Moonballing = hate?

shazbot

Semi-Pro
So 80-90% of your FH's are moonballs (as you stated) and colleges are interested and thinking you would make a good addition to their teams?

Are colleges lowering their standards nowadays?

One would have to think that the moonballing tactic only work on players <4.0. Anything above that and you are wasting peoples time playing with them.
 

Jmu008

New User
I think the strategy works because it's at the high school level, where players are too afraid to try smashing at baseline. But when you get to the next level, players aren't afraid to punish a moonball with an overhead. Competent serve/volleyers have the skill set necessary to punish moonballers as well.
 

Jmu008

New User
Sorry for double post but I was interested enough to read on...yea, really, moonballing is a nice strategy at the 4.0 level, but you're not going to go anywhere until you learn control/power.

...And as you no doubt have learned, people hate moonballers. And especially people that claim that moonballing is the greatest tactic in the history of the Earth. Just throwing that out there. :)
 

Cody

Semi-Pro
Please post some match play if possible (=.

I would love to see this strategy in action, i have come across a few moonballers but they don't sound as good as it as you do.

Thanks, Cody
 

enishi1357

Semi-Pro
I dont think moon balling is bad. I just think whoever hates it probably cant deal with it. I for one am a all rounder. If a moon ball comes my way I just smack it at the baseline and then volley. Cant get any easier than that. easy points too cuz I know they can't attack which make it easier on me mentally
 

Falloutjr

Banned
Please post some match play if possible (=.

I would love to see this strategy in action, i have come across a few moonballers but they don't sound as good as it as you do.

Thanks, Cody

I'll make some footage if I can get a hold of a camera.
 

Mick

Legend
I dont think moon balling is bad. I just think whoever hates it probably cant deal with it. I for one am a all rounder. If a moon ball comes my way I just smack it at the baseline and then volley. Cant get any easier than that. easy points too cuz I know they can't attack which make it easier on me mentally

that is true. if you keep on winning points by smashing the moonballs, your opponent will stop moonballing.

i like playing moonballers because they help me practicing my overhead.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
As usual, I'm counter to most of you's....
I think we all should be able to hit heavy topspin moonballs, like topspin lobs, from the baseline so we CAN hit those shots against net players. Practice makes perfect, and variety IS the spice we need in our tennis games.
We also need to practice our drop shots CC and DTL, and both slice and topspin groundies.
Don't discount a seldom used shot. You never know WHO your next opponent is going to be.
 

gameboy

Hall of Fame
Nobody is going to disagree with the statement that tall looping topspin lob is something that everyone should have in their arsenal.

What most people will not agree with is that you should use that shot 90% of the time.
 

Falloutjr

Banned
Nobody is going to disagree with the statement that tall looping topspin lob is something that everyone should have in their arsenal.

What most people will not agree with is that you should use that shot 90% of the time.

Now that I look at that first post, I shouldve noted when I start moonballing, they're 80-90% of my shots. Over the course of an entire match its more around 10-20%
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Effectiveness always determines the shot selection.
If it works, keep hitting it.
If they figure out how to dice you off the court, maybe don't.
So if it's WINNING tennis, keep it up. If you lose a buncha points, change it, like always.
 

doom

Banned
One thing you will notice once you get to college or start playing very good players regularly, is that the last thing you want to give these players is time to take a full swing and time to put all of their body weight into a shot. Hitting moonballs is good for a change up but it gives your opponent too much time to work out what he's going to do with it. In the modern game the most valuable commodity on the court is time. You do not want to give your opponent too much of it.
 

apor

Rookie
back when i was a lowly 3.0-3.50 (no offense, i'm not that far up from it now) i used to play this guy that had a very effective moonball. lots of topspin, big bounce, etc- just what you'd expect the moonball to be. very annoying- that is till you learn to handle it. this guy used to beat me all the time, but me being me, i'll continue to play somebody till i get the best of them. so i learned to swing-volley his moonballs with angle, attack the inevitable shorter moonballs with a smash after the bounce or even out of the air. i got pretty good at hitting them on the rise as well, enough to turn it into offense.
well guess what, he quit hitting them to me because i started getting the points. and i started beating him. and sadly his game has never progressed from that point, and he's stuck back there with his moonballs.
now i'm a pretty strong 3.5 (i can usually get a couple of games off 4.0 players per set), with a pretty nasty overhead and at this level, there is not a moonballer to be found. why? because everybody i hit with will more often than not destroy a consistent moonballer.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Moonballing will only take you to a certain level..almost impossible to go up any higher from there..same thing as pushing although pushing will get you stuck at a lower level.

I watched a player take Agassi in his prime, to the limit with actual moon balls in the US open. It doesn't get any higher level than that.
 

SlapChop

Semi-Pro
Funny story, after reading this thread yesterday I went to hit with a doubles group. During warmup the sun was still going down and the lights where coming on, this combination made it hard for me to see the ball and make good judgment on where the ball was going. I started hitting moonballs for the hell of it because it was easier than timing a strong regular stroke when I could see that well. I have to say that it took my warmup partner awhile to adjust to the moonballs. I had them landing pretty close to the base line. After they adjusted they could hit them back fine but that was the first time I ever really hit moonballs. During our match play I hit a few as well and found alot of them where returned into the net. It is something to keep in the arsenal in case you ever need it.

I am going to have to get used to playing in the lights. Since time change took away my sunshine.
 

mike53

Professional
Can someone find me a video of a serious male player top spin lobbing everything as his main tactic of play??? Or is it only women???? :twisted:

Didn't some old guy back before the video age get a lot of mileage out of this kind of game? Can't for the life of me remember his name.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Harold Solomon both sides, EddyDibbs off the forehand mainly. Both top 30 players in the world in the '70's.
 

Mick

Legend
Harold Solomon both sides, EddyDibbs off the forehand mainly. Both top 30 players in the world in the '70's.

i would think they would have been at a disadvantage playing this sort of game because they were quite short for a tennis player (both were shorter than 5 feet 7, i believe). and the shorter you are, the more difficult it is to return moonball.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Watched Harold MOONBALL Tanner, Kriek, and StanSmith into oblivion...:):)
Those western grip moons just take the sail out of the tall, unbending stiffs, or one track minded opponents.
Of course, on certain days, the T's, K's, and SS could easily WIN too....
But guys who always hit with Western grips, practice the art of moonballing, can trump tall guys who hit conti-forehand grips who would rather NOT hit 5 balls to end a point.
Patience, my young student.
And watching Harold PLAY against Eddy was a trying experience. Usually a lopsided score, after 8 games played in 1.5 hours, the rest goes quickly to the player with the patient mind.
 

mike53

Professional
i would think they would have been at a disadvantage playing this sort of game because they were quite short for a tennis player (both were shorter than 5 feet 7, i believe). and the shorter you are, the more difficult it is to return moonball.

On the contrary, I think this type of game is an equalizer for shorter players.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I agree...
Short players have the disadvantage of power and ball speed in their games, so need to find an advantage. That advantage seems to be superior fitness, willingness to hit more balls for each point, quickness and change of direction skills, and a tougher mental mindset. All needed for a successful short guy career.
Big tall guys can just pound winners and angles and focus on themselves.
 

doom

Banned
Watched Harold MOONBALL Tanner, Kriek, and StanSmith into oblivion...:):)
Those western grip moons just take the sail out of the tall, unbending stiffs, or one track minded opponents.
Of course, on certain days, the T's, K's, and SS could easily WIN too....
But guys who always hit with Western grips, practice the art of moonballing, can trump tall guys who hit conti-forehand grips who would rather NOT hit 5 balls to end a point.
Patience, my young student.
And watching Harold PLAY against Eddy was a trying experience. Usually a lopsided score, after 8 games played in 1.5 hours, the rest goes quickly to the player with the patient mind.

Too bad Semi Western is just about he most common forehand grip now. Makes taking those high balls much easier.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
I've been watching some videos on Youtube of players on the ATP and WTA moonballing because I love to watch the lob game, and I noticed most commenters had a strong disdain to say the least for the tactic. I find it very effective and I use moonballs on a regular basis and I don't think it's cheap or unskilled or anything. It's simply a style of tennis like SnV. Big serve, very safe 2nd serve, and lots of moonballs and smashes and lots of retrieving. It's not terribly complex or imaginative, but if you master it, I think could be a huge advantage. So why is it that it has such a negative connotation?

You're confusing 'moonballing' with hitting deeply into the court with lots of topspin (heavy ball). On TV, it appears to you that the pros are moonballing. However, go check out an ATP/WTA match in person and you'll see the incredible amount of action the players impart to the ball.

Moonballing is basically lobbing the ball... with little to no spin, deeply into the court. At levels of 4.0 or higher, many players return those balls by hitting them back deeply with lots of spin... pushing the moonballer further and further behind the baseline... until they cough up a short ball.

Don't confuse a moonball with a heavy ball.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Moonballs SHOULD be heavy balls IMHO. I don't think there is any confusion. I suppose people might count defensive lobs as moonballs but that's like calling Hewitt a pusher. :p

An effective moonball has a ton of spin as the spin will push people back sometimes making them hit the back wall (especially indoors) as they don't want to take a ball on the rise.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Moonballs at lower levels can be flat or even sliced.
Moonballs at the ATP level are always hit with extreme topspin, landing deep and clearing the net by about 12'. Any higher, the opponent WILL move forwards to volley/swing the ball out of the air.
 

Daveyo

New User
I play a moonballer (pusher) often, last year he constantly beat me and another guy we play with. So we decided to come up with a strategy that would handle his game. Let me also say he is a great vollyer which makes things even worse.

First we decided to play his game, well that didn't work at all. Then we decided to play more up, hit with slower pace and volley more even though that wasn't our game , that did work. I found myself able to smash more overheads although we would get lobbed sometimes, we NEVER were passed and we started beating him.

I played him a set yesterday and I was up 4-1 when I started playing my normal baseline game. I then found myself in a grueling match where I was getting tired from chasing moonballs all over the place. We ended up him serving at 4-5 and I broke him for the win at 6-4. Stick to playing a little more up since they don't hit with any pace, if you can use the overhead with angle and learn hoe to volly, don't get into hitting corner to corner or you'll go down. I also started reading his shots and would anticipate for the winner, good luck everyone.
 

Ripper014

Hall of Fame
My moonballs clear the net by 20 feet and land a foot from the baseline. Good luck with that :)

Then I would say your opponent is giving you to easy an approach shot to deal with. And as for drawing your opponent into the net with a dropshot... it had better be pretty good... I have been known to hit angled dropshots off of a dropshot.

You must be really good... because most people that go to the net will only do so when their approach shot or serve will illicit a weak return... and if you are going to provide them something high over the net... I usually consider that an easy put away.

But I concur with the statement above... you would be what I would call a pusher... nothing wrong with that, you are going to have a houseful of trophies one day. There have been many pro's that have been world class pushers... the memory of the first that I can remember were the Bagel Twins Harold Solomon and Eddie Dibbs. If you were to watch a match between the two of them you had better pack a lunch... dinner... and maybe even breakfast.

The best strategy for a new player is to keep the ball deep and play high percentage tennis... what better way is there to do this than to play a ball 20 feet over the net and deep in the court. It also takes a special player to play this way... it is not every player that has the patience and be strong of mind to carry out this game plan. Kudo's to you... I know I could not do it, it would be like chinese water torture for me.
 

xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame
Moonballs SHOULD be heavy balls IMHO. I don't think there is any confusion. I suppose people might count defensive lobs as moonballs but that's like calling Hewitt a pusher. :p

An effective moonball has a ton of spin as the spin will push people back sometimes making them hit the back wall (especially indoors) as they don't want to take a ball on the rise.

Depends on the defensive lob. 90% of my defensive lobs are hit high with heavy topspin. The last 10% are when I can't really do much else other than flick one up into the air.
 

KenC

Hall of Fame
Many years ago the women used to do this against Navratilova to keep her from punishing them with her forehand and backhand. I don't think it is as crucial today as the game is played with more topspin and the ball can clear the net with more than 5 feet and still land in and then bounce high. So, instead of hitting weak moonballs, you could try to hit high heavy topspin shots to achieve the same effect, just as Nadal does against Federer.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
A good moonballer doesn't hit it high enough for you to hit overheads. The keep it over your head, but not full reach over your head, and uses lots of topspin.
LeytonHewitt IS a pusher, when he's not in the state of mind to work you over the court. As is most of the top Men's players, when they're playing defensively. That is what defensive tennis is all about!
Nadal is one of the best pushers, who CAN move you around the court, and CAN hit some winners, but mostly chooses to punish his opponent's by making them huff and puff, retrieve and play shots from ridiculous angles.
Now we can't say Karlovic is a pusher ON HIS SERVES, but on his returns, he can get tentative and push the ball back hoping for a mistake from his opponent.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
A good moonballer doesn't hit it high enough for you to hit overheads. The keep it over your head, but not full reach over your head, and uses lots of topspin.

The ball travels in an arc. So if its too low at the baseline you should be able to move up and still hit an overhead. They can't perform magic and make the ball stay exactly too low to overhead and then suddenly drop to your feet..

OTOH if its always too low for an overhead - you will be able to handle it with a regular forehand. It's impossible to make moonballs overhead proof.

Anyway I don't really think these overheads would be easy. I am just saying I would enjoy it because I like hitting overheads.
 
Falloutjnr, you certainly have tickets on yourself, I'll give you that!
I personally don't have a problem with the way you win. Having said that, I think you sound like the type of player that everyone loves to watch get their ass handed to them. Then tennis is the real winner.
 

Falloutjr

Banned
Many years ago the women used to do this against Navratilova to keep her from punishing them with her forehand and backhand. I don't think it is as crucial today as the game is played with more topspin and the ball can clear the net with more than 5 feet and still land in and then bounce high. So, instead of hitting weak moonballs, you could try to hit high heavy topspin shots to achieve the same effect, just as Nadal does against Federer.

That's what my forehand AND backhand is like (i hit groundies better than the "3.5" player you all seem to think I am), but when my opponent starts constructing a point very well to the point that I'm about to lose, I moonball. If we get 6 or 7 shots in a rally and I think a change of pace is due, I moonball. If I see they can handle moonballs, I moonball even more. I don't mainstream moonballs, I just use them when the time calls for it. Moonballs, for me, are a reset button. You press it, and you go back to square one and start the game all over. I don't just do it to do it, there's a method to the madness. I was just curious as to why everyone thought moonballing is cheap. It's simply a weapon I employ. I made that post one day after I went to practice and I was like omg i wonder how well this would work. I use it about 5% of the time on the forehand side in matches (never on the backhand side actually)

And to all those who are opposed to the idea; why aren't you crying about serve and volley? Certainly the creators of tennis didn't intend for someone to stand 5 feet from the net smashing everything, but the purists don't seem to mind.

So yeah, I don't go for winners on a regular basis, I stand 5 feet behind the baseline and return everything with topspin, hit 20+ shot rallies, and I push from time to time, but I don't actually moonball as much as I claim to in the OP. I just wanted to see what reactions people had to the idea before I tried a couple matches with. I think I'd lose a lot of friends if I lobbed it up that much so I'll stick with d-line.

Edit: Plus, I was curious as to see why there were so many nasty comments about moonball videos on youtube. I can see why now o.o
 
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I don't mainstream moonballs, I just use them when the time calls for it.

At the beginning of this post, you said that you moonball 80% of the time off your forehand and 40-50% of the time off your backhand. This is not just when you get into trouble or want to mix it up. So which is it?
 

AlpineCadet

Hall of Fame
Try surprising them by randomly coming in and taking the easy kill out of the air. Moonballs aren't lobs, what's keeping you back?
 

Falloutjr

Banned
At the beginning of this post, you said that you moonball 80% of the time off your forehand and 40-50% of the time off your backhand. This is not just when you get into trouble or want to mix it up. So which is it?

It's the latter; I wanted to see how people would react to a pure moonballer to get a sense of why people disliked it. I was messing around on youtube and I saw the Seles/Chrissy footage of their moonballs and everyone left some nasty comments about moonballing and I thought it was unfair because it's just a shot. Just as a drop shot, or a volley is a shot, but people thought it was a very cheap thing to do. I guess I'm not the type that really gets upset over stuff like that, it's just another hurdle I have to overcome over the course of a match, so I didn't really get it at all, ya know?

Yeah, it does, but, like I said, I wouldn't have gotten as good a feel for you saying it's a cheap move because I've been moonballed and I don't think it's cheap at all, but the fact that you all referred to it as a pusher move and for lower level players, now I see why you feel like it's cheap and you shouldn't win like that, because you feel it's only a move for beginners and that you should forget it as you move along. Honestly, I don't think you should leave ANY shot behind, no matter how amateurish it is, because you never know when it'll come in handy.
 
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NickH87

Semi-Pro
At the 3.0-3.5 level you arent going to hit close to the baseline everytime so if you leave one short they can wait for it at the service line and hit it like a serve if they have any skill whatsoever.
 

nfor304

Banned
At the beginning of this thread you were talking about how great you are at it and how you use it all the time and can beat these good players playing like and now your saying you use it as a change up, or your planning to use it?
 
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Falloutjr

Banned
At the beginning of this thread you were talking about how great you are at it and how you use it all the time and can beat these good players playing like and now your saying you use it as a change up, or your planning to use it?

Nah I just wanted to play a few friendlies with it lol. But when I actually do use it, it's very effective.
 
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