Should the USTA self-rate / DQ rules be tweaked?

time_fly

time_fly

Hall of Fame
Those of us who are USTA regulars know the struggle with new players. Some new players or their captains are intentionally cheating on self-ratings, lying about playing experience, trying to manipulate match scores, etc. But I think in the overall scheme of USTA that's actually rare, at least outside of some specific repeat-offender captains. Instead, both the captain and new player want to select a level where the newbie will get into lineups and be successful. Overrating a player makes for a very bad experience, so new players are often a little underrated. DQing newbies who are genuinely uncertain about their level is unwarranted and creates a bad experience for the player as well. For that reason, the DQ threshold seems to be set high at the typical league entry levels like 3.0 and 3.5 because the computer can't easily distinguish between cheating, unintentional underestimation, and legitimate player improvement. But on the other hand, there seems to be a swell of players who are in the league for 1 to 3 years and their rating hasn't caught up with them. This is especially common in mixed doubles. The players may not be full-on cheating, but when new people jump in and win a huge number of matches immediately it creates a negative experience for established league members. They may get suspicious of cheating and perhaps feel pressured to recruit their own new "ringers" to compete.

I think there should be a middle ground between throwing down the quick, harsh DQ and letting someone rack up, for example, 20+ wins and 1 or 2 losses in their first year or two. I would propose that the three strike DQ rule remain as it is, but there should be another level with a lower threshold that applies over a larger number of matches. If you get say 5 or 6 "strikes" at the lower threshold, you should get moved up without any other penalties even if it's the middle of the season. This should only apply to "A" and "S" rated players just like the DQ rule of course.

Thoughts?
 
WYK

WYK

Hall of Fame
In the immortal words of Bill ****** Murray, 'It just doesn't matter!'

I think what most people do not understand is bracket racing.

Any time you are not in an open competition, you are bracket racing. This means you aren't competing against anyone other than yourself.
When you win, you beat yourself. When you lose, you lose to yourself. A win means very little in bracket racing. It's an arbitrary situation set up for arbitrary 'competition'.
It's there so that people who have no chance in open competition can feel like they are competing.

The closest thing to this in tennis is usually handicapped team tennis. The second closest is USTA leagues. Which, in practice, is handicapped tennis by another name.

In USTA ranked competition the brackets are so narrow that you are not really competing. If someone is not ranked 'correctly', AKA in a more 'open' manner, people become upset.
It exists because they want to be competitive, but they aren't actually able to compete. Thus, you are not competing at all. USTA wins mean little, really.
If you want competition, you would welcome someone ranked above you to play you. That's a fight on your hands then.
In other words, it's a tale that is full of sound and fury - signifying nothing.

People wonder why they are stuck in their brackets, as well. It is because you are not playing people who are markedly better than yourself on a regular basis. You are never really pushed to be better.
You are groomed to be in your bracket. It's one of the reasons so many tennis stars had professional parents - they had to play someone better than themselves since they first picked up a racquet.

If you want to feel like you are accomplishing something, enter your club open competitions - especially if it is an inter club open.
If you want just want the feeling of competition, bracket race, er play USTA leagues.

But, if you want to actually compete in USTA leagues - you will bend the rules as much as possible and rank your players in a manner that benefits your team.
At this point, it is actually competition more similar to college tennis and not bracket racing, and most good coaches know this. At this point, you are actually competing.
Which, of course, is not allowed.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
time_fly said:
Those of us who are USTA regulars know the struggle with new players. Some new players or their captains are intentionally cheating on self-ratings, lying about playing experience, trying to manipulate match scores, etc. But I think in the overall scheme of USTA that's actually rare, at least outside of some specific repeat-offender captains. Instead, both the captain and new player want to select a level where the newbie will get into lineups and be successful. Overrating a player makes for a very bad experience, so new players are often a little underrated. DQing newbies who are genuinely uncertain about their level is unwarranted and creates a bad experience for the player as well. For that reason, the DQ threshold seems to be set high at the typical league entry levels like 3.0 and 3.5 because the computer can't easily distinguish between cheating, unintentional underestimation, and legitimate player improvement. But on the other hand, there seems to be a swell of players who are in the league for 1 to 3 years and their rating hasn't caught up with them. This is especially common in mixed doubles. The players may not be full-on cheating, but when new people jump in and win a huge number of matches immediately it creates a negative experience for established league members. They may get suspicious of cheating and perhaps feel pressured to recruit their own new "ringers" to compete.

I think there should be a middle ground between throwing down the quick, harsh DQ and letting someone rack up, for example, 20+ wins and 1 or 2 losses in their first year or two. I would propose that the three strike DQ rule remain as it is, but there should be another level with a lower threshold that applies over a larger number of matches. If you get say 5 or 6 "strikes" at the lower threshold, you should get moved up without any other penalties even if it's the middle of the season. This should only apply to "A" and "S" rated players just like the DQ rule of course.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Simple. Instead of calling it a DQ, call it a promotion. Or a graduation.
 
P

PK6

Semi-Pro
2.5/3.0 for those who’ve never played-4.0 no matter how long you’ve not played high school or college.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls

FuzzyYellowBalls

Legend
WYK said:
In the immortal words of Bill ****** Murray, 'It just doesn't matter!'

I think what most people do not understand is bracket racing.

Any time you are not in an open competition, you are bracket racing. This means you aren't competing against anyone other than yourself.
When you win, you beat yourself. When you lose, you lose to yourself. A win means very little in bracket racing. It's an arbitrary situation set up for arbitrary 'competition'.
It's there so that people who have no chance in open competition can feel like they are competing.

The closest thing to this in tennis is usually handicapped team tennis. The second closest is USTA leagues. Which, in practice, is handicapped tennis by another name.

In USTA ranked competition the brackets are so narrow that you are not really competing. If someone is not ranked 'correctly', AKA in a more 'open' manner, people become upset.
It exists because they want to be competitive, but they aren't actually able to compete. Thus, you are not competing at all. USTA wins mean little, really.
If you want competition, you would welcome someone ranked above you to play you. That's a fight on your hands then.
In other words, it's a tale that is full of sound and fury - signifying nothing.

People wonder why they are stuck in their brackets, as well. It is because you are not playing people who are markedly better than yourself on a regular basis. You are never really pushed to be better.
You are groomed to be in your bracket. It's one of the reasons so many tennis stars had professional parents - they had to play someone better than themselves since they first picked up a racquet.

If you want to feel like you are accomplishing something, enter your club open competitions - especially if it is an inter club open.
If you want just want the feeling of competition, bracket race, er play USTA leagues.

But, if you want to actually compete in USTA leagues - you will bend the rules as much as possible and rank your players in a manner that benefits your team.
At this point, it is actually competition more similar to college tennis and not bracket racing, and most good coaches know this. At this point, you are actually competing.
Which, of course, is not allowed.
Click to expand...
Well said, not entirely sure about theast paragraph as far as bending rules, but I may be misunderstanding.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls

FuzzyYellowBalls

Legend
It's a tough problem to solve, you have captains willing to spend hours upon hours per week competing off the court for the best advantage "within" the rules, even spending money. Rules changes seem to be a step behind because captains make usta their full or part time job.
 
T

TennisOTM

Professional
I think if a self-rated player finishes a league season or playoff round with a dynamic rating into the next level (even barely), they should just be immediately promoted to the next level. Not as harsh as a DQ because they were allowed to finish that season or playoff round and no match results were nullified.

I suppose this system could effectively DQ a team from the next round of playoffs if they lose too many players to "promotion." Maybe that's justified, or else a more lenient alternative would be to allow those captains to pull replacement C-rated players from non-playoff teams in their district.
 
HBK4life

HBK4life

Hall of Fame
PK6 said:
As I’ve said many times-get rid of self ratings!!!
Click to expand...
This.

USTA should have some sort of system where they independently evaluate players.

We have strong 4.5 players here getting murdered by S rated “4.5s” from out of the area. It’s discouraging. I know of two teams that have just stopped competing because it is a waste of time. I am not there yet but I’m getting close.
 
T

TennisOTM

Professional
HBK4life said:
This.

USTA should have some sort of system where they independently evaluate players.

We have strong 4.5 players here getting murdered by S rated “4.5s” from out of the area. It’s discouraging. I know of two teams that have just stopped competing because it is a waste of time. I am not there yet but I’m getting close.
Click to expand...
What sort of independent evaluation do you suggest?

If the S rates are murdering high-end 4.5 players so regularly, they should get DQ'ed via the current system.
 
HBK4life

HBK4life

Hall of Fame
TennisOTM said:
What sort of independent evaluation do you suggest?

If the S rates are murdering high-end 4.5 players so regularly, they should get DQ'ed via the current system.
Click to expand...
Good question. I would say have club pros do the evaluation but we have pros that play on these teams. I know one that rated a clear 4.0 woman a 3.5 so she could play on a certain usta team.


Maybe submit a video of playing/hitting to usta. We are in the digital age after all.
 
J

JordanWinning

Rookie
HBK4life said:
Good question. I would say have club pros do the evaluation but we have pros that play on these teams. I know one that rated a clear 4.0 woman a 3.5 so she could play on a certain usta team.


Maybe submit a video of playing/hitting to usta. We are in the digital age after all.
Click to expand...
There’s an AI tennis app that compares your swing against pros, grades it, then tell you how to improve it. Seems like an AI trained to watch a match with a known commodity (4.5c) could grade/evaluate the other player.

One struggle with that would be that USTA says within a rating, there should be 0 & 0 scores. I think ultimately the system doesn’t work until there’s more numbers to be. Especially when you consider that nothing below a 2.5 exists, and in most areas, 5.0 doesn’t exist.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
time_fly said:
Those of us who are USTA regulars know the struggle with new players. Some new players or their captains are intentionally cheating on self-ratings, lying about playing experience, trying to manipulate match scores, etc. But I think in the overall scheme of USTA that's actually rare, at least outside of some specific repeat-offender captains. Instead, both the captain and new player want to select a level where the newbie will get into lineups and be successful. Overrating a player makes for a very bad experience, so new players are often a little underrated. DQing newbies who are genuinely uncertain about their level is unwarranted and creates a bad experience for the player as well. For that reason, the DQ threshold seems to be set high at the typical league entry levels like 3.0 and 3.5 because the computer can't easily distinguish between cheating, unintentional underestimation, and legitimate player improvement. But on the other hand, there seems to be a swell of players who are in the league for 1 to 3 years and their rating hasn't caught up with them. This is especially common in mixed doubles. The players may not be full-on cheating, but when new people jump in and win a huge number of matches immediately it creates a negative experience for established league members. They may get suspicious of cheating and perhaps feel pressured to recruit their own new "ringers" to compete.

I think there should be a middle ground between throwing down the quick, harsh DQ and letting someone rack up, for example, 20+ wins and 1 or 2 losses in their first year or two. I would propose that the three strike DQ rule remain as it is, but there should be another level with a lower threshold that applies over a larger number of matches. If you get say 5 or 6 "strikes" at the lower threshold, you should get moved up without any other penalties even if it's the middle of the season. This should only apply to "A" and "S" rated players just like the DQ rule of course.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
What happened to those good old days of rating clinics ? where 2 pro confirm your rating after watching you play for 30 min.......... Actually come to think of it, it was 15 min session
 
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J

jimmy8

Legend
If we did a lie detector test on every USTA player and captain today, and required one for every new player, then maybe you could have fair play without sandbagging and bad line calling. All bad line callers would be banned.
 
T

TennisOTM

Professional
I have a hard time seeing how any observational evaluation, in-person or video, would be better than just using match results. We've all seen players with good-looking strokes get crushed by players with ugly-looking strokes. It happens so often that it's a constant discussion topic on these forums.

There's a reason the old observation-based rater system was done away with - it was terrible. I'm not saying the current system is great - the DQ system based on match results could be much improved, but abandoning it altogether would 100 times worse, I think.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Then took your monies. Those things were so silly, like hit this many groundstrokes in a row or something , I did them when I was 6 years old I think, then not much more after that.
Click to expand...
Actually , the Pros had to be real master USPTA pros or have played college or pro level tennis before to be able to do the rating clinic. and you have to hit all the shots ,, groundies, volleys Serves and play the points out. and it was free.

Also one of the Pro that rated me was well known professional player that had retired long time ago. I don't want to mention his name because most people know him from his playing days, you would recognize the name
 
HBK4life

HBK4life

Hall of Fame
TennisOTM said:
I have a hard time seeing how any observational evaluation, in-person or video, would be better than just using match results. We've all seen players with good-looking strokes get crushed by players with ugly-looking strokes. It happens so often that it's a constant discussion topic on these forums.

There's a reason the old observation-based rater system was done away with - it was terrible. I'm not saying the current system is great - the DQ system based on match results could be much improved, but abandoning it altogether would 100 times worse, I think.
Click to expand...
I can’t trust match results anymore. I have seen too many tank jobs.
 
HBK4life

HBK4life

Hall of Fame
TennisOTM said:
I that what the self-rated guys in your 4.5 league are doing?
Click to expand...
They sure are. The C guys are as well to stay there. All levels really. Both sexes. It has gotten out of hand. So many people have quit. It’s just the same people over and over.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls

FuzzyYellowBalls

Legend
Nostradamus said:
Actually , the Pros had to be real master USPTA pros or have played college or pro level tennis before to be able to do the rating clinic. and you have to hit all the shots ,, groundies, volleys Serves and play the points out. and it was free.

Also one of the Pro that rated me was well known professional player that had retired long time ago. I don't want to mention his name because most people know him from his playing days, you would recognize the name
Click to expand...
:)
Yes, indeed, all pros are like that where I started my tennis journey.

You got a good deal, the norm was they charged a fee relative to their hourly rate because court time is court time.
 
cks

cks

Hall of Fame
HBK4life said:
I have seen too many tank jobs.
Click to expand...
I remember @schmke posting his match game analysis looking for players that "might be" tanking matches. Maybe the USTA computer could be configure to look for these anomalies.

I've also seen players "tank" or completely check out of a match, once their opponent broke them.
 
schmke

schmke

Legend
cks said:
I remember @schmke posting his match game analysis looking for players that "might be" tanking matches. Maybe the USTA computer could be configure to look for these anomalies.

I've also seen players "tank" or completely check out of a match, once their opponent broke them.
Click to expand...
Yes, you can do things algorithmically to identify outlier results and treat them accordingly. It isn't trivial to do, and adding this sort of detection to an algorithm just fosters more nuanced gaming of the system, but I do think it could help. I doubt the USTA will do anything as any ratings investment they are making is in WTN, and I obviously don't know for sure but I doubt it has an anti-tanking component in it.
 
J

J D

Semi-Pro
I’m not a ratings guru like some of you, but it seems to me that you won’t get rid of the clever gamers until you do analysis by wins in addition to expected results.

I knew a 4.0 captain that was 10-0 at 4.0 and 6-2 at 4.5. The guy was for a strong 4.5. Yet, TR had him at 3.92. Both his 4.0 and 4.5 teams went to playoffs. He still wasn’t bumped the next year. He knew how to manage results, in addition to being best friends with the LC.

If you win 80% of your matches against at level opposition or 50% against opponents at a level up, you should get bumped up, IMO, regardless of the score line.
 
vandre

vandre

Hall of Fame
i had a bit of a different experience when i registered for my first usta league. the survey asked "have you ever played college tennis?" i answered "yes" because i was a walk-on at a d3 school in the 90s who hadn't touched a racquet in 10 years. well, survey said, you cannot register for a 3.5 league. luckily i had a couple of teaching pros who had been working me who could say "he's not that good" so i was able to get into a 3.5 league. my record in 3.5 league play clearly demonstrates that i am no "world-beater"...
 
D

drivophd

Rookie
I happened across the profile of a player recently with carefully managed 3-set wins in every men’s doubles match this season along with a single 0-6, 1-6 loss in singles.

Then you look at his mixed & combo record from the past year where nearly every result is a dominant straight set win.

You may or may not be shocked to hear that this is a player who has gone to nationals many times as a 3.5 who is now doing the same at 3.0.
 
J

JordanWinning

Rookie
J D said:
I’m not a ratings guru like some of you, but it seems to me that you won’t get rid of the clever gamers until you do analysis by wins in addition to expected results.

I knew a 4.0 captain that was 10-0 at 4.0 and 6-2 at 4.5. The guy was for a strong 4.5. Yet, TR had him at 3.92. Both his 4.0 and 4.5 teams went to playoffs. He still wasn’t bumped the next year. He knew how to manage results, in addition to being best friends with the LC.

If you win 80% of your matches against at level opposition or 50% against opponents at a level up, you should get bumped up, IMO, regardless of the score line.
Click to expand...
I would agree with this premise, but again, a high 4.0 is supposed to bagel a low 4.0. When a rating is that wide it makes bumps very challenging. Especially when you mix in the difficulty of dynamic ratings and players playing up. How many of those 4.5 wins were against guys like him that are playing up? I agree it definitely sounds like this dude should be bumped, but when USTA throws as wide a net as they do, it makes it difficult to have people properly rated.
 
Moveforwardalways

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
WYK said:
In the immortal words of Bill ****** Murray, 'It just doesn't matter!'

I think what most people do not understand is bracket racing.

Any time you are not in an open competition, you are bracket racing. This means you aren't competing against anyone other than yourself.
When you win, you beat yourself. When you lose, you lose to yourself. A win means very little in bracket racing. It's an arbitrary situation set up for arbitrary 'competition'.
It's there so that people who have no chance in open competition can feel like they are competing.

The closest thing to this in tennis is usually handicapped team tennis. The second closest is USTA leagues. Which, in practice, is handicapped tennis by another name.

In USTA ranked competition the brackets are so narrow that you are not really competing. If someone is not ranked 'correctly', AKA in a more 'open' manner, people become upset.
It exists because they want to be competitive, but they aren't actually able to compete. Thus, you are not competing at all. USTA wins mean little, really.
If you want competition, you would welcome someone ranked above you to play you. That's a fight on your hands then.
In other words, it's a tale that is full of sound and fury - signifying nothing.

People wonder why they are stuck in their brackets, as well. It is because you are not playing people who are markedly better than yourself on a regular basis. You are never really pushed to be better.
You are groomed to be in your bracket. It's one of the reasons so many tennis stars had professional parents - they had to play someone better than themselves since they first picked up a racquet.

If you want to feel like you are accomplishing something, enter your club open competitions - especially if it is an inter club open.
If you want just want the feeling of competition, bracket race, er play USTA leagues.

But, if you want to actually compete in USTA leagues - you will bend the rules as much as possible and rank your players in a manner that benefits your team.
At this point, it is actually competition more similar to college tennis and not bracket racing, and most good coaches know this. At this point, you are actually competing.
Which, of course, is not allowed.
Click to expand...
It is patently ridiculous to have a 35+ year old who is coming back into the game after 15 years off or learning the game from scratch compete in open level tournaments to get “true” competition. What you are proposing is idealistic and impractical.

We are talking about league tennis here. The reason players with 3.5 and 4.0 level athletic ceilings do not play open tournaments is not because they are “scared of real competition” or whatever you are implying.
 
Cashman

Cashman

Hall of Fame
WYK said:
If you want to feel like you are accomplishing something, enter your club open competitions - especially if it is an inter club open.
Click to expand...
This is bad advice for most people, who would struggle to put racquet on ball against an open player

There is some value to playing those kinds of matches occasionally, but mostly you need to stretch yourself in a more measured way
 
T

TennisOTM

Professional
HBK4life said:
They sure are. The C guys are as well to stay there. All levels really. Both sexes. It has gotten out of hand. So many people have quit. It’s just the same people over and over.
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I'd like to understand this better, because it is sounds so far from any reality I've seen. It sounds like being in a league where, nearly every single week, I'd face a player who would, say, blow a set to me on purpose, completely destroy me the rest of the match to the point of humiliation, and this happens so frequently that it makes me quit playing league. Is that what it's like?

I could see maybe running into a player like that once or twice a year at most. I've played in multiple leagues that produced the national champion team, and even when facing that team 1-2 times I didn't always get matched up against their above-level players. Even on rare occasions when I did, it was not a horrible experience. I figure some small portion of my league matches I'm gonna get blasted, and another small portion I will win easily. Most are pretty good matchups.

And I have never, not once in 150+ league matches, had someone obviously tank games against me. So you can see why I have a hard time understanding how in some areas, it is happening so often that it drives people to quit?
 
Moveforwardalways

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
All these players who don’t care about winning 4.0 trophies or playing at 4.0 nationals are mad at all the sandbaggers who are keeping them from winning 4.0 trophies and playing at 4.0 nationals. So they quit. Lol.

Here’s a thought: If you are getting “destroyed” by these 4.0 “sandbaggers” so often, every single week, that you quit. Maybe you are just not a 4.0. Stop latching on to a rating that you think you are and go find your place. Everyone else is playing these same guys too, but you are losing. There is a spot in the NTRP system for everyone. If you won’t play 3.5 because you can’t accept that you are a 3.5, that’s on you not the USTA.

Interestingly, most of these same people think everyone should play open tournaments as a solution, where these same “sandbagging” players would still destroy them.

It really does not make any sense.
 
C

Creighton

Professional
TennisOTM said:
I have a hard time seeing how any observational evaluation, in-person or video, would be better than just using match results. We've all seen players with good-looking strokes get crushed by players with ugly-looking strokes. It happens so often that it's a constant discussion topic on these forums.

There's a reason the old observation-based rater system was done away with - it was terrible. I'm not saying the current system is great - the DQ system based on match results could be much improved, but abandoning it altogether would 100 times worse, I think.
Click to expand...

The current system is broken though, the only way to win is by being out of level. So the current computer system isn’t doing a good job.

I’m a 3.5A down from 4.0 and I played a guy the other day just ran through me. I was playing great too and he could handle anything I threw at him. Then I looked him up and he played at ntrp 3.0 nationals this year. It just had to be a joke to be at these events where the 3.0 players are nearly 4.5 players.

The problem is based on common opponents, he shouldn’t have won like he did that day. But because he was finally stressed for a win he gave it his best. So all of his other results should be taken with a grain of salt because there is no way his opponents won as many games off of him if he wasn’t tanking.
 
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P

PK6

Semi-Pro
As I said it’s time to blow up USTA/ratings system!!! Whole league is fraud/scam!!! It promotes cheating/sandbagging and USTA doesn’t do anything about it!!! BLOW IT UP!!! USTA=
 
P

Pass750

Professional
Creighton said:
The current system is broken though, the only way to win is by being out of level. So the current computer system isn’t doing a good job.

I’m a 3.5A down from 4.0 and I played a guy the other day just ran through me. I was playing great too and he could handle anything I threw at him. Then I looked him up and he played at ntrp 3.0 nationals this year. It just had to be a joke to be at these events where the 3.0 players are nearly 4.5 players.

The problem is based on common opponents, he shouldn’t have won like he did that day. But because he was finally stressed for a win he gave it his best. So all of his other results should be taken with a grain of salt because there is no way his opponents won as many games off of him if he wasn’t tanking.
Click to expand...
What is wrong with people that they get joy out of winning trophies and playing at a level where they don’t belong? I play every point like it is my last, I can’t imagine tanking points let alone games and sets.
 
R

romano

New User
If USTA would simply lower the strike threshold to something more reasonable, it would definitely help. The 3-strikes system is well intended but can be better. For example, if you're a 3.0s player, the strike threshold is 3.8. Much too high. If USTA would lower it to something like 3.6, it would generate strikes faster and move up players quicker. It would also alleviate the need and frustration of filing NTRP grievances.
 
mpournaras

mpournaras

Hall of Fame
PK6 said:
As I said it’s time to blow up USTA/ratings system!!! Whole league is fraud/scam!!! It promotes cheating/sandbagging and USTA doesn’t do anything about it!!! BLOW IT UP!!! USTA=
Click to expand...
Dude what is your deal? Go play UTR events or up a level at USTA tournaments
 
time_fly

time_fly

Hall of Fame
Creighton said:
The current system is broken though, the only way to win is by being out of level. So the current computer system isn’t doing a good job.

I’m a 3.5A down from 4.0 and I played a guy the other day just ran through me. I was playing great too and he could handle anything I threw at him. Then I looked him up and he played at ntrp 3.0 nationals this year. It just had to be a joke to be at these events where the 3.0 players are nearly 4.5 players.

The problem is based on common opponents, he shouldn’t have won like he did that day. But because he was finally stressed for a win he gave it his best. So all of his other results should be taken with a grain of salt because there is no way his opponents won as many games off of him if he wasn’t tanking.
Click to expand...

Maybe he just had a good day. Last night another top-of-level 3.5 and I played a pair of brothers and we won in a third set tiebreak. We were down a break at one point in each of the first two sets. It felt like a low 4.0 match for sure. The opponents were both tall dudes with huge serves, good net coverage, and really aggressive groundstrokes. But they were both "low" 3.5s with losing records. Most days, a lot fewer of those big swings and stabbing defensive winner attempts go in; they had a great night last night. It happens.
 
C

Creighton

Professional
time_fly said:
Maybe he just had a good day. Last night another top-of-level 3.5 and I played a pair of brothers and we won in a third set tiebreak. We were down a break at one point in each of the first two sets. It felt like a low 4.0 match for sure. The opponents were both tall dudes with huge serves, good net coverage, and really aggressive groundstrokes. But they were both "low" 3.5s with losing records. Most days, a lot fewer of those big swings and stabbing defensive winner attempts go in; they had a great night last night. It happens.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about guys with losing records. I'm talking about a guy who has won 7 singles matches in a row in league play on a team that was capable of making it to nationals, if we didn't beat them.
 
P

PK6

Semi-Pro
Pass750 said:
What is wrong with people that they get joy out of winning trophies and playing at a level where they don’t belong? I play every point like it is my last, I can’t imagine tanking points let alone games and sets.
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You play to w
mpournaras said:
Dude what is your deal? Go play UTR events or up a level at USTA tournaments
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f—k that!!! Got fed up with losing/spending thousands thousands thousands of dollars on lessons/doing what tennis pro said only to get beat/have opponents who rather talk about stupid **** instead of focusing on match/playing 3+hours in hot humid muggy sticky weather after working all day/have dumb ass captains pair me with different players when I told them I want a strong 3.5 men/women but put me with weak players who could care less about winning/being scrutinised for winning when I was a captain instead of other peoples feeling-I can finally enjoy summer/be at peace with myself instead of dealing with all this USTA crap.
 
mpournaras

mpournaras

Hall of Fame
PK6 said:
You play to w

f—k that!!! Got fed up with losing/spending thousands thousands thousands of dollars on lessons/doing what tennis pro said only to get beat/have opponents who rather talk about stupid **** instead of focusing on match/playing 3+hours in hot humid muggy sticky weather after working all day/have dumb ass captains pair me with different players when I told them I want a strong 3.5 men/women but put me with weak players who could care less about winning/being scrutinised for winning when I was a captain instead of other peoples feeling-I can finally enjoy summer/be at peace with myself instead of dealing with all this USTA crap.
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Sounds like you are cursed with a weak team. Been there. WHen I moved to Raleigh NC my team that I was put on sincerely stunk. Super fun and nice guys but losing a match after taking my court time after time took a lot of the fun out of USTA. Then I moved and found a spot on a legacy team that goes to states every now and again and it is a LOT more fun.

Sorry bud don't let it all get you bitter about it.
 
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T

TennisOTM

Professional
Creighton said:
The current system is broken though, the only way to win is by being out of level. So the current computer system isn’t doing a good job.

I’m a 3.5A down from 4.0 and I played a guy the other day just ran through me. I was playing great too and he could handle anything I threw at him. Then I looked him up and he played at ntrp 3.0 nationals this year. It just had to be a joke to be at these events where the 3.0 players are nearly 4.5 players.

The problem is based on common opponents, he shouldn’t have won like he did that day. But because he was finally stressed for a win he gave it his best. So all of his other results should be taken with a grain of salt because there is no way his opponents won as many games off of him if he wasn’t tanking.
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I agree there could be improvements to do a better job of catching / preventing these kinds of outlier cases. But to say the entire system is broken is quite a stretch to me. How often do you really get matched up against a player like this? The vast majority of players are perfectly fine at their level.

"The only way to win is by being out of level" is probably true if by "win" you mean winning Nationals. But that's probably going to be true under any system for level-based championships. By definition the best teams will have players at the top of the level, and the best of the best teams will be the players who have improved beyond the level during the year. I suppose you could have a very strict DQ/promotion system where even C-rated players would get promoted immediately if their rating rises above their level, but is that really what we want?
 
J

JordanWinning

Rookie
I’m going to say this again, for all of the “there’s no way he’s a X.X because he crushed me!” crowd, you can get blasted 0 & 0 by someone with the same half point rating as you.

Per the USTA: “Are all players at a given NTRP equal in ability? No… the NTRP system identifies general levels of ability… For example, a 3.5 player can fall anywhere between a 3.01 and 3.50. That is the reason many people feel they are playing sandbaggers - they are closer to the bottom of that range while their opponent is closer to the top of the range. A typical match result for a player, for example, with a 3.01 rating versus a 3.49, both of whom are 3.5s, would be 6-0, 6-0 in favor of the higher rated player.”

Even the USTA says it’s a skill issue.
 
schmke

schmke

Legend
TennisOTM said:
I agree there could be improvements to do a better job of catching / preventing these kinds of outlier cases. But to say the entire system is broken is quite a stretch to me. How often do you really get matched up against a player like this? The vast majority of players are perfectly fine at their level.

"The only way to win is by being out of level" is probably true if by "win" you mean winning Nationals. But that's probably going to be true under any system for level-based championships. By definition the best teams will have players at the top of the level, and the best of the best teams will be the players who have improved beyond the level during the year. I suppose you could have a very strict DQ/promotion system where even C-rated players would get promoted immediately if their rating rises above their level, but is that really what we want?
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Level based leagues have a fundamental "problem" in that to win, you have to have players at the top of your level. And to have critical mass of players, levels have to be wider than perhaps we'd like.

If we are talking about only self-rates and appeals where strikes apply, I agree the thresholds are too high. I'm guessing the USTA does this so new players don't feel "punished" for doing well prematurely or to discourage new players from joining or captains from having them on the team, but the result is an aspect of the system that is ripe for abuse. At an extreme, the strike thresholds could just be the top of the level instead of several tenths higher and while this would result in far more DQ's, it would be more fair to established players who aren't new and liable to be improving quickly from having to face new players that often seem out of level. But would the negative impact on new players and their willingness to join or their experience from getting DQ'd make the participation numbers even worse than they are?

Having all players be eligible to be DQ'd may have some merits, but also some challenges. Promoting players immediately would wreak havoc with rosters and the ability of a team to field line-ups. Or it would discouraging having too many "good" players on your roster. You could perhaps let local league play go on without any promotions and only do it at the end of phases of the season or playoffs, but then what if a team wins and is then decimated? Does the runner up go in their stead? What if they lack enough players too? And what if different division seasons are going on in parallel?

Of course, what gives players the incentive to game the system is Nationals, so you might say to do away with Nationals so that carrot is gone, but Nationals is also what draws some players to league play, the opportunity, however slight, to advance on however far that may be, and test yourself against other areas/states/districts/sections.
 
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