And before 1910, who was the best?
- Thread starter Q&M son
- Start date
Leelord337
Hall of Fame
I have no earthly idea
Tony Sideway
Banned
William Renshaw
Jim Courier fan
New User
Laurie!--------------
chaognosis
Semi-Pro
H.L. Doherty.
Absolutely no question about it.
Absolutely no question about it.
Jules Verne. Not really kidding (only a bit), because in the old times, it was costum, to use an alias-name. The early Wimbledon draw is filled with famous names of poets and artists. So Jules Verne indeed played some Wimbledons. The most prominent of those false contenders was the finalist of 1878, a certain St. Leger Goold. Later he became a murderer, and was rightfully beaten by a priest, the reverend Hartley. In earnest one of the Dohertys, i think Laurie, who however was frail, and Brookes.
Tennisfan!
Rookie
"Laurie" Doherty!
chaognosis
Semi-Pro
Laurie may have been frail, but he was robust compared to his brother.
And I would also rate Brookes just after after H.L. (and maybe R.F.).
Murray_Maniac
Banned
This quetion can't really be answered because: 1. Nearly everyone who was around then is gone. 2. Those still alive probably wouldnt post in the tw forums.
3. No vids of this time is on youtube.
3. No vids of this time is on youtube.
chaognosis
Semi-Pro
A. Wallis Myers, the most respected tennis journalist of his era, ranked H.L. Doherty as Tilden's equal (in the early 1930s). Norman Brookes--who competed against both Laurie and Tilden--said in the 1950s that Tilden and the Dohertys were the top three players ever. In 1969, both Harry Hopman and Lance Tingay listed H.L. Doherty among the top ten players of all time. In his book Tennis Styles and Stylists (also 1969), Paul Metzler reports that many people close to the game felt that players steadily improved up to the time of the Dohertys, but after that there was very little real development in players, the main advances being rather in technology. So while we may lack video clips, we do have some weighty written accounts.
Q&M son
Professional
superstition
Hall of Fame
We have a winner!
Vermillion
Banned
Jared J. Pim was the best
TennisExpert
New User
"Laurie" Doherty
JoshDragon
Hall of Fame
William Regal or King Booker.
counter_puncher
Banned
i just picked a random guy.
Tennisfan!
Rookie
Q&M son
Professional
Great reading here,
http://www.archive.org/details/lawntennisathom00myergoog
and here,
http://www.archive.org/details/onthecourtandoff005220mbp
http://www.archive.org/details/lawntennisathom00myergoog
and here,
http://www.archive.org/details/onthecourtandoff005220mbp
Why 1910 cut off?
Of course you can open a thread in anyway you like? Just curious why you chose 1910. I would have thought a more natural cut-off would have been 1914 (start of world war 1), no tennis was played of any consequence for 5 years or so starting then.
IF, you had made it 1914 being the cut-off I would have said that it was a toss up between H.L Doherty or Tony Wilding. Probably the former winning. (Though I think that Wilding's peak clay court tennis would have been better).
Of course you can open a thread in anyway you like? Just curious why you chose 1910. I would have thought a more natural cut-off would have been 1914 (start of world war 1), no tennis was played of any consequence for 5 years or so starting then.
IF, you had made it 1914 being the cut-off I would have said that it was a toss up between H.L Doherty or Tony Wilding. Probably the former winning. (Though I think that Wilding's peak clay court tennis would have been better).
Q&M son
Professional
Simply as lack of knowledge...
Q&M son
Professional
Yes timnz, I believe "now" (after reading a lot) that will be very close between those two greats.
Borgforever
Hall of Fame
Timnz -- H. L. was undefeated on clay 1900-1906, seven years straight and retired undefeated. But since he lost against Ritchie in the 1907 Monte Carlo F (without any practice) he did suffer losses after his "retirement" although he didn't officially announce his retirement until, I think April 23rd or something 1907 -- a few weeks after Monte...
Borg was arguably undefeated on clay from September 1976 (Jimbo USO F on green clay) to Vilas at Nations Cup at Düsseldorf 1980. That's four years.
Although if we go by game-winning percentage domination I think that it's safe to say that both Wilding and Borg surpasses H. L.'s game-winning-percentage/domination-prowess.
However H. L. had very weak health. Had TBC vaccine been readily available during the Doherty's reign I just wonder if he couldn't have been even more dominant.
And H. L.'s records indoors, grass and in international events also, cumulatively, surpass Wilding's record.
Although I haven't studied Tony to a great extent -- his levels and records are so fierce I am reserving a ranking spot for him on my GOAT-list.
Wilding has several things going for him. His 1913 is a GOAT-year. His DC-record is impressive. His 4 Wimbys -- almost five in a row like R. F. -- both lost -- arguably -- because of failing physical prowess.
Myers was quite clear that peak Wilding of 1913 could've beaten peak Tilden.
No small statement.
And Wilding won a heck of a lot of fine tourneys too. Over a 100 of them.
The only thing is that Wilding arguably had few years like 1913 -- how many and how good his best years were -- I would like to study more closely...
I will recount his great Wimby 1913 final with "The California Comet" since it's an ultra-great showdown.
Together with the 1905-final-match the 1913-final-match considered having the highest quality tennis in Wimbys first 50 years.
Borg was arguably undefeated on clay from September 1976 (Jimbo USO F on green clay) to Vilas at Nations Cup at Düsseldorf 1980. That's four years.
Although if we go by game-winning percentage domination I think that it's safe to say that both Wilding and Borg surpasses H. L.'s game-winning-percentage/domination-prowess.
However H. L. had very weak health. Had TBC vaccine been readily available during the Doherty's reign I just wonder if he couldn't have been even more dominant.
And H. L.'s records indoors, grass and in international events also, cumulatively, surpass Wilding's record.
Although I haven't studied Tony to a great extent -- his levels and records are so fierce I am reserving a ranking spot for him on my GOAT-list.
Wilding has several things going for him. His 1913 is a GOAT-year. His DC-record is impressive. His 4 Wimbys -- almost five in a row like R. F. -- both lost -- arguably -- because of failing physical prowess.
Myers was quite clear that peak Wilding of 1913 could've beaten peak Tilden.
No small statement.
And Wilding won a heck of a lot of fine tourneys too. Over a 100 of them.
The only thing is that Wilding arguably had few years like 1913 -- how many and how good his best years were -- I would like to study more closely...
I will recount his great Wimby 1913 final with "The California Comet" since it's an ultra-great showdown.
Together with the 1905-final-match the 1913-final-match considered having the highest quality tennis in Wimbys first 50 years.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
this will sadly turn once again into a dogfight between renshtards and dohertards...
And....
And Wildingtards!!
this will sadly turn once again into a dogfight between renshtards and dohertards...
And Wildingtards!!
C
ceberus
Guest
Lol this thread is win.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
SPDBRNR34
New User
SPDBRNR34
New User
This below was supposed to be my reply....newbie here not sure about how to quote a prior post and then add my commentary...
Wallis Myers book 'Lawn Tennis at Home and Abroad', I think published in 1903, had this to say of Joshua Pim: "But on his day I am inclined to think that Pim was the finest player we have ever had". Now maybe because he #1) Wasn't always 'on', or as consistent as Baddeley, and #2) Was done basically by 26 yrs old, we can't make him #1 for this period, but certainly Top 5 seems in order...
Wallis Myers book 'Lawn Tennis at Home and Abroad', I think published in 1903, had this to say of Joshua Pim: "But on his day I am inclined to think that Pim was the finest player we have ever had". Now maybe because he #1) Wasn't always 'on', or as consistent as Baddeley, and #2) Was done basically by 26 yrs old, we can't make him #1 for this period, but certainly Top 5 seems in order...
Harry Hopman rated Doherty ahead of Hoad and Rosewall.
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