Question about tennisrecruiting rankings.

gnawhb · Sep 1, 2009

I have looked my question up on the F.A.Q's unlike many other people but I'm still confused.

The ratings (stars) are awarded once a year, near the beginning of the school year (early October). A special ranking is done that includes matches from Sept 1 through August 31 of the previous year - for classes that have more than 1000 ranked players the top 25 are blue-chips, the next 50 are 5-stars, the next 125 are 4-stars, the next 200 are 3-stars, the next 200 are 2-stars, and the rest are 1-stars. For classes with fewer ranked players, a percentage is used.

Since it's September first, will my ranking that updated today lock and be used to determine my stars or will it continue to change until early october? I'm becoming very paranoid because last year I was cut off at 201 and I'm getting sick of being underrated. Thanks :

10isDad · Sep 1, 2009

I believe the stars are awarded based on tournaments starting between 09/01/08 and 08/31/09.

Stars, shmars. Yeah, it's nice to say you're x amount of stars, but since they only update once per year, they're a poor indicator of how a person is playing at any specific time. They're a guideline. Coaches are going to look at the numerical rating. I would imagine coaches are going to weigh recent results higher than results from 11 or 12 months ago, since improvements are often quite dramatic with juniors.

For a coach to only look at the number of stars a player has, he/she would be missing out on lots of pertinent data...probably not a coach I'd want my kid involved with.

SoCalDominates · Sep 1, 2009

10isDad said:
I believe the stars are awarded based on tournaments starting between 09/01/08 and 08/31/09.

Stars, shmars. Yeah, it's nice to say you're x amount of stars, but since they only update once per year, they're a poor indicator of how a person is playing at any specific time. They're a guideline. Coaches are going to look at the numerical rating. I would imagine coaches are going to weigh recent results higher than results from 11 or 12 months ago, since improvements are often quite dramatic with juniors.

For a coach to only look at the number of stars a player has, he/she would be missing out on lots of pertinent data...probably not a coach I'd want my kid involved with.

so what ur saying by the 1st part is that these ranking today are the ones used for the stars?

SoCalDominates · Sep 1, 2009

gnaw ur ranking will still change every tuesday but i believe the ones from today are used for the stars

tennismom42 · Sep 1, 2009

10isDad said:
I believe the stars are awarded based on tournaments starting between 09/01/08 and 08/31/09.

Stars, shmars. Yeah, it's nice to say you're x amount of stars, but since they only update once per year, they're a poor indicator of how a person is playing at any specific time. They're a guideline. Coaches are going to look at the numerical rating. I would imagine coaches are going to weigh recent results higher than results from 11 or 12 months ago, since improvements are often quite dramatic with juniors.

For a coach to only look at the number of stars a player has, he/she would be missing out on lots of pertinent data...probably not a coach I'd want my kid involved with.

I agree with 10isdad, "stars, shmars." While it's good to verbal compare oneself to a star or a blue chip, coaches look at the numbers. If they have half a brain they'll look at the SOS. Personally I think that's the most important number.

As I recall from last year, we too were disappointed about this time of year. I believe the last tournaments considered were at the end of August. Sent TRN an e-mail and ask Dallas or Julie

cindycg · Sep 1, 2009

I was wondering the same thing about the cutoff date for the 'stars" - It makes no sense that the ranking for August 31st is used, but they wait until October to post the new "star" awards...hmm - if anyone knows for sure, I would be interested -

And I agree it is a crazy system bc there are players playing 4 or 5 stars or blue chips in many age groups, and I see no way of accounting for that - so they reward defeating a 5 star freshman the same as defeating a 5 star sophomore? whatever - I just think it's fun for the kids to watch and compare - hopefully the coaches don't take it too serioulsy.

ClarkC · Sep 1, 2009

cindycg said:
And I agree it is a crazy system bc there are players playing 4 or 5 stars or blue chips in many age groups, and I see no way of accounting for that - so they reward defeating a 5 star freshman the same as defeating a 5 star sophomore?

This has been discussed several times. No, beating a 5-star who is two years younger than you is not as good as beating a 5-star who is two years older than you. In fact, it is not likely as good as beating a 3-star who is only one year older than you.

Tennis recruiting maintains a complete ranking list for boys, and another for girls. All ranked boys are in one huge database. In that list, which can only be seen by Coaching Advantage members (paying members who are college coaches who get to see all kinds of personal info in player profiles, as well as more detailed ranking info). The huge list will say that class of 2009 player Alexander Domijan is #1 (I'm guessing here) and class of 2011 3-star player John Doe is #1937 even though he is #322 in his own class.

When players meet, the numerical ranking from the huge single list is used to evaluate the result. You might be expected to beat a player younger than you with more stars, or expected to lose to a player older than you with fewer stars.

tenniscrazed · Sep 1, 2009

^^^^^^^ The debate between USTA, TRN, ITF, ATP, Star System, Points per round etc etc., will never end and are well beyond any of our control. With the exception of picking the best tournaments to play, what is definitive is you must do everything in your power to win your matches. The rest will fall into place on it's own.

cindycg · Sep 1, 2009

ClarkC - thanks for that explanation - makes a lot more sense now! (I am new - never saw this discussed before)

tenniscrazed · Sep 1, 2009

cindycg said:
ClarkC - thanks for that explanation - makes a lot more sense now! (I am new - never saw this discussed before)

What's disappointing about TRN is that there are many players who have either quit tennis or been injured and haven't played many if any tournament matches and their "star" hasn't reflected changes. Here is a link to just one

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=245840

This kid, chosen out of a random sampling has played a whopping 4 matches in the past 12 months yet he is a 5 star recruit. To me, it makes the whole TRN thing highly questionable. FYI I have many more like this I have found over the years.

mrmo1115 · Sep 1, 2009

The last cut off was today, but they update the stars in October.

tennismom42 · Sep 1, 2009

tenniscrazed said:
What's disappointing about TRN is that there are many players who have either quit tennis or been injured and haven't played many if any tournament matches and their "star" hasn't reflected changes. Here is a link to just one

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=245840

This kid, chosen out of a random sampling has played a whopping 4 matches in the past 12 months yet he is a 5 star recruit. To me, it makes the whole TRN thing highly questionable. FYI I have many more like this I have found over the years.

But his numbers show that -- they are all N/A. Coaches/recruiters WILL look at the numbers, not just the stars. They too know that the stars are "label references" only and do not change for the year.

I remember when Jack Sock was out for about a year (or more). Thus he's a 5-star now, yet ranked #1 for class of 2010. Some of the rankings (regardless of the system used) demonstrate a player who is high ranked, yet has played very few tournaments. They typically win all or most of those few (high value) tournaments.

10isRocs · Sep 2, 2009

tenniscrazed said:
What's disappointing about TRN is that there are many players who have either quit tennis or been injured and haven't played many if any tournament matches and their "star" hasn't reflected changes. Here is a link to just one

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=245840

This kid, chosen out of a random sampling has played a whopping 4 matches in the past 12 months yet he is a 5 star recruit. To me, it makes the whole TRN thing highly questionable. FYI I have many more like this I have found over the years.

From what I understand, Mika has been injured. I wonder if they will drop his Star rating because he has not played much this last year. In previous years, he was a really good player and did deserve a 5 * rating.

ClarkC · Sep 2, 2009

tenniscrazed said:
What's disappointing about TRN is that there are many players who have either quit tennis or been injured and haven't played many if any tournament matches and their "star" hasn't reflected changes. Here is a link to just one

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=245840

This kid, chosen out of a random sampling has played a whopping 4 matches in the past 12 months yet he is a 5 star recruit. To me, it makes the whole TRN thing highly questionable. FYI I have many more like this I have found over the years.

What's disappointing about it? All their rankings are explained fully, there are numerical as well as star ratings, so everyone who reads their rankings know what is going on.

dallasoliver · Sep 6, 2009

gnawhb said:
Since it's September first, will my ranking that updated today lock and be used to determine my stars or will it continue to change until early october? I'm becoming very paranoid because last year I was cut off at 201 and I'm getting sick of being underrated. Thanks :

The College Recruiting List (CRL) rankings are updated every week throughout the year - and new rankings are calculated and published each week.

Throughout this month, we will update data from 1-Sep-2008 through 31-Aug-2009. Once we have the data as clean as possible, we will run a final ranking using the CRL ranking algorithm and use that ranking as the basis for the Top Prospect ratings (i.e., the "Stars").

I hope this helps. I will answer other unique questions in this thread that others have not already addressed.

Best,
Dallas

dallasoliver · Sep 6, 2009

10isDad said:
For a coach to only look at the number of stars a player has, he/she would be missing out on lots of pertinent data...probably not a coach I'd want my kid involved with.

Agreed. The Top Prospect Ratings (i.e., the "Stars") are intended more for the media. Newspapers love to write releases like:

"XYZ University received a commitment from John Doe, a 5-Star prospect according to TennisRecruiting.net."

The Top Prospect Ratings are a very coarse ranking that is only updated once per year. College coaches pay attention to the rankings that we update weekly.

Best,
Dallas

dallasoliver · Sep 6, 2009

cindycg said:
I was wondering the same thing about the cutoff date for the 'stars" - It makes no sense that the ranking for August 31st is used, but they wait until October to post the new "star" awards...

We delay by a month so that we can get the data as correct as possible. We have received literally hundreds of emails so far this month with corrections to match results. Each one of these corrections has to be researched, etc.

This month delay allows us to put out accurate ratings.

Best,
Dallas

dallasoliver · Sep 6, 2009

ClarkC said:
This has been discussed several times. No, beating a 5-star who is two years younger than you is not as good as beating a 5-star who is two years older than you. In fact, it is not likely as good as beating a 3-star who is only one year older than you.

Tennis recruiting maintains a complete ranking list for boys, and another for girls. All ranked boys are in one huge database. In that list, which can only be seen by Coaching Advantage members (paying members who are college coaches who get to see all kinds of personal info in player profiles, as well as more detailed ranking info). The huge list will say that class of 2009 player Alexander Domijan is #1 (I'm guessing here) and class of 2011 3-star player John Doe is #1937 even though he is #322 in his own class.

When players meet, the numerical ranking from the huge single list is used to evaluate the result. You might be expected to beat a player younger than you with more stars, or expected to lose to a player older than you with fewer stars.

Could not have put it any better myself. Thanks, Clark.

- Dallas

dallasoliver · Sep 6, 2009

10isRocs said:
From what I understand, Mika has been injured. I wonder if they will drop his Star rating because he has not played much this last year. In previous years, he was a really good player and did deserve a 5 * rating.

Nothing subjective here. If he has not played enough tournaments for a ranking, then he will not be rated.

Best,
Dallas

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