MacBook Pro

albino smurf said:

As a member of the 'arts crowd' I have to laugh at this one.

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Once you're done laughing you can let me in on the joke.

max said:

I've had the pleasure of using BOTH PCs and Macs ever since they were popularly introduced in the 1980s. Consistently I find the Macs easier to use. They simply WORK. All too often, the PCs fail.

I'm not a computer technician, etc., I'm just a mere user. The whole Mac vs. PC debate got stale around 1990 in my book; now you just have PC techies trying to score points.

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I've had the pleasure of using Macs alongside PCs. Even now, I'm using a MacBook Pro at the library and my Dell XPS at home. Which OS is better or easier to use is more a matter of taste, so there's no argument from me here. "simply [working]" however, is something else. OS X seems to cater more to the lowest common denominator, so for those who can't care less about their computers, this gives the illusion of stability.

If you've seen any of the Mac v PC ads, and the general solution to all computer problems being "get a mac", you'll realise that it's the Mac users who are constantly trying to score points by trying to convert PC users and impose their supposed superiority over us.

movdqa said:

Think what you will, your other stuff IS irrelevant.

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Fallacious proof by assertion argument is fallacious.

> Fallacious proof by assertion argument is fallacious.

a <=> a ^ (b v ~b)

also

a <=> a v b
a <=> a v ~b

> If you've seen any of the Mac v PC ads, and the general solution
> to all computer problems being "get a mac", you'll realise that it's
> the Mac users who are constantly trying to score points by trying
> to convert PC users and impose their supposed superiority over
> us.

Those are just ads that may or may not reflect true users.

I like my security by obscurity.

ehh, I'm not imposin' nothin'. I just remember all those guys loving Bill Gates like crazy and whining about the whole monopoly issue a number of years back. There's a lot of Gates wannabes out there, and computer geeks so in love with tinkering that they like a computer that requires lots of hand-holding and fiddling.

. . . I'm not a gamer, either, so that affects my perception considerably.

movdqa said:

Those are just ads that may or may not reflect true users.

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Wouldn't reflect all users of course.

"Get a Mac" being a common solution to every PC problem however, illustrates your average Mac user's mentality/knowledge quite well, however.

I haven't seen the Mac vs PC ads run in quite some time though I also watch practically no television. It seems to me that Apple is spending their ad money on iPhones and iPads.

The average PC user is terribly unsophisticated and I don't think that they should need to be. The PC should be as easy to use as any other appliance.

movdqa said:

> Fallacious proof by assertion argument is fallacious.

a <=> a ^ (b v ~b)

also

a <=> a v b
a <=> a v ~b

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Fantastic, "fallacious proof by assertion argument is fallacious" in logic form!

max said:

ehh, I'm not imposin' nothin'. I just remember all those guys loving Bill Gates like crazy and whining about the whole monopoly issue a number of years back. There's a lot of Gates wannabes out there, and computer geeks so in love with tinkering that they like a computer that requires lots of hand-holding and fiddling.

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Actually the monopoly issue has little to do with Mac v PC. Gates is known for being um, unpleasant, when it comes to business. It has no real relevance in much the same way Jobs being a ***** of a boss has nothing to do with the quality of products Apple releases every year.

If you don't tinker with your PC like your Mac = no handholding/fiddling. They're both equally as susceptible to failure if they're badly treated since Mac and PC share essentially the same parts that are available on the market (just to different extents). Seems however, that the pretty designs and high price leads Mac users to be far more careful with their computers than PC users do: e.g. the number of people who put their MacBooks on top of their laptop covers to prevent scratching.

Gaming is just only one of many things that give context to performance.

> Fantastic, "fallacious proof by assertion argument is fallacious" in
> logic form!

My reasoning is a mere tautology.

You had earlier conceded my original point so my tautology holds.

> Seems however, that the pretty designs and high price leads Mac users to
> be far more careful with their computers than PC users do; e.g. number of
> people who put their MacBooks on top of their laptop covers to prevent
> scratching.

Definitely not what I observed at the Mozilla conference in Whistler. People
balanced their MBPs on their knees while standing or palmed their MBPs. One guy went through two or three of them at the conference (broke one and got a new one multiple times).

A car costs far more than a MacBook Pro yet we park them in places where they can get easily damaged. I'm careful with my MacBook Pro but I'm generally careful with my electronics. My 2000 Dell Inspiron 4000 still runs just fine today. Of course it would come to a screeching halt if I booted it up and later shut it down as it would try to download Windows Update for a couple of years and then try to apply them.

movdqa said:

I haven't seen the Mac vs PC ads run in quite some time though I also watch practically no television. It seems to me that Apple is spending their ad money on iPhones and iPads.

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That's good. There was no need to pick a fight were none existed, and Apple will be better off gaining PC market dominance by further saturating the phone and handheld markets with iPhones, iPods and iPads.

movdqa said:

The average PC user is terribly unsophisticated and I don't think that they should need to be. The PC should be as easy to use as any other appliance.

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The average unsophisticated PC user is moving to Mac because the Mac OS X is generally more friendly for those who have no idea what they're doing.

In terms of ease of use v potential, then:

Mac -> PC -> Linux

...where Linux requires the most out of the user, but simultaneously allows him to do much more. This is why Mac is becoming so common - they cater well to the LCM who simply want a pretty design and something that is more forgiving. That doesn't make either the PC or Mac any better than the other; it's a tradeoff. However, PC does hold the advantage on hardware, and OS X the advantage for software-hardware integration.

Windows is not any more difficult to use than OS X is.

> That's good. There was no need to pick a fight were none existed,
> and Apple will be better off gaining PC market dominance by further
> saturating the phone and handheld markets with iPhones, iPods and
> iPads.

Competitors like to have fun.

The Microsoft Internet Explorer guys have sent many cakes to the
Mozilla guys on certain occassions.

> Mac -> PC -> Linux

> ...where Linux requires the most out of the user, but simultaneously
> allows him to do much more. This is why Mac is becoming so common -
> they cater well to the LCM who simply want a pretty design and
> something that is more forgiving. That doesn't make either the PC or
> Mac any better than the other; it's a tradeoff. However, PC does
> hold the advantage on hardware, and OS X the advantage for
> software-hardware integration.

Yup.

Kind of like granny sticks, tweeners and players frames.

> Windows is not any more difficult to use than OS X is.

This morning I went to remove a printer driver from my system. The
printer driver was from Hewlett-Packard. It required six reboots to
complete remove the driver. I had installed the driver last night so
that I could print out completed tax forms and didn't want to leave
the driver on the system because I don't want HP drivers on my system
if I don't need them.

I do find the layout of settings to be a lot simpler than the control
panel. The control panel has a ton of options that you have to read
through to get you where you want to go. The current control panel
tends to be broad and shallow where it is narrow and deep on Mac OS X.
Icons by default are nice too.

movdqa said:

> My reasoning is a mere tautology.

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As is mine.

movdqa said:

You had earlier conceded my original point so my tautology holds.

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That it was irrelevant? No, I didn't. However, I did concede on Thunderbolt because it is by definition new. However, that isn't the essence of what I said there. If I had known I'd be spending pointless hours refuting your points, I'd have just put "generally nothing new" instead. Point that Macs are generally outdated upon release stands - e.g. is the GPU availability and cost comparison.

movdqa said:

Definitely not what I observed at the Mozilla conference in Whistler. People balanced their MBPs on their knees while standing or palmed their MBPs. One guy went through two or three of them at the conference (broke one and got a new one multiple times).

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This is a generalisation, based on Mac users at the local library, classes, friends, etc. There are exceptions to every rule.

movdqa said:

A car costs far more than a MacBook Pro yet we park them in places where they can get easily damaged.

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Mindset is different. We accept that cars can be parked out in the open. At any rate, I wasn't talking about prices on an absolute scale, I meant relative to computer prices. Macs are generally noticeably more expensive than their PC equivalents and this knowledge acquired through purchase persuades Mac converts to be far more careful than they were with their old PCs.

movdqa said:

Yup. Kind of like granny sticks, tweeners and players frames.

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I was thinking this while I was typing that...glad to know we think alike in at least one level.

movdqa said:

This morning I went to remove a printer driver from my system. The printer driver was from Hewlett-Packard.

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Oh God, don't get me started on HP software, they drive me nuts. Microsoft needs to make OEMs like HP do all the hard work so that end users like us won't have to toil over seemingly basic things such as installing a wireless printer. I kinda wish MS would clamp down and set stricter standards for Windows based programmes, starting with small things such as inefficient uninstallers leaving registry entries. They seem to have gotten the idea with WP7, and that's turning out quite well.

> As is mine.

Then you agree that your second point is irrelevent.

> That it was irrelevant? No, I didn't. However, I did concede on
> Thunderbolt because it is by definition new. However, that isn't the
> essence of what I said there. If I had known I'd be spending
> pointless hours refuting your points, I'd have just put "generally
> nothing new" instead. Point that Macs are generally outdated upon
> release stands - e.g. is the GPU availability and cost comparison.

If you concede that it is new, then my logic holds and your second
point is irrelevent.

> This is a generalisation, based on Mac users at the local library,
> classes, friends, etc. There are exceptions to every rule.

The folks at the Mozilla conference did not pay for their MacBook
Pros - they were standard issue. Perhaps that makes a difference.

> Mindset is different. We accept that cars can be parked out in the
> open. At any rate, I wasn't talking about prices on an absolute
> scale, I meant relative to computer prices. Macs are generally
> noticeably more expensive than their PC equivalents and this
> knowledge acquired through purchase persuades Mac converts to be far
> more careful than they were with their old PCs.

Most of the folks I run into roll them over after a couple of years -
given that, there isn't a lot of need to be careful. The circles
that I run in don't consider Macs expensive. Perhaps the circles
that you run in have a different perspective.

Polaris:

<Facepalm>.

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If you were looking for that specific, they're obviously European. Can you not realize a simple racial classification? I'm not sure if you're the one who should be facepalming in this situation here.

movdqa:

I've heard the four-leaf clover referred to as the Apple-Key.

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That's what I heard it as back when it was actually the shape of an Apple.

That is correct. What you said and what I said are quite different.

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I quoted what you said from 2 different posts. You're saying that both are consistent, which would be terribly wrong.

You don't know that the book is wrong because you haven't read it.

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If you're the ******* of the book, then you're not setting a great example at this. Not only that, but you're being very obscure about your topics in this thread as well.

So what race are the Russian people?

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[sarcasm]They're half black and half asian[/sarcasm]

> If you were looking for that specific, they're obviously
> European. Can you not realize a simple racial classification? I'm
> not sure if you're the one who should be facepalming in this
> situation here.

So why would someone be racist against his own people? Why would
you assume that someone was racist for no reason?

> I quoted what you said from 2 different posts. You're saying that both
> are consistent, which would be terribly wrong.

Both are consistent. You're paraphrase was wrong.

> If you're the ******* of the book, then you're not setting a great
> example at this. Not only that, but you're being very obscure about
> your topics in this thread as well.

Read the book.

movdqa - are you in Boston? You mentioned WPI, so I assume you're somewhere regional to Worcester.

movdqa:

So why would someone be racist against his own people? Why would
you assume that someone was racist for no reason?

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If you go back and check the timestamps as Polaris would love, I posted the comment before he stated he was Russian.

Both are consistent. You're paraphrase was wrong.

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Your retaliation against your post was inconsistent with the first post. My paraphrase talked about that specific part, so it wasn't wrong.

> If you're the ******* of the book, then you're not setting a great
> example at this. Not only that, but you're being very obscure about
> your topics in this thread as well.

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Just for clarity, the asterick's isn't a bad word. It's synonymous with the word "example" and sounds like polygon.

> If you go back and check the timestamps as Polaris would love, I
> posted the comment before he stated he was Russian.

Very well, Why did you assume that he was racist in the first place?

> Your retaliation against your post was inconsistent with the first
> post. My paraphrase talked about that specific part, so it wasn't
> wrong.

I know what I think. I know what I said. I know what you said. What
you said isn't what I said.

> Just for clarity, the asterick's isn't a bad word.

Why would you assume that I thought it was a bad word?

Why don't you read the book?

so only two maybe three PC fans out there?

PCs are 90% of the market so there are a lot of PC fans out there. Even MacBook Pro fans can't get away from Windows.

movdqa:

Very well, Why did you assume that he was racist in the first place?

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He was talking about how Russian websites tend to give a lot of viruses.

Why would you assume that I thought it was a bad word?

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It was clarification for everybody.

Why don't you read the book?

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I'm not going to waste my time to debate with you after reading a book. It's a huge waste of my time, especially when you don't even realize your own logical fallacies (annoying too).

I know what I think. I know what I said. I know what you said. What
you said isn't what I said.

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I quoted what you said on Post #137,

And, you sound like a little kid trying to act like an adult. That
you're a college student isn't surprising. Lots of college students
think that they know quite a bit. The thing about a good education
is understanding how much there is out there that you don't know.
The more degrees you collect, the more you realize this.

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> Although, if I recall correctly you said more degrees expands the
> knowledge and allows people to think more rationally and critically.

I didn't say that. I said that the higher up you go with education,
the more you learn how little you know.

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This shows 2 things.

Please do tell how the bold parts differ in meaning if I'm too much of a college student to understand this, and you're apparently much more knowledgeable in every other way possible because you have more experience.