Thedesertfox
Professional
As usual
Greatest losers in Grand Slams (ATP)
- Thread starter AO13
- Start date
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
The big four are a total failure. We are so lucky that it won’t be long until they all have finally retired, so we can start to appreciate the growing talents of Zverev, Tsitsipas and Medvedev.
Thedesertfox
Professional
Finny thing is , they are immense talents. Who so far have not fulfilled their potential
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Every night before I fall asleep, I make myself that question.
Entername
Professional
Lebron that low?
LeBron anywhere outside top 3 is a crime at this point lol and I'm anything but a fan of his; this is equivalent to people putting one of the big 3 outside the top 5 in tennis' all time list. Also as sad as his death was, Kobe is overrated asf career-wise, he's #10 at the very best
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
This is my favorite thing Kobe fans do. Attach themselves to Jordan, and hang on for dear life. The level of disrespect to MJ to make a false equivalency saying that he was everything Jordan was is just ridiculous… MJ would never and has never in his entire career had a finals series like Kobe did in 04 or 08. Especially 04, when he had the “stacked” team of Payton, Malone, Shaq etc and basically shot his team out of the series putting up 34% from the field. (If you missed my point here, I know they were all past their prime, but I constantly hear about how Wade/Bosh were incredible in 2014 despite being either injured or hobbled in a way that made them shadows of their best selves… same with Kyrie and Love in 2015). As bad as LeBron was in 2011, and he was horrific, Kobe’s 04 is hardly any better, and perhaps even worse given that it culminated in Shaq and Phil leaving and him becoming persona non grata around the league for the next 2 years. No Kobe fan ever brings that one up despite constantly talking about 2011… wonder why.
Nor do they bring up the fact that, for all the talk of Kobe’s 5-2 finals record, he choked a 3-1 lead before it was cool in 06 and lost semi-winnable series 07, 11, and 12… and that LeBron was clearly better vs Boston in the 08 ECF than Kobe was in the 08 Finals , with a young Bron actually going toe to toe with Boston and nearly beating them in game 7 behind an inspired 45 points while Kobe struggled mightily in that finals. Or that Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher and Metta World Peace… NOT Kobe… made the clutch game winning shots in the 09/10 Finals.
Or wait, is it only LeBron who isn’t allowed to have his teammates make big shots, as I constantly hear about the 13/16 rings?
I really do respect Kob and think he’s consistently underrated by blog writers and statheads who don’t understand the era. The 1998-2013 era he played in was awful for scoring it was basically the dark ages - pace slowed down to glacial levels, poor understanding of spacing, transition from hand checking and illegal defense making defenses juggernauts then. Kob is undoubtedly one of the best stories and best mentalities to play the game. As a fully formed basketball player he had everything and was a great defender to boot. I also think he was extremely unlucky with the Achilles injury and likely would’ve had great longevity and maybe even the scoring record without it. And in this era, with all the stat inflation, why couldn’t he have gotten 40 a night. He was unstoppable when on, and I’ll even concede that Kobe at his absolute best is tougher to defend than LeBron at his.
I just wish you could accept that LeBron has had an amazing career, is also a complete player, and has proven his clutch chops time and time again, perhaps even more than Kobe in playoff situations. I don’t even dislike Kobe, he is underrated all time.. you just have a ridiculous hate for LeBron which makes you look stupid and biased.
AO13
Hall of Fame
Ok, pretty nice post, can't argue with it. I don't hate LeBron, maybe I was just trolling too much in one of those days when we had a talk about it, so you've got the wrong idea. Also, it is what it is - to me, in my eyes, Jordan is the GOAT, Kobe is just below him. LeBron is an obvious top 10, maybe he'll finish in top 5 in my book. It's okay if you or anyone else thinks LeBron is the GOAT, or Kobe, Curry, Jordan, whoever. People have right to have personal opinion which differs from mine or any others.
We should all just enjoy in greatness and the game. The same thing applies for Big 3 wars.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Did you see Luka last night? That kid right there may challenge the all time greats when he’s done… what a talent. I’m just glad that basketball is in great hands.
Thedesertfox
Professional
Thanks for the tip mate. I earned 30 bucks
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I agree about Lebron and maybe Kobe is a bit overrated hy some of his fans but #10? I can't see that one. He's in the top 4 in both regular season scoring leaders and playoff scoring leaders, just for starters. I would have him higher than that.
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Sadly the real answer is LeBron James
I think Jordan has him beat officially now. Before there was always the possibility of a resurgence but not anymore. Bron will never win that 5th title
Rather misguided take as basketball is a team sport. LeBron's longevity has Michael brutally dwarfed.
RS
Bionic Poster
Mike Tyson isn't a top 10 heavyweight according to many boxing fans.
AO13
Hall of Fame
Funny enough, I said to my friends when he got to NBA from Real Madrid that when it's all said and done, Luka Doncic might be the greatest of all time. And boy he is fullfilling his destiny, but he needs rings. Many of them.
It's tough to say he's the GOAT, but not even in top 10? Nah, the man was a certified killer in the ring. Insane work ethics, scary hits.
RS
Bionic Poster
It's common in the boxing circles honestly. He is ranked anywhere from top 3 to top 15 most the time
Nadal is 2-4 in AO, Djokovic is 3-6 at UO. Nadal had to thank the Morrison government for the 2nd one.
Proportionally they are the same, but I would take the 3 victories! And Nadal was worst at Wimb, he hasn't made the finals there since 2011!
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BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
What about Lendl, who is 8-11 in slam finals? He lost more than he won.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Fed lost four Wimbledon finals, but so did Boris, so they co-own that record.
Tennfan123
Legend
Rios
Pheasant
Legend
Ok. I'm switching this up a little bit and going with the following:
AO: Andy Murray- popular answer, since 5 finals losses in a 7 year span says it all.
FO: John McEnroe. He was up 2-0 against his arch rival and even held a 4-2 lead in the 4th set, but couldn't win. Mac was 42-0 that year. heading into that match. In his last clay final, he spanked Lendl 6-2, 6-3, or something insane like that. I believe that he had recently said that he had more talent in his little pinky than Lendl had in his entire body. Big mistake, Mac. Sometimes, when you rile up a bull, you get the horns.
WI: Lendl. He wanted this title so badly, that he skipped 2 entire clay seasons just to practice serving and volleying. He sacrificed more weeks at #1. That still didn't work. 1990 looked like the year, when he won Queens, which is when he crushed McEnroe and Becker in straight sets in the semis and finals respectively.
WTF: This goes to Nadal. You'd expect a 22-slam champion to win at least one of these. But that never panned out.
Olympics: Federer: I'm still blown away that he never won a gold medal there. 2012 seemed like the perfect opportunity.
AO: Andy Murray- popular answer, since 5 finals losses in a 7 year span says it all.
FO: John McEnroe. He was up 2-0 against his arch rival and even held a 4-2 lead in the 4th set, but couldn't win. Mac was 42-0 that year. heading into that match. In his last clay final, he spanked Lendl 6-2, 6-3, or something insane like that. I believe that he had recently said that he had more talent in his little pinky than Lendl had in his entire body. Big mistake, Mac. Sometimes, when you rile up a bull, you get the horns.
WI: Lendl. He wanted this title so badly, that he skipped 2 entire clay seasons just to practice serving and volleying. He sacrificed more weeks at #1. That still didn't work. 1990 looked like the year, when he won Queens, which is when he crushed McEnroe and Becker in straight sets in the semis and finals respectively.
WTF: This goes to Nadal. You'd expect a 22-slam champion to win at least one of these. But that never panned out.
Olympics: Federer: I'm still blown away that he never won a gold medal there. 2012 seemed like the perfect opportunity.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Federer for all of them. What a loser.
DIMI_D
Hall of Fame
Do you think Giannis will be a top 10 or even 5 all time player by the time he’s career is over?
Novak at the USO is a shocker! Rosewall lost 2 Wimbledon, 1 FO and I USO final in Open Era between ages 33-40. He also lost 2 Wimbledon finals and 1 US as an amateur.
AO13
Hall of Fame
Didn't include WTF and Olympics, but sure, why not count them in too.
For WTF it is indeed an obvious one, Rafael Nadal.
For the Olympics, maybe that one is also on Djokovic, as we know just how much he wants that trophy and how did the defeats crush him there emotionally, especially against Del Potro in Rio 2016.
Thedesertfox
Professional
Yeah cause he played in the first golden era of tennis. On the other hand he has positive record against other ATGs. Against McEnroe, Connors, Edberg etc
Thedesertfox
Professional
Be was gassed out after the epic with DELPO
Fiero425
Legend
I was surprised Novak mentioned anywhere since he's won at least 2 at every event! That's crazy! Borg's a fave of mines, but he blew it at the USO on all 3 surfaces!
Fiero425
Legend
I think bringing up The Olympics won't ever register on my meter! I'm no fan of pros invading an Amateur sport like the OG's! Just because other events have gone pro like NBA, MLB, & NHL doesn't justify tennis piling on as The Pros have enough going on, normally complaining how long the season is! I never want to hear that BS ever again as the Laver Cup now records the H2H's in this glorified exhibition! The YEC is an anual event that's been around since the 70's and the worst players have stolen a title! Nadal with "0" titles while Fedovic have 6 each is a real embarrassment!
Fiero425
Legend
Like Martina Navratilova & Djokovic, Ivan Lendl had several waves of players to deal with staying at the top his entire career! From the start it was Borg, Connors, & McEnroe! Then along came Edberg, Becker, & Wilander; finishing off with Agassi, Sampras, Chang, & Courier! It's a wonder Lendl had such a "Djokovic-like" career winning all 9 Masters events (at the time), and was missing only a Wimbledon title with so many "S & V specialist" out there! He did well to make 4 SF and 2 Finals! Just OTTH! Probably missing other top players that could influence the records!
Federev
Legend
It seems like the OP is going for guys who came close. Nadal’s wipe outs at SW19 were legendary, but not cause he was close.
Fiero425
Legend
He just couldn't steal even one! Andy was really embarrassed by Djokovic over the years with Nole owning both Fedray "down under!" I seem to recall Djokovic have a run of 9 games in the AO Final in 2015 which continued to a 5 game run in the final in 2016! It was eerie! It's amazing how Novak kept Fedalray from winning so many many of these events for over 14 years!
triforce defender
Semi-Pro
Curry is better than both Lebron and KobeDude you just said that LeBron had to have a superstar alongside him to win all his rings; unlike Kobe the “killer” who was clearly the 2nd best player behind the Alpha in Shaq. This is why Kobe won zero finals MVPs for his first 3 rings. I could be 5 years old having never watched basketball before, and you’d still be wrong
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Are you trolling mr. triforce defender?
triforce defender
Semi-Pro
No. Curry has changed the game like no player since Kareem!
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Curry's a great player and he may actually be top 10 all time but to say he's better than LeBron is a joke
triforce defender
Semi-Pro
Lebron never revolutionized the game like Curry did.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Oversimplification. A lot of the 3 point shooting revolution gets attributed to Curry but it's a lot more complex than that - teams were already trending towards shooting more 3s, pace and space, and especially roster construction with the emphasis on 3/D was already ramping up in the early 2010s.
I'd actually say what LeBron did in Miami with the 'point forward' drive and kick to shooters is a much more replicated formula - Harden, Butler, Luka, Simmons, etc. all following this positionless point forward template. I mean who really plays like Curry in the NBA? Plus, the real revolution of the Warriors was the death lineup with Draymond Green at the 5, small ball predicated on spacing and 3 point shooting. I really do respect Steph but this whole argument about 'revolutionizing basketball' always feels flawed to me.
If you remember, Daryl Morey and Harden actually were the first to take such volume 3 point shooting. They arguably revolutionized the sport before Curry's Warriors under Kerr did.
Curry deserves credit of course and he did take the game to new level with his GOAT shooting and off ball movement. But I wouldn't call him better than Lebron whatsoever.
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triforce defender
Semi-Pro
Harden's Rockets switched to volume 3 point shooting after the Warriors already won a championship.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
What are you talking about? Do you even follow basketball? This happened in 12-13 and 14-15 aka before Steph won a MVP or title. Morey noticed this before Mark Jackson did. the Rockets shot more 3s than the Warriors did in basically every season from 13-18 anyways.
triforce defender
Semi-Pro
But the Rockets of those years failed. The Warriors were the first championship team that relied primarily on the 3-point shot.
As I said, 3-6 at UO for Djoker is better than 2-4 at AO for Nadal! Moreover, Nadal and the field breathed a sigh of relief when Djokovic was barred.
And there's another slam in which he has just 2 wins. Djokovic's 2 wins at RG in the era of Nadal is better than Federer's one, especially since he didn't cause Nadal to lose.
Djokovic's 2 wins over Nadal at RG is infinitely better than Federer's zero wins.
And there's another slam in which he has just 2 wins. Djokovic's 2 wins at RG in the era of Nadal is better than Federer's one, especially since he didn't cause Nadal to lose.
Djokovic's 2 wins over Nadal at RG is infinitely better than Federer's zero wins.
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TheFifthSet
Legend
Ranking Wilt ahead of LeBron is a dead giveaway. All of the criticism that has been levelled at LeBron applied tenfold more to Wilt…who also wasn’t productive for anywhere close to as long as Bron, and his teams, rather than cratering after he left, remained competitive.
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
AO Agassi should have played it his whole career and he’d have maybe 7 or 8
RG Federer good enough to win 4 or 5 RG
Wimbledon Sampras close losses to groan and Federer in 92 and 01 would see Sampras have 9 Wimbledons. Both matches Pete got several bad line calls on huge points. Wow imagine winning 9 Wimbledons in the strongest Grass court era ever! He could have done. Would have been 9 in 10 years
USO Agassi again and Djokovic a close 2nd
YEC Edberg
RG Federer good enough to win 4 or 5 RG
Wimbledon Sampras close losses to groan and Federer in 92 and 01 would see Sampras have 9 Wimbledons. Both matches Pete got several bad line calls on huge points. Wow imagine winning 9 Wimbledons in the strongest Grass court era ever! He could have done. Would have been 9 in 10 years
USO Agassi again and Djokovic a close 2nd
YEC Edberg
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
I'd say that Federer more than makes up for it by winning it eight times.
TheFifthSet
Legend
Agree with 95% of this but LeBron was not good against Boston in ‘08 despite salvaging things in Game 7.
Games 1 and 2: shot 8/42 (19%) and turned the ball over 17 times in two games they lost by a combined 20 points. Horrific stuff.
Games 3 and 4: average performances, the Cavs as a whole play strong team ball especially on the defensive side of things.
He picked things up from games 5-7 but the first half had so many historically awful stretches including two games which LeBron all but single-handedly shot them out of.
Fiero425
Legend
That's the only thing Bron has on any of those past greats! He started sooner, not going to college and has been a physical marvel by holding up for over 20 years! Jabbar, Chamberlain, & Russell will all be greater as they had to deal with football tactics on the court, taking hits that would suspend players today!
Azure
G.O.A.T.
Now I know why sleeplessness haunts you.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
He was really bad in Game 1 I remember. This is the great flaw in the LeBron matrix, at least before that unbelievable 09 playoffs, you could pack the paint and help aggressively and, just like Spurs 07, if you had elite defense LeBron couldn’t do what he wanted. His 35% jump shooting metrics are ultimately what prevented him from being truly unstoppable. Still, I think you’re underrating him a bit, considering that he was genuinely brilliant in game 5 and 7, and in game 6 he basically powered through defensive coverage constantly. If you look at stats across his career he always picks things up from games 4-7 and this series was no different (as was the one vs Detroit in 2006, I might add)
We have to remember that was 23 yr old Bron in his 5th year and the Cavs STILL didn’t have a ball handler or secondary playmaker outside of Delonte West… who had awful TO numbers and couldn’t get anywhere either, so the entire playmaking load fell on him. This isn’t excusing shooting 35% for the series or whatever it was, but I weight the elimination game performances extremely highly and he killed it. 2010 was the bad performance imo.
Anyway, this isn’t exactly MJ vs the 86 Celtics stuff, but it helps his case compared to Kobe. As for Jordan - I think that argument is sadly ending in MJ’s favor.
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