Battle of the Genders

leech · Apr 22, 2021

Fun proposal that I texted to some of the most prolific singles players in our Section. One set vs each other, round robin.

@BallBag (one of the top 4.0 men in our Section; 3.87 TennisRecord rating; 7.20 UTR)
4.0C lady (will have the best record in our Section at year-end, no doubt; 4.19 TR; 6.41 UTR)
4.5C lady (crushed it at singles at every level; 4.39 TR; 6.23 UTR)
me (4.0C; 3.82 TR; 6.93 UTR)

Hope to get this scheduled in the next month. May be tough because each of us play in so many leagues/tourneys.

Has anyone here played someone of the opposite gender in singles and want to share their experience/results? My rule of thumb has been that you should add 0.5 to a guy's NTRP when comparing to ladies, but in this particular set of matchups, my money is on the 4.0C lady...

sureshs · Apr 22, 2021

Make sure @OnTheLine is there. She is a league veteran.

leech · Apr 22, 2021

sureshs said:
Make sure @OnTheLine is there. She is a league veteran.

The next time I visit Vegas, will try to hit her up, fo' sho!

Doan · Apr 22, 2021

leech said:
Fun proposal that I texted to some of the most prolific singles players in our Section. One set vs each other, round robin.

@BallBag (one of the top 4.0 men in our Section; 3.87 TennisRecord rating; 7.20 UTR)

4.0C lady (will have the best record in our Section at year-end, no doubt; 4.19 TR; 6.41 UTR)

4.5C lady (crushed it at singles at every level; 4.39 TR; 6.23 UTR)

me (4.0C; 3.82 TR; 6.96 UTR)

Hope to get this scheduled in the next month. May be tough because each of us play in so many leagues/tourneys. But my money is on the 4.0C lady...

Dunno - I think your junk+spin could well throw them off their game. Especially as there is no 2nd set once they have got used to your style.

leech · Apr 22, 2021

Doan said:
Dunno - I think your junk+spin could well throw them off their game. Especially as there is no 2nd set once they have got used to your style.

Alas, I've played all of these opponents in MXD already. Lost to both ladies and squeaked out a win vs @BallBag (and he crushed everyone at a recent men's doubles scrimmage I was part of). So they know my style.

time_fly · Apr 22, 2021

I suppose it depends. In doubles adding 0.5 to a guy’s NTRP when comparing against women is reasonable. My impression in singles is that you need to add a bit more, like 0.75, assuming both the man and woman are regular singles players. It’s not necessarily due to the strokes as much as the guys often covering the court a lot better

RyanRF · Apr 22, 2021

dang 7.20 UTR is a strong 4.0

Space_D · Apr 22, 2021

Just looked up the 4.0C and 4.5C ladies, not sure I'd want to play either of them in singles haha. Well on second thought, not sure I'd want to play @leech in singles either

leech · Apr 22, 2021

Space_D said:
Just looked up the 4.0C and 4.5C ladies, not sure I'd want to play either of them in singles haha. Well on second thought, not sure I'd want to play @leech in singles either

Holy crap! Just looked up as well. 139-4 in singles for the 4.5C lady; a mere 34-1 for the 4.0C lady (for the entirety of their USTA careers).

I'm at 69-31; the other 4.0C dude is 49-28 (but has played up at 4.5).

jhick · Apr 22, 2021

leech said:
Has anyone here played someone of the opposite gender in singles and want to share their experience/results? My rule of thumb has been that you should add 0.5 to a guy's NTRP when comparing to ladies, but in this particular set of matchups, my money is on the 4.0C lady...

I believe it depends on the matchup. I'm a 4.5 and have played my sister (4.5 woman on the stronger side) in singles and while she can absolutely hang with me on the baseline, my serve and aggressive net game give me an advantage. I haven't played her recently, but usually she gets 2-3 games on me/set. Recently played a few games against a D2 teaching pro who was an all american in college and in her 20's. She moved so well on the court it was tough to get anything past her. I would guess most would consider her to be a 5.5. So fast and consistent, even sliding around the court. I held my serve once and was down 1-2. The only reason I was able to hold was due to my serve. Otherwise I had no chance.

leech · Apr 22, 2021

time_fly said:
I suppose it depends. In doubles adding 0.5 to a guy’s NTRP when comparing against women is reasonable. My impression in singles is that you need to add a bit more, like 0.75, assuming both the man and woman are regular singles players. It’s not necessarily due to the strokes as much as the guys often covering the court a lot better

That makes sense and I'd agree. Just not in this particular instance...the 4.0C lady ran track in college. I'll be the least proficient in court coverage among the four players, and I'm not slow (just old).

jhick · Apr 22, 2021

jhick said:
I believe it depends on the matchup. I'm a 4.5 and have played my sister (4.5 woman on the stronger side) in singles and while she can absolutely hang with me on the baseline, my serve and aggressive net game give me an advantage. I haven't played her recently, but usually she gets 2-3 games on me/set. Recently played a few games against a D2 teaching pro who was an all american in college and in her 20's. She moved so well on the court it was tough to get anything past her. I would guess most would consider her to be a 5.5. So fast and consistent, even sliding around the court. I held my serve once and was down 1-2. The only reason I was able to hold was due to my serve. Otherwise I had no chance.

I looked up the UTR of the D2 player and she is at 11. I think when I was playing more USTA I was probably an 8.

Doan · Apr 22, 2021

leech said:
Holy crap! Just looked up as well. 139-4 in singles for the 4.5C lady; a mere 34-1 for the 4.0C lady (for the entirety of their USTA careers).
I'm at 69-31; the other 4.0C dude is 49-28 (but has played up at 4.5).

She's only still a 4.0C due to USTA's covid decision. I mean she was regularly handing out bagels and double bagels to decent 4.0 ladies last year and doing the same this year.

jhick · Apr 22, 2021

Doan said:
She's only still a 4.0C due to USTA's covid decision. I mean she was regularly handing out bagels and double bagels to decent 4.0 ladies last year and doing the same this year.

How do they not get DQ'd or at the very least bumped up with those kinds of results?

leech · Apr 22, 2021

jhick said:
How do they not get DQ'd or at the very least bumped up with those kinds of results?

She must have barely survived getting bumped at end of 2019. Killed it in 2020, even winning most of her 4.5 matches but didn't get bumped because of USTA's decision to freeze ratings. Killing it again in 2021.

time_fly · Apr 22, 2021

leech said:
That makes sense and I'd agree. Just not in this particular instance...the 4.0C lady ran track in college. I'll be the least proficient in court coverage among the four players, and I'm not slow (just old).

I ran track in college too; trust me at nearly age 50 it's more of a liability than an advantage -- just ask my knees and hips!

I don't know their ages vs. yours but unless there's a huge age gap or you are much less fit than they are, you should be faster. When I was in HS I was a decent but not exceptional XC runner. I attended school with a girl who dominated our region and came in the top 10 at the annual North American all star meet, and with the exception of 1 or 2 bad races I generally edged her out by around 20 seconds in our 5k races. Men are on average much faster than women.

leech · Apr 22, 2021

time_fly said:
I ran track in college too; trust me at nearly age 50 it's more of a liability than an advantage -- just ask my knees and hips! I don't know their ages vs. yours but unless there's a huge age gap or you are much less fit than they are, you should be faster. When I was in HS I was a decent but not exceptional XC runner. I attended school with a girl who dominated our region and came in the top 10 at the annual North American all star meet, and with the exception of 1 or 2 bad races I generally edged her out by around 20 seconds in our 5k races. Men are on average much faster than women.

Fair enough. I am turning 50 this year, while the other players in this challenge are 12 to 15 years younger. I suppose @BallBag has the edge in speed (and assuredly in power). Will be a fun event to see contrasting styles.

OnTheLine · Apr 22, 2021

Flattered by the call out .... but I am a 3.5C and probably a high 3.5 but I am no singles player. And with the stats on these players ... I may be a league veteran, but I am not in this league.

To the question of ratings spread:

I have played men in singles probably 8-10 times.
I have played several 3.0 guys .. I have never lost.
3.5 guys that are at least middling I am going to make points competitive, they will have to work at it but I will lose and the final score is going to be ugly.

I think in singles you have to have at least a 0.75 spread.

Perhaps more narrow at the lower ends (3.0) and perhaps more narrow at the 4.5 or higher end as well
But in the vast middle of 3.5/4.0 the spread is pretty wide on the singles court.

And yes, anyone goes to Vegas .... hit me up and we will play DOUBLES if you are a male 3.5 or higher!

EddieBrock · Apr 23, 2021

What would you say a former D1 female college player would be on the men's rating? I'm a 4.0/4.5 guy that can keep up with the female player in hitting, but I'd say she'd win every match we play.

Vox Rationis · Apr 23, 2021

EddieBrock said:
What would you say a former D1 female college player would be on the men's rating? I'm a 4.0/4.5 guy that can keep up with the female player in hitting, but I'd say she'd win every match we play.

For reference the weaker women D1 teams usually have UTR ratings in the high 9s. Would take a really strong 4.5 man to challenge them. The average teams’ UTR are usually in the 10s somewhere, so that’s easily 5.0 for men. The top players in D1 women are in the low 11 UTR range, so it’d mostly take a 5.5 guy to take them down.

time_fly · Apr 23, 2021

EddieBrock said:
What would you say a former D1 female college player would be on the men's rating? I'm a 4.0/4.5 guy that can keep up with the female player in hitting, but I'd say she'd win every match we play.

How “former” is former? Most likely she should win unless she is really rusty or in much worse shape than college. Of course GSG did have a very competitive match against a coached “D1 Recruit” on TennisTroll Channel.

EddieBrock · Apr 23, 2021

time_fly said:
How “former” is former? Most likely she should win unless she is really rusty or in much worse shape than college. Of course GSG did have a very competitive match against a coached “D1 Recruit” on TennisTroll Channel.

She still plays a few times a week and trains hard and is probably the most fit person (male or female) I've ever seen. Her footwork is especially impressive.

I can definitely win games and stay close in a match, but winning a set would probably require her to have an off day and for me to play my best.

As good as she is I played a match vs. a D1 guy and the guy is just at another level. Against him I could barely win a game and couldn't keep up rallying with him. I can also get her serves back (sometimes with aggressive returns) whereas with the D1 guy I could barely get my racket on the return.

So you'd say she's probably equivalent to a 5.0 guy?

BallBag · Apr 23, 2021

I'm looking forward to it. I don't know the 4.5 woman but the stats are scary. I played the 4.0 woman in mixed and couldn't out hit her in cross court rally. My only preparation for leech is to string two racquets because one might go over the fence.

sureshs · Apr 23, 2021

What I have noticed is that women who play seriously seem to age better than their male counterparts. As years pass by, the fitness alone helps invert the outcomes of the previous times when the man won, but the man is in peace because he used to win earlier and can point to a bad knee or back as an excuse for losing now.

That is because these women are also into jogging, yoga, zumba. diets and all that.

Vox Rationis · Apr 23, 2021

EddieBrock said:
She still plays a few times a week and trains hard and is probably the most fit person (male or female) I've ever seen. Her footwork is especially impressive.

I can definitely win games and stay close in a match, but winning a set would probably require her to have an off day and for me to play my best.

As good as she is I played a match vs. a D1 guy and the guy is just at another level. Against him I could barely win a game and couldn't keep up rallying with him. I can also get her serves back (sometimes with aggressive returns) whereas with the D1 guy I could barely get my racket on the return.

So you'd say she's probably equivalent to a 5.0 guy?

It 100% depends on what school she went to and if she was a starter. From the sound of it she’s probably equivalent to a 4.5 guy at this stage in her career.

sureshs · Apr 23, 2021

BallBag said:
I'm looking forward to it. I don't know the 4.5 woman but the stats are scary. I played the 4.0 woman in mixed and couldn't out hit her in cross court rally. My only preparation for leech is to string two racquets because one might go over the fence.

From your name I am guessing you are a male

BallBag · Apr 23, 2021

sureshs said:
From your name I am guessing you are a male

Did you just assume my gender?

sureshs · Apr 23, 2021

BallBag said:
Did you just assume my gender?

I am OK with whatever you identify as

5sets · Apr 23, 2021

RyanRF said:
dang 7.20 UTR is a strong 4.0

Calling @Startzel for sandbagger cleanup Aisle 5

BallBag · Apr 23, 2021

5sets said:
Calling @Startzel for sandbagger cleanup Aisle 5

How does one selectively sandbag NTRP and not UTR?

MRfStop · May 6, 2021

EddieBrock said:
What would you say a former D1 female college player would be on the men's rating? I'm a 4.0/4.5 guy that can keep up with the female player in hitting, but I'd say she'd win every match we play.

Definitely a 5.0-5.5 male. I know a former D3 player that would be equivalent to a 5.0 male

Purestriker · May 6, 2021

BallBag said:
How does one selectively sandbag NTRP and not UTR?

UTR updates in real time vs. NTRP normally only updates once a the end of the year (typically in November). Since the USTA decided not to publish year end ratings due to a pandemic, the gap can be large for improving players. Also, I don't think that qualifies as "sandbagging" for C rated players, it is not their fault the USTA made a bad decision.

ChaelAZ · May 6, 2021

5sets said:
Calling @Startzel for sandbagger cleanup Aisle 5

lol. You can image him at home, when sandbagging came up...

Moon Shooter · May 7, 2021

Vox Rationis said:
For reference the weaker women D1 teams usually have UTR ratings in the high 9s. Would take a really strong 4.5 man to challenge them. The average teams’ UTR are usually in the 10s somewhere, so that’s easily 5.0 for men. The top players in D1 women are in the low 11 UTR range, so it’d mostly take a 5.5 guy to take them down.

Here are some statistics:

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I think comparing UTR to NTRP for adult amateur tennis is difficult for various reasons. Some include the NTRP system allows appeals, has different systems for men and women, and only publishes changes if there is a big improvement at single time of the year. For its part UTR doesn't have that many adult amateur tournaments so has a lack of data plus it has some sort of decay factor that seems out of touch with the realities of adult amateur tennis and some other odd things that are not explained.

MRfStop · May 7, 2021

ChaelAZ said:
lol. You can image him at home, when sandbagging came up...

S&V-not_dead_yet · May 7, 2021

MRfStop said:

"Khaaaaaan!"

ChaelAZ · May 8, 2021

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
"Khaaaaaan!"

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