Djokovic
SF - Federer
RR - Ferrer, Berdych, Wawrinka

On paper Rafa's opposition does look somewhat more impressive, but when you dig deeper he's really got only one big win in the '13 SF vs. Fed. Two if you include the '10 RRer vs. Novak, which still is the same # of Pete's own big Ws at '96 RG against almost-turning-back-the-block Bruguera and Courier. (I'd say '96 Martin and '10 Murray more or less cancel each other out.) And while Kafelnikov in '96 won "only" 57.6% of his games on clay (excluding TBs) his conversion rate at RG was a stellar 64.3% (all FO stats in this post include TBs) - higher than Fed's 58.4% in '09 and just barely below Novak's 64.9% in '16 or Muster's 64.5% in his celebrated '95 season where he won 62.0% overall. There's no guarantee that even in-shape Pistol gets past this Kafelnikov at RG or, for that matter, Rafa vs. a comparable opponent at the YEC.

Plus Pete's '96 FO run isn't his only notable one on clay, in fact I personally like to nominate his '95 DC heroics as the single greatest achievement of his career. Let's look at his DC opponents on clay that year:

QF - Furlan, Gaudenzi
F - Chesnokov, doubles w/Martin vs. Kafelnikov/Olhovskiy, Kafelnikov again

We can dismiss the QF and you could add Chesnokov was past his prime by then, but Pete's victory over the scrappy Muscovite (who, like all good comrades, treated DC very seriously) was a hard-fought one, and when you couple that with his unexpected next-day doubles duty and the following day's masterclass against next year's FO champ (who FYI won a respectable 55.7% on clay in '95 which probably was higher as he played 6 of his 8 singles DC rubbers on the surface) you can easily argue that his performance in the '95 DC finals was as good as anything from Rafa in any indoor setting, if not even better.

Now one could counter that if we're counting Sampras' DC performance Nadal's five DC title runs must also be considered, but Rafa's major DC triumphs have come mostly on clay and when we compare players' indoor records we're almost invariably talking about their performance on hard/carpet. What else then? Rafa's '05 Paris is more or less equal to Pete's '94 Rome, while the former's '13 Brasil Open on clay is about as meaningful as the latter's '92 Kitzbühel or '98 Atlanta. Maybe you feel differently but I'm not seeing much of a gap between the two.

One thing I'll grant Nadal is his superior longevity/consistency, though even here I could argue that Pete's comparable resume in a shorter time frame is in fact a point in his favor. But the purpose of this analysis is not to argue Pistol was a better clay-courter than Rafa the indoor player, but to point out that these two were similarly strong (or not) in their prime and merely glancing at each's best FO/YEC records is a poor way of judging their actual respective prowess on clay/indoors. Both could play inspired tennis anywhere, but would fall short of other GOATs on their own weakest surface more often than not.

All that said... it's undeniable that the YEC no longer boasts the same cachet it once did. So Rafa's weakness does look somewhat less obtrusive if you insist on partisan d!ck measuring, but should any player's resume be contingent on the vicissitudes of time? Or maybe, just maybe, we should judge it by the standards of his/her own era? This is such a toughie for serious fans and historians!!!
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great.
If true, why was Pete almost universally considered GOAT until June, 2009, when Roger won the FO and passed him in # of slams? His lack of a FO title didn't seem to bother anyone (except Pete himself) up until 2009.

Sampras won three clay events (including the Italian Open) and almost single-handedly won the 1995 DC in Russia on slow clay, winning all three of his rubbers. One of his wins there was over a FO singles champion. Sampras was a fine clay court player, he just excelled on faster surfaces.
 

alexio

G.O.A.T.
i was thinking about beatlesfan that she has something to say on this matter and here you are, cool:D
 
D

Deleted member 744633

Guest
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great. In fairness, Nadal gets dock for his weakness during the indoor season. Nadal fans don't hesitate to diminish Sampras for his poor results on clay, but don't do the same for Nadal on indoor. Both players legacy are not well-polished. You can't have it both way.

I'm just asking for consistency here.

I'm a Sampras fan first and foremost and yet I find several things wrong with your post.

First, there is no slam on indoor hard but there is on clay. Sampras has a glittering resume good enough to get him in the top 3 or 5 of all time. Missing a slam on clay hurts him in the GOAT stakes relative to Nadal but it's a mighty fine resume in any case.

Second, I was on this forum when Federer was on the verge of breaking Sampras' record. it was the Federer fanboys, not Nadal fans, that often belittled Sampras for his lack of a clay slam. Now that Federer's records are falling like pins, you claim that Nadal fans diminish Sampras? LOL, how times have changed! I've been on this forum a considerable time and Nadal fans have been more than gracious toward Sampras. Now that Federer's records are falling, his fans are being very complimentary toward Sampras. I wonder why!

Third, you cannot compare a best of 3 indoor tournament with BO5 slams. As @SecondToNone already said, if there'd been an indoor slam, there's little doubt it'd be on Nadal's resume already.
 

chut

Professional
When Sampras started playing, the slam race didnt exist. He actually created this race.
When he grew up as a player, masters had the same value as a slam. In his time, winning big titles was winning slams or the masters, not winning m1000, which didnt even exist.
His game was much better on fast courts so he usually tried harder at the masters. Just like Nadal tries harder on clay.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great. In fairness, Nadal gets dock for his weakness during the indoor season. Nadal fans don't hesitate to diminish Sampras for his poor results on clay, but don't do the same for Nadal on indoor. Both players legacy are not well-polished. You can't have it both way.

I'm just asking for consistency here.
disagree, Nadal is good on all surfaces and that is why he is GOAT
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
Sampras didn’t really bother with clay. It was never his thing and he had nothing to prove on that surface because he openly stated it was never his surface. Sampras was the best player in my lifetime on FAST Court (as in 90s pace). His serve was potent without being hard, his volleying was sublime and yet understated, he had the ability to break your rhythm and make you play out of your comfort zone.

Today? Djoko is a machine, Nadal is a warrior and Fed is the grace that binds all - we have been blessed to have such wonderful players. Let’s enjoy them, GOAT is personal choice
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
If true, why was Pete almost universally considered GOAT until June, 2009, when Roger won the FO and passed him in # of slams? His lack of a FO title didn't seem to bother anyone (except Pete himself) up until 2009.

Sampras won three clay events (including the Italian Open) and almost single-handedly won the 1995 DC in Russia on slow clay, winning all three of his rubbers. One of his wins there was over a FO singles champion. Sampras was a fine clay court player, he just excelled on faster surfaces.

His Rome draw was exceptionally weak, especially for clay.
 

daggerman

Hall of Fame
Relatively weak. Nadal is still no worse than, say, the 4th- or 5th-best indoor hard court player in the world at 34-years-old. Likewise, Pete had several QFs runs at Roland Garros, won Rome, and beat some excellent clay courters in their prime. It's a relative weakness.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
If true, why was Pete almost universally considered GOAT until June, 2009, when Roger won the FO and passed him in # of slams? His lack of a FO title didn't seem to bother anyone (except Pete himself) up until 2009.

Sampras won three clay events (including the Italian Open) and almost single-handedly won the 1995 DC in Russia on slow clay, winning all three of his rubbers. One of his wins there was over a FO singles champion. Sampras was a fine clay court player, he just excelled on faster surfaces.

Came through and slayed.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
RAFA has made the F of the YEC 2x and the SF 4x extra times compared to PETE’s lone SF at RG. Neither are great on their worst surface/condition, but there’s plenty to separate RAFA at his worst vs PETE at his worst.

And since this thread is designed to poke holes in the resumes of players from opposing fan bases I’ll pose a different question.

What’s worse, not being able to win a big title on your worst surface (WTF for RAFA, RG for PETE)? VS not being able to win a big title on your best surface (Olympics on grass for Ol’ Rog, HC for Joker)?
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great. In fairness, Nadal gets dock for his weakness during the indoor season. Nadal fans don't hesitate to diminish Sampras for his poor results on clay, but don't do the same for Nadal on indoor. Both players legacy are not well-polished. You can't have it both way.

I'm just asking for consistency here.

Also, Nadal has this legendary feat on indoor hardcourts, even though it's his least favorite condition (we'll keep reminding you of it, just to rub it in.LOL):

 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great. In fairness, Nadal gets dock for his weakness during the indoor season. Nadal fans don't hesitate to diminish Sampras for his poor results on clay, but don't do the same for Nadal on indoor. Both players legacy are not well-polished. You can't have it both way.

I'm just asking for consistency here.

Meh, Pete is still one of the best ever for me. In terms of tennis ability the big 3 are not above him and never will be as far I'm concerned.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Our resident (Fed-)village clown has a point for once. Here's the full comparison:



All that said... it's undeniable that the YEC no longer boasts the same cachet it once did. So Rafa's weakness does look somewhat less obtrusive if you insist on partisan d!ck measuring, but should any player's resume be contingent on the vicissitudes of time? Or maybe, just maybe, we should judge it by the standards of his/her own era? This is such a toughie for serious fans and historians!!!

It's not about YEC specifically, it's about how ineffective Nadal game becomes under certain conditions. His weakness is not as consequential in today's era because every slam is high bouncing (relatively speaking), it's individual how much that affects opinion on him as a player but it's there.

Borg for example was a monster on indoor carpet (ditto for Lendl), it's only in this era that the most accomplished guy will be the one who didn't develop his game for faster conditions because they simply aren't there.
 
D

Deleted member 771911

Guest
If indoors was a grand slam I'm sure that Nadal would win it at least once.

Agreed. He tweaked his game for grass and hard.
The tournaments helped him with their own tweaking, too. I feel if indoors was a slam surface, they'd have helped him out there, too.
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
But the disparity on clay alone is much greater than the disparity on grass + HC.

The slams already take into account that disparity.

Disparity is taken care of by the title of Clay GOAT. At other slams Pete is ahead, not by a lot, but he is ahead of Nadal in the majority of slams.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Upon ranking the players all-time-great, Sampras always gets dock for his weakness on clay, and it hurts his placement in all-time-great. In fairness, Nadal gets dock for his weakness during the indoor season. Nadal fans don't hesitate to diminish Sampras for his poor results on clay, but don't do the same for Nadal on indoor. Both players legacy are not well-polished. You can't have it both way.

I'm just asking for consistency here.
Rafa is single-handedly the most warrior tennis player on the planet earth, he isn't weak anywhere.
He made multiple WTF semis and finals. If I may ask, how many clay finals did Sampras make??
 
D

Deleted member 744633

Guest
What trolling? Federer and Sampras the best at tennis

Nadal best at moonballing. Djokovic best at pushing.

Federer is certainly best at one thing ... setting records that get broken very soon! ;)
 

duaneeo

Legend
Second, I was on this forum when Federer was on the verge of breaking Sampras' record. it was the Federer fanboys, not Nadal fans, that often belittled Sampras for his lack of a clay slam.

I suspect what really happened is that there were a rash of "who is better--Roger or Pete" threads once they tied in the slam count, and belittling happened on both sides.

Likewise, I suspect there were a rash of "who is better--Rafa or Pete" threads once they tied in the slam count, and belittling happened on both sides.
 
If indoors was a grand slam I'm sure that Nadal would win it at least once.
72364423.jpg
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
What’s worse, not being able to win a big title on your worst surface (WTF for RAFA, RG for PETE)? VS not being able to win a big title on your best surface (Olympics on grass for Ol’ Rog, HC for Joker)?
Considering Roger only had 1 attempt in a 22 year career (and Novak's had what, 2 attempts?) I'm gonna go ahead and say Rafa/Pete comes out looking worse here.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
RAFA has made the F of the YEC 2x and the SF 4x extra times compared to PETE’s lone SF at RG. Neither are great on their worst surface/condition, but there’s plenty to separate RAFA at his worst vs PETE at his worst.

And since this thread is designed to poke holes in the resumes of players from opposing fan bases I’ll pose a different question.

What’s worse, not being able to win a big title on your worst surface (WTF for RAFA, RG for PETE)? VS not being able to win a big title on your best surface (Olympics on grass for Ol’ Rog, HC for Joker)?
That was held just the one year tho
 
Top