GOAT v BOAT

Do you differentiate between GOAT and BOAT

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 54.8%

  • No

    Votes: 14 45.2%
  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
Wuornos

Wuornos

Professional
When I discuss the GOAT issue I am discussing the 'Greatest' Players of All Time. However, my list of 'Best' players would be different.

To explain this it might be best to look at athletics. Few would disagree that Jesse Owens the sprinter and long jumper from the 1930s was one of the great athletes, and he would have a rightful place in a discussion trying to decide on the GOAT of Track and Field.

However few would consider him able to compete with the 'best' of the present day. The sport has moved on so far. People have more leisure time, the population competing is greater etc. Those competing for the BOAT title of track and field are more likely to come from the modern era.

For me the GOAT and BOAT of men's Tennis is Federer. But in the women's game the GOAT is Martina Navratilova, while the BOAT, by a very narrow margin from Steffi Graff is Justine Henin.

The question is do you differentiate between BOAT and GOAT?
 
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vive le beau jeu !

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
pearls_goat.png
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umm.gif
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boat.gif
 
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M

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
I wonder how much the 'game' would have improved if racquets didn't change from wood. When Mac & Borg were at #1, it wasn't considered absurd to compare them to Laver, Hoad, Budge, etc since the equipment was pretty similar & the pace of shot wasn't that different. Mac even used advice from Budge to help solve Lendl.

When Ginepri, Djokovic, Robredo hit with wood racquets earlier this year, they all said it is a completely different game, & a much slower one, with less spin, margin for error, etc. And they all commented at how heavy the racquets were. So much much for using 'better athletes' as the explanation for the higher level of play of today. If there were wood racquets around today, unforced errors would increase considerably & it would end all this talk(I keep praying for the day of a wood racquet event, maybe even just an exhibition? Doubt it would ever happen, the players probably don't want to be publicly embarassed like that)

And track & field isn't remotely similar to tennis, you are just competing against yourself, no equipment, or opponents directly affecting your play.

It would have been interesting to time Borg in a 40 yard dash or 100 meters, or 1 mile in 1980 (get where I'm going here?) & compare him to how fast the current top 10 are in that aspect. I'd bet he'd blow away everyone except possibly Nadal. Guys like Roddick & Berdych & Gonzalez would probably be humiliated if we found out just how slow they are.

I agree with Fed as the BOAT, just based on his results, dominance, etc, nothing to do with any modern era nonsense.

But Henin over Graf or Navratilova? That's a joke. Even Serena is obviously better than Henin(who didn't get to #1 until Serena got injured)
And I wonder who would come out first in a race, Graf or Henin? Who is the better athlete?
 
Warriorroger

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Moose Malloy said:
I wonder how much the 'game' would have improved if racquets didn't change from wood. When Mac & Borg were at #1, it wasn't considered absurd to compare them to Laver, Hoad, Budge, etc since the equipment was pretty similar & the pace of shot wasn't that different. Mac even used advice from Budge to help solve Lendl.

When Ginepri, Djokovic, Robredo hit with wood racquets earlier this year, they all said it is a completely different game, & a much slower one, with less spin, margin for error, etc. And they all commented at how heavy the racquets were. So much much for using 'better athletes' as the explanation for the higher level of play of today. If there were wood racquets around today, unforced errors would increase considerably & it would end all this talk(I keep praying for the day of a wood racquet event, maybe even just an exhibition? Doubt it would ever happen, the players probably don't want to be publicly embarassed like that)

And track & field isn't remotely similar to tennis, you are just competing against yourself, no equipment, or opponents directly affecting your play.

It would have been interesting to time Borg in a 40 yard dash or 100 meters, or 1 mile in 1980 (get where I'm going here?) & compare him to how fast the current top 10 are in that aspect. I'd bet he'd blow away everyone except possibly Nadal. Guys like Roddick & Berdych & Gonzalez would probably be humiliated if we found out just how slow they are.

I agree with Fed as the BOAT, just based on his results, dominance, etc, nothing to do with any modern era nonsense.

But Henin over Graf or Navratilova? That's a joke. Even Serena is obviously better than Henin(who didn't get to #1 until Serena got injured)
And I wonder who would come out first in a race, Graf or Henin? Who is the better athlete?
Click to expand...

Graf is the best athlete/
 
B

Borat72

Banned
Wuornos said:
When I discuss the GOAT issue I am discussing the 'Greatest' Players of All Time. However, my list of 'Best' players would be different.

To explain this it might be best to look at athletics. Few would disagree that Jesse Owens the sprinter and long jumper from the 1930s was one of the great athletes, and he would have a rightful place in a discussion trying to decide on the GOAT of Track and Field.

However few would consider him able to compete with the 'best' of the present day. The sport has moved on so far. People have more leisure time, the population competing is greater etc. Those competing for the BOAT title of track and field are more likely to come from the modern era.

For me the GOAT and BOAT of men's Tennis is Federer. But in the women's game the GOAT is Martina Navratilova, while the BOAT, by a very narrow margin from Steffi Graff is Justine Henin.
Click to expand...

Henin's peak years are 2003-07.
In those 4.5 years she lost to (among others):

Rubin 3-6 2-6
Sugiyama 2-6 4-6
Garbin 5-7 4-6
Daniilidou 6-7 6-2 5-7
Pennetta 4-6 3-6
Shaughnessy 5-7 4-6
Safarova 6-7 4-6
Bartoli 6-1 5-7 1-6

Do you really think peak Graf would have lost to these players? :D :D :D
 
U

urban

Legend
Don't underrate Jesse Owens. He run 10.2 on 100 m on slow clay, and he had to dig a hole with his shoe, to fix a starting point. On tartan and with a starting machine, he would have certainly clocked 9.8.
 
U

urban

Legend
And he would be still in the final of any long jump event today with his 8,13 m. And that without modern shoes and modern dope.
 
CyBorg

CyBorg

Legend
goat.jpg


vs

boat_bobsboat_1.jpg


Boy, I am torn on this one. Rock beats scissors. Paper beats atomic bomb. Or does cockroach beat atomic bomb?

But atomic bomb beats boat and goat. Chalk this one up to atomic bomb.
 
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A

avmoghe

Semi-Pro
GOAT = The tennis player who has accomplished the most... That title belongs to Rod Laver for his 2 grand slams and 11 total slams (despite being banned from competing in the slams in his prime years).

BOAT = Meaningless term used by fans who think imperfect memories, pictures, youtube highlights, and haphazard text articles give them the ability to see through the evolution of the sport and magically accurately predict how modern players would fare against old greats had they been born a hundred years ago (an impossible task).

In a 100 or 150 years, when the sport's surfaces, rackets, balls, rules change radically, there will be no one on this earth who gleefully claims.. "oh yeah.. that guy named Roger Federer from the 2000's was the BOAT". If people remember Federer at that time, it will be for his accomplishments (same for Laver)... not for playing ability.

So yes, I do differentiate between the two.... since the latter has no meaning whatsoever.
 
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Ripper

Ripper

Hall of Fame
Yes , in the WTA the BOAT is JH, because she has the best technique (and the most beautiful strokes), while the GOAT is SG, because of her accomplishments.
 
J

Jack Romeo

Professional
sheepskin said:
I wonder who has the better backhand
Click to expand...

henin and serena obviously have better backhands than steffi. between henin and serena, henin has more variety and consistency but serena has more power.


sheepskin said:
I wonder how effective steffi's slice would have been on today's high bouncing surfaces
Click to expand...

people forget that 10 of graf's 22 slams were won on "high-bouncing surfaces" - 4 australian and 6 french. a really good slice works no matter what surface you're playing on. just ask federer. henin also has an excellent slice which she uses to great effect on all surfaces. so there's no question that graf's slice would still have been effective today as it was in her prime.

sheepskin said:
I wonder howpowerful her serve would look compared to serena's
Click to expand...

serena's serve is obviously stronger. but even in her prime, steffi never had the fastest serve. players like sukova, novotna and schultz had more speed. but they lacked graf's placement and consistency. so graf's serve was the most effective, and she only gave up about 5mph to the other big servers. it's sort of like federer's today on the men's tour - it's not the strongest but it's the most effective.



going back the topic:
GOAT men - laver (for now, but if federer wins an FO, it'll be federer)
BOAT men - federer (because andre agassi said so)

GOAT women - navratilova (slightly ahead of graf IMHO)
BOAT women - serena (but only when she is 100% fit and motivated)
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
CyBorg said:
Boy, I am torn on this one. Rock beats scissors. Paper beats atomic bomb. Or does cockroach beat atomic bomb?

But atomic bomb beats boat and goat. Chalk this one up to atomic bomb.
Click to expand...

And Letuce... lets not forget letuce that is the one that trashes Both Boat and Goat while shreding Atomic Bomb at moonlight when it rains in april...

Now really... there are so many variables that i would say there are many G.O.A.T.´s and B.O.A.T.'s.
 
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Wuornos

Wuornos

Professional
Moose Malloy said:
I wonder how much the 'game' would have improved if racquets didn't change from wood. When Mac & Borg were at #1, it wasn't considered absurd to compare them to Laver, Hoad, Budge, etc since the equipment was pretty similar & the pace of shot wasn't that different. Mac even used advice from Budge to help solve Lendl.

When Ginepri, Djokovic, Robredo hit with wood racquets earlier this year, they all said it is a completely different game, & a much slower one, with less spin, margin for error, etc. And they all commented at how heavy the racquets were. So much much for using 'better athletes' as the explanation for the higher level of play of today. If there were wood racquets around today, unforced errors would increase considerably & it would end all this talk(I keep praying for the day of a wood racquet event, maybe even just an exhibition? Doubt it would ever happen, the players probably don't want to be publicly embarassed like that)

And track & field isn't remotely similar to tennis, you are just competing against yourself, no equipment, or opponents directly affecting your play.

It would have been interesting to time Borg in a 40 yard dash or 100 meters, or 1 mile in 1980 (get where I'm going here?) & compare him to how fast the current top 10 are in that aspect. I'd bet he'd blow away everyone except possibly Nadal. Guys like Roddick & Berdych & Gonzalez would probably be humiliated if we found out just how slow they are.

I agree with Fed as the BOAT, just based on his results, dominance, etc, nothing to do with any modern era nonsense.

But Henin over Graf or Navratilova? That's a joke. Even Serena is obviously better than Henin(who didn't get to #1 until Serena got injured)
And I wonder who would come out first in a race, Graf or Henin? Who is the better athlete?
Click to expand...

Thanks Moose that's really interesting. Do you think there is any improvement over time of the top pros aside from those achieved through equipment changes, even if only small, or do you think the overall standard is trully chronologically flat?
 
Wuornos

Wuornos

Professional
Jack Romeo said:
henin and serena obviously have better backhands than steffi. between henin and serena, henin has more variety and consistency but serena has more power.




people forget that 10 of graf's 22 slams were won on "high-bouncing surfaces" - 4 australian and 6 french. a really good slice works no matter what surface you're playing on. just ask federer. henin also has an excellent slice which she uses to great effect on all surfaces. so there's no question that graf's slice would still have been effective today as it was in her prime.



serena's serve is obviously stronger. but even in her prime, steffi never had the fastest serve. players like sukova, novotna and schultz had more speed. but they lacked graf's placement and consistency. so graf's serve was the most effective, and she only gave up about 5mph to the other big servers. it's sort of like federer's today on the men's tour - it's not the strongest but it's the most effective.



going back the topic:
GOAT men - laver (for now, but if federer wins an FO, it'll be federer)
BOAT men - federer (because andre agassi said so)

GOAT women - navratilova (slightly ahead of graf IMHO)
BOAT women - serena (but only when she is 100% fit and motivated)
Click to expand...

Thanks Jack. Nice choices. you obviously do differentiate between GAT and BOAT.
 
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E

Einstand

New User
Wuornos said:
For me the GOAT and BOAT of men's Tennis is Federer. But in the women's game the GOAT is Martina Navratilova, while the BOAT, by a very narrow margin from Steffi Graff is Justine Henin.

The question is do you differentiate between BOAT and GOAT?
Click to expand...

MEN:
Goat is Rod Laver
Boat is Federer over Sampras by virtue of better clay ability, defense, and ability to weather a super-hot opponent.

WOMEN:
Goat is Steffi Graf.
Boat is Justine Henin. She should have had a CYGS by now if not for her bouts of panic attacks in the middle of matches (even when winning comfortably like the two matches with the Williams sisters at this year's USO). She may still win the Grand Slam next year.
 
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