Some stats for 1980 Wimbledon final (Borg-McEnroe)

K

krosero

Legend
I quickly went through the first four sets for the winners and added them to the winners I counted a few months ago in the tiebreak and fifth set.

Just winners for now, plus the aces and doubles.


Score: Borg d. McEnroe 1-6, 7-5, 6-3, 6-7 (16-18 ), 8-6


Borg had 8 aces and 8 doubles.

McEnroe had 11 aces and 3 doubles (one of his aces was a 2nd serve).


Borg made 53 winners: 16 forehands, 15 backhands, 12 forehand volleys, 6 backhand volleys, and 4 smashes.

McEnroe made 54 winners: 5 forehands, 17 backhands, 15 forehand volleys, 14 backhand volleys, and 3 smashes.

Borg's winners by set: 5, 9, 6, 18, 15.
McEnroe's winners by set: 8, 13, 6, 20, 7.


Surprisingly, McEnroe has more backhand winners than Borg.

Borg has almost as many forehand volley winners as McEnroe does on the backhand side – 12 to 14.

McEnroe has far more backhand than forehand winners, which makes sense if Borg was always going to the backhand. But if he did, was that a good strategy on Borg’s part? Wouldn't that give McEnroe more opportunities to slice a backhand and approach?

McEnroe often went to Borg’s backhand, and that was a good strategy. In this case it’s not a surprise, however, that Borg managed nevertheless to get even more winners from his forehand, his more aggressive side.

McEnroe made as many winners (10) in the tiebreak as he did in the rest of the fourth set.

Borg, on the other hand, had only 3 winners in the tiebreak, next to 15 for the rest of the set (and 15 for the fifth set).

16 of Borg’s winners were service returns. Seven were FH's (two off first serve). Nine were BH's (five off first serve). All the returns were passes.

14 of Borg’s winners were passing shots, other than returns: 8 were FH's.

7 of McEnroe’s winners were service returns. One was a FH off a second serve, and not a pass. The rest were backhands, all of them off first serve (one was not a pass).

12 of McEnroe’s winners were passing shots, other than returns: 9 were BH's.

McEnroe hit the only winning lob of the match, off the forehand.

See here for the 1981 final: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=165964

[Service percentages added below]
 
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K

krosero

Legend
Another observation. According to the winners by set, McEnroe's aggression was high in the first, second and fourth sets, but it flagged significantly in the third and fifth. Borg's aggression was low in the first three sets and high in the last two.

Borg's winners by set: 5, 9, 6, 18, 15.
McEnroe's winners by set: 8, 13, 6, 20, 7.
 
U

urban

Legend
Interesting analysis. I still think, Mac lost it in the second, when he was still the better player. He gave up his serve all of a sudden, after having some good chances to break himself. He then fell to sleep a bit, and woke up at the end of the fourth, when he broke back with some brilliant shotmaking and carried through his momentum in the famous tie-break. Borg's biggest achievement in the match was, that he kept his cool, and served like a god in the fifth.
 
K

krosero

Legend
urban said:
Interesting analysis. I still think, Mac lost it in the second, when he was still the better player. He gave up his serve all of a sudden, after having some good chances to break himself. He then fell to sleep a bit, and woke up at the end of the fourth, when he broke back with some brilliant shotmaking and carried through his momentum in the famous tie-break.
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I would agree with this in general terms, though if I would add anything, it's that the situation came about because Borg was somewhat asleep himself in the first set and a half.

The next year (which I plan to get stats from) the situation started differently, with Borg sharp at the beginning but McEnroe strong at the end.

urban said:
Borg's biggest achievement in the match was, that he kept his cool, and served like a god in the fifth.
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In the fifth he made 23 of 31 first serves, or 74%. That's actually eight percentage points lower than he served in the tiebreak (and before that I have no serving stats), but he remembers the fifth set as some of his strongest serving. When he defeated Connors at the '81 USO he said it was his strongest serving since this fifth set against McEnroe.
 
K

krosero

Legend
Fifth-set stats

Not sure if I posted these on this forum a few months ago, so here they are:


Borg had 2 aces and no doubles.
McEnroe had 4 aces and 2 doubles.

Borg made 15 winners, McEnroe 7.


Borg served at 74% in the fifth set, actually eight points lower than in the tiebreak. He made 23 of 31 first serves and won five games at love. He went down love-30 in the opening game and won the next 19 points on his serve; he lost a point at 4-all and then won another 9 straight before breaking McEnroe in the last game.

McEnroe made 31 of 45 first serves, or 69%, a remarkably high percentage for a set he lost (it was 4 points higher than he’d served in the tiebreak).


Borg won 21 of 23 points on first serve, or 91%. He won 7 of 8 points on second serve, or 88%.

McEnroe won 22 of 31 points on first serve, or 71%. He won 7 of 14 points on second serve.


Borg drew a return error from McEnroe with 9 first serves and one second serve (thus drawing errors on 10 out of a possible 31).

McEnroe drew a return error from Borg with 12 first serves and two second serves (thus drawing errors on 14 out of a possible 45).


Borg came in behind all his first serves and stayed back on all his second serves. He also came to net 7 other times, all of them in his own service games, and won six.

McEnroe came to net behind every one of his serves (first and second). He didn’t make it past the service line in Borg’s service games, but he did hit volleys from no-man’s land twice (with a 1-1 record).
 
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K

krosero

Legend
I’ve watched the match again to get the service percentages for all five sets, and the Total Points Won.

I also proofed my original work and made corrections above. The total winners are fine, but one of McEnroe’s passing shots should have been marked down as a return.

I also got new information on the return winners, and put it in the OP.

And I dropped McEnroe by two aces, because Borg barely nicked them with the edge of his racquet.

As a side note, I noticed maybe 7 or 8 shots from each player – not serves – that could have been judged winners, because the opponent either tipped them with the edge of his racquet or simply failed to get them as far as the net.

I’ll put the service stats in another post.
 
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K

krosero

Legend
Service percentages, total points won

Borg served at 62%, making 122 of 196 first serves.

McEnroe served at 63%, making 113 of 180 first serves.

Borg’s first-serve percentage by set:
15/23 (65%)
33/50 (66%)
17/40 (43%)
34/52 (65%)
23/31 (74%)

McEnroe’s first-serve percentage by set:
12/24 (50%)
20/33 (61%)
12/24 (50%)
38/54 (70%)
31/45 (69%)

Borg won 131 of 196 points on serve (67%). He won 87 of 122 points on first serve (71%) and 44 of 74 on second (59%).

McEnroe won 119 of 180 points on serve (66%). He won 77 of 113 points on first serve (68%) and 42 of 67 on second (63%).


Borg converted 4 of 14 break points. In the first four sets he converted 3 of 6.

McEnroe converted 3 of 13 break points. He earned all of his break points in the first four sets.

Borg got his first serve into play on 12 of 13 break points (92%). Each of the 3 times that McEnroe broke him, he had to do it on a first serve. The most critical break points of the match were at 4-all in the second set; three times McEnroe had a chance to serve for a two-set lead, and each time Borg drew a return error with a strong first serve. At 4-2 in the third set, Borg faced 5 break points and put in 4 first serves, drawing two return errors with those serves.

(That game went to 7 deuces and contained 20 points. The 34-point tiebreak has gotten all the attention, and it’s mostly forgotten that they played such a long game earlier in the match. If McEnroe had won any of his break points he would have gotten even in the third set, possibly changing the course of the match).

McEnroe got his first serve into play on 8 of 14 break points (57%), including match point. He was broken twice on first serve and twice on second serve.


Borg got a return error from McEnroe with 48 serves (10 were second serves), of which I judged 10 as service winners.

McEnroe got a return error from Borg with 59 serves (20 were second serves), of which I judged 9 as service winners.


Per the NY Times, the two men served at just "over 60%." McEnroe conceded only 7 points in his four service games of the first set. At exactly 3-all in the second, McEnroe had won 14 of his 41 service points on aces, service winners or errant returns. All those stats are also confirmed in my own counts.


By my own count, Borg won 192 points and McEnroe 184. The Times reported that Borg won 190 points, McEnroe 186.

The Times and I have the same number of points played in the match, 376. I got that number, and calculated the Total Points Won, by using the point scores of the individual games. I took care to allocate the points correctly, particularly in the service breaks.
 
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K

krosero

Legend
Forced and unforced errors

Subtracting the winners and aces from the Total Points Won:

Borg made 119 total errors. Of those I counted 59 return errors and 8 double-faults.

McEnroe made 131 total errors. Of those I counted 48 return errors and 3 double-faults.

That leaves Borg making 52 forced and unforced errors in exchanges that had at least a successful return, that is, in rallies. McEnroe made 80. That's a 28-point margin.
 
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M

Murray_Maniac

Banned
Thanks a lot for the stats! Ive probably rewatched this match more times than any other match. Very high quality. Imo, the greatest match of all time. All of these statistics make sense, but Im surprised at 2 statistics. There was 10 more winners in the 2nd set than the 3rd set. Imo, It feels like thoose 2 sets were equal. It must be only because there were 3 more games and more deuces. & Mcenroe had only 3 more aces. Mcenroe absolutely dominated Borg in the 1st set, especailly w/ the aces, but I also remember Borg getting a few aces in the latter sets, but it doesnt seem to match Mcenroe's amount. I think this is because Mcenroe hit more in the earlier sets, and Borg hit more in the latter sets. Could you please show the aces per player per set? Thanks.
 
K

krosero

Legend
Murray_Maniac said:
Thanks a lot for the stats! Ive probably rewatched this match more times than any other match. Very high quality. Imo, the greatest match of all time. All of these statistics make sense, but Im surprised at 2 statistics. There was 10 more winners in the 2nd set than the 3rd set. Imo, It feels like thoose 2 sets were equal. It must be only because there were 3 more games and more deuces. & Mcenroe had only 3 more aces. Mcenroe absolutely dominated Borg in the 1st set, especailly w/ the aces, but I also remember Borg getting a few aces in the latter sets, but it doesnt seem to match Mcenroe's amount. I think this is because Mcenroe hit more in the earlier sets, and Borg hit more in the latter sets. Could you please show the aces per player per set? Thanks.
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Borg's aces by set: 0, 4, 1, 1, 2
Mac's aces per set: 1, 1, 0, 5, 4

Borg's other unreturned serves: 5, 17, 7, 9, 10
Mac's other unreturned serves: 5, 13, 10, 17, 14

Mac had two near-aces that Borg nicked -- one in each of the last two sets.

Yes the second set was longer than the third (83 points vs. 64) and that explains most of the difference in winners. Not all, but I felt that Mac's quality of play fell somewhat in the third set. And both of them, actually, were serving at their lowest percentage, in that set.
 
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K

krosero

Legend
In the Mansdorf thread there are some stats from his 9-7 in the fifth loss to Edberg at 1990 Wimbledon. Mansdorf served 5 love games in the fifth, same as Borg here. He dropped 3 points in his first seven service games of the set, same as Borg.

I wonder if Mansdorf matched Borg's 19 straight points won on serve (which may be a fifth-set record, though I'm not aware of any author or statistician who mentions such a record).
 
K

krosero

Legend
Published stats

New York Times:

Borg collected $50,000 and made his score 82 victories in his last 84 singles matches since last year's Wimbledon final. His only losses have been to Tanner at the United States Open, which McEnroe won last September, and to Guillermo Vilas in the recent Nations Cup.
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In fact when Vilas beat Borg, the Montreal Gazette reported that it stopped a 49-match winning streak and that Borg fell one win short of Vilas' 50-match record.

Washington Post:

McEnroe lost only 13 points in his first nine service games. On a full third of the points he served, to that stage, Borg didn't get his return over the net…. McEnroe was getting frustrated, flailing at divots with his rackets, but he started to serve better again. Up to 4-3 in the fourth set, he put 15 of 17 first serves in court, some of them wicked in their pace, spin and angle.
He put in six of eight first serves at 4-4, but Borg broke him anyway.
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New York Times:

At 3-all in the second set, 14 of McEnroe's first 41 points on serve, or one in three, were won by aces, service winners or errant returns.
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New York Times:

Borg and McEnroe served well enough, getting in more than 60 percent of their first balls, to minimize the chance of breaks.
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Frank Deford's piece in Sports Illustrated:

McEnroe was a tiger on serve. He made no great percentage of first services—little more than half—but his second serve is probably the most effective in the sport, and Borg fared no better with it. In McEnroe’s first nine service games, through five-all in the second set, Borg made only 13 points and led exactly once, that at a perfunctory love-15. But off Borg, McEnroe had no fewer than four break points in two games of the second set—only he could not quite crack his opponent.
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SI again, referring to the tiebreak:

At one stretch they made eight straight first serves between them.
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All the match stats are confirmed in my own counts, except Deford's description of Mac serving at just over 50%. Like the Times I have both men serving over 60%.

Borg's service percentage was the highest that he had in any of their four Slam finals -- and the same was true for McEnroe.
 
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kiki

kiki

Banned
urban said:
Interesting analysis. I still think, Mac lost it in the second, when he was still the better player. He gave up his serve all of a sudden, after having some good chances to break himself. He then fell to sleep a bit, and woke up at the end of the fourth, when he broke back with some brilliant shotmaking and carried through his momentum in the famous tie-break. Borg's biggest achievement in the match was, that he kept his cool, and served like a god in the fifth.
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True.Much of the result was played down in the 2 nd set, the balance switched as Borg wake up and Johnny slip the ocasion.
 
borg number one

borg number one

Legend
Borg's fitness was key in the fifth set and he played with a torn stomach muscle (as I learned from PC1, as noted by Bill Scanlon) and he still served like that in the fifth set? That's mental toughness in spades. Borg said that he "never felt so bad in his whole life" after the 4th set. He said, "here I am at Wimbledon, playing John and I lost so many match points". He felt very down through the changeover and in that first service game, but he then slowly as he won that game, his mind got focused right back on the match and the task at hand. He went on to win 19 straight points on his serve during the fifth set. This is a key example of how Borg's serve was underrated. Look at when he was serving so well (this fifth set at Wimbledon, it doesn't get any bigger).

McEnroe learned a lot and grew a lot as a player due to that very important match. Borg said "finally the match everyone was wanting to see, me and John at Wimbledon". McEnroe on Borg in the fifth set ( I'm paraphrasing):
I realized just how great of a champion he was. After that fourth set,I thought, well, now he just has to lay down..I'm not saying I was hoping he would lay down, but I thought this guy, he's won Wimbledon already four times in a row, and now he's lost a number of match points in this tiebreaker, but to my surprise, he didn't. That's when I realized just how great a champion he was.
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wimbledon_mens_final_1980_681041.jpg


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Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
In fact when Vilas beat Borg, the Montreal Gazette reported that it stopped a 49-match winning streak and that Borg fell one win short of Vilas' 50-match record.
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interesting.

Borg's fitness was key in the fifth set and he played with a torn stomach muscle (as I learned from PC1, as noted by Bill Scanlon) and he still served like that in the fifth set?
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pretty skeptical on this. there's lots of amusing historical revisionism on this board. no reports of this in any accounts at the time or in any of the articles/books since on one of the most famous matches of all time & some fan on the internet somehow knows something no one else knew. right. this was 1980, not 1880. that info would have gotten out(like so many of Borg's 'injuries' over the years)

Its not a good idea to accept anything posters say here as fact. Nor former players for that matter(they seem to get so much wrong in their own books - Sampras says he skipped the '02 French! lol)
 
K

krosero

Legend
There was actually a report in the AP/Reuters just after the tournament, about Borg having pulled a stomach muscle: http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=5084,2994707&dq=borg+stomach+muscle&hl=en

When I started this thread, and even more recently when I did some more research on the match, I don't recall reading anything about an injury. Which just shows how much is becoming available online (I think when I started this thread even SI's Vault was not yet online). With famous matches like this it might be a good idea to check continually to see what's been added recently to places like Google News; a lot of forgotten material is likely to show up.

Anyway, like Moose, I never have recalled any mention of this injury elsewhere. Which means it has mostly not been taken a serious factor in Borg's win over McEnroe -- and I'm skeptical that it should be. Borg's stats are terrific in this match. His service stats are exceptional, among the best that he ever produced -- and I can only imagine that a truly serious injury in the abdomen would have to have a negative effect on serving.

I'm not saying it wasn't an issue at all for him. But a serious issue, I doubt it. For what it's worth, he even says in the article I linked to that it was no trouble by the time of the final.
 
K

krosero

Legend
On the Borg-Vilas issue, this was the report I mentioned, actually from the Associated Press:

In the first singles, Vilas played exceptionally well against a somewhat tired Borg, who served six double-faults, four during the first set.

The defeat ruined Borg’s chance of equaling Vilas’ record of winning 50 straight singles matches in 1977.

Borg had a string of 49, starting September 6, 1979 during the U.S. Open.

In 22 matches, Vilas and Borg played against each other, the Swede has won 17 and Vilas five.
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See http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...+borg's+chance+of+equaling+vilas+record&hl=en

Along with the Times report that Borg won 82 of 84 matches from 79W to 80W, this gives a sense of which matches were counted as official wins and losses in those days. The counts back then may differ from the ATP's count today and may also disagree with other counts today that include all of Borg's (and other players') tournaments, including many events that may have been regarded back then as exos.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
It's always hard dealing with history in any subject. For example I really do believe Connors had an injury before he played Ashe in the 1975 Wimbledon final. If that's the case it really sheds light on why Connors was so easily handled by Ashe in that final. But then again he did play great before the final as evidenced by his destruction of Roscoe Tanner.

We know now according Donald Dell that Jimmy Connors had a painkilling injection instead of the bathroom break we all believed in for years during the 1983 US Open.
 
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borg number one

borg number one

Legend
Good info. Thanks for the discussion on the stomach problem and that article. Moose, believe me I don't accept things as fact very easily. I definitely look at the source. What you say is true, that you shouldn't just accept what posters say as fact, but with PC1 I would make an exception. He's very reliable on topics such as this one and if he's not sure about something, he would let us know. The article says the following:

It's true that I have been playing with a pulled muscle in my stomach..but not that many people know about it---it was a big secret
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The article goes on to say that he injured it in the 3d round against Rod Frawley and that he had been having treatment on it every day, but Borg notes that in the final it did "not bother me at all".

I would make some observations about Borg's comment though:

1. I would be surprised if he did not feel anything at all. I've had this injury before and it can take quite a while to heal and if he was receiving treatment every day, would that five set final not have caused any issues?

2. If he had no pain at all, even then, he may have held back just a bit (in terms of really going after the serve) in order to avoid the risk of aggravating the injury which may have just gotten back under control.

3. Perhaps it did somehow heal enough just before the final and then it was adrenaline that kicked in especially in the 5th set.

Anyway, very interesting piece of information there. Thanks for the article link Krosero. Great research info on the topic and great thread as always.
 
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Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
do you guys really think PROFESSIONAL tennis players are ever really at 100%? how many 'injuries' do you think they are pretty much dealing with at all times?

Sorry, if someone can go an entire event with an 'injury' (& actually win it) it probably isn't that serious. And Borg had these 'stomach problems' in 1976 as well, right?

maybe we can start a thread on 'players that won majors injured.' it would be a very long list.

For example I really do believe Connors had an injury before he played Ashe in the 1975 Wimbledon final. If that's the case it really sheds light on why Connors was so easily handled by Ashe in that final.
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oh dear...
 
borg number one

borg number one

Legend
Moose Malloy said:
do you guys really think PROFESSIONAL tennis players are ever really at 100%? how many 'injuries' do you think they are pretty much dealing with at all times?

Sorry, if someone can go an entire event with an 'injury' (& actually win it) it probably isn't that serious. And Borg had these 'stomach problems' in 1976 as well, right?

maybe we can start a thread on 'players that won majors injured.' it would be a very long list.



oh dear...
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No, they're never 100%. I completely agree with that. Yet, this is not your average "minor" injury. He got treatment, in every possible way, every day after he sustained it in the 3d round. I do agree with you though that all winners at majors tend to have some little aches/pains, and other minor injuries. In the end, I think this one was more serious than a minor injury but perhaps it wasn't real bad. I shouldn't have used the word "torn" before, because as the article states it was a "pulled" stomach muscle. Torn sounds real bad. Technically there is a "tear". Anyway, Borg played through it obviously and we know more on this topic for having had this discussion than the general tennis public.

What is an abdominal muscle strain?
An abdominal muscle strain, also called a pulled abdominal muscle, is an injury to one of the muscles of the abdominal wall. A muscle strain occurs when the muscle is stretched too far. When this occurs the muscle fibers are torn. Most commonly, a strain causes microscopic tears within the muscle, but occassionally, in severe injuries, the muscle can rupture from its attachment.
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K

krosero

Legend
borg number one said:
Good info. Thanks for the discussion on the stomach problem and that article. Moose, believe me I don't accept things as fact very easily. I definitely look at the source. What you say is true, that you shouldn't just accept what posters say as fact, but with PC1 I would make an exception. He's very reliable on topics such as this one and if he's not sure about something, he would let us know. The article says the following:



The article goes on to say that he injured it in the 3d round against Rod Frawley and that he had been having treatment on it every day, but Borg notes that in the final it did "not bother me at all".

I would make some observations about Borg's comment though:

1. I would be surprised if he did not feel anything at all. I've had this injury before and it can take quite a while to heal and if he was receiving treatment every day, would that five set final not have caused any issues?

2. If he had no pain at all, even then, he may have held back just a bit (in terms of really going after the serve) in order to avoid the risk of aggravating the injury which may have just gotten back under control.

3. Perhaps it did somehow heal enough just before the final and then it was adrenaline that kicked in especially in the 5th set.

Anyway, very interesting piece of information there. Thanks for the article link Krosero. Great research info on the topic and great thread as always.
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All reasonable comments, BN1. But I'm still skeptical that this was anything serious -- at least by the time of the final. I can't recall any expert observers saying that Borg appeared to be dealing with a physical issue that was serious. They may have detected moments when he didn't play as well as other moments, but that is certainly routine. If the injury had any kind of effect it was minor, because it escaped everybody's attention. All of the reports about the final are filled with praise for the level of play.

About whether Borg took anything off his first serve due to his injury, it would be difficult to tell, because it was always a good idea to get the first serve in play and not let McEnroe see many second serves.

One way to tell whether Borg was sacrificing too much speed on first serves is to look at the success on first serves played. It was 71% in this match (80W). McEnroe's was actually lower, 68%, so I think Borg's figure was really very good.

Borg's figure was higher than he had in his two USO finals against Mac, we know that. I wish I could say something about their '81W final, but unfortunately the DVD of the BBC's coverage cuts out dozens of service faults, so it's impossible to calculate that stat.

But my guess is that Borg's success on first serve, in those two W finals against Mac, was higher in '80 than in '81.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
borg number one said:
Good info. Thanks for the discussion on the stomach problem and that article. Moose, believe me I don't accept things as fact very easily. I definitely look at the source. What you say is true, that you shouldn't just accept what posters say as fact, but with PC1 I would make an exception. He's very reliable on topics such as this one and if he's not sure about something, he would let us know. The article says the following:



The article goes on to say that he injured it in the 3d round against Rod Frawley and that he had been having treatment on it every day, but Borg notes that in the final it did "not bother me at all".

I would make some observations about Borg's comment though:

1. I would be surprised if he did not feel anything at all. I've had this injury before and it can take quite a while to heal and if he was receiving treatment every day, would that five set final not have caused any issues?

2. If he had no pain at all, even then, he may have held back just a bit (in terms of really going after the serve) in order to avoid the risk of aggravating the injury which may have just gotten back under control.

3. Perhaps it did somehow heal enough just before the final and then it was adrenaline that kicked in especially in the 5th set.

Anyway, very interesting piece of information there. Thanks for the article link Krosero. Great research info on the topic and great thread as always.
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Sorry for the problems but I did read it in Bill Scanlon's book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7s...m=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
borg number one

borg number one

Legend
krosero said:
All reasonable comments, BN1. But I'm still skeptical that this was anything serious -- at least by the time of the final. I can't recall any expert observers saying that Borg appeared to be dealing with a physical issue that was serious. They may have detected moments when he didn't play as well as other moments, but that is certainly routine. If the injury had any kind of effect it was minor, because it escaped everybody's attention. All of the reports about the final are filled with praise for the level of play.

About whether Borg took anything off his first serve due to his injury, it would be difficult to tell, because it was always a good idea to get the first serve in play and not let McEnroe see many second serves.

One way to tell whether Borg was sacrificing too much speed on first serves is to look at the success on first serves played. It was 71% in this match (80W). McEnroe's was actually lower, 68%, so I think Borg's figure was really very good.

Borg's figure was higher than he had in his two USO finals against Mac, we know that. I wish I could say something about their '81W final, but unfortunately the DVD of the BBC's coverage cuts out dozens of service faults, so it's impossible to calculate that stat.

But my guess is that Borg's success on first serve, in those two W finals against Mac, was higher in '80 than in '81.
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Absolutely Krosero. I agree, with the caveat that a very high first serve percentage may have also been due to him basically taking something off of it (not going for full pace and the lines). There's no way for us to measure this now, but my impression is that I've seen him serve harder in many other matches at Wimbledon. Yet, we basically agree, these are "distinctions" without a real difference so to speak. Thanks.
 
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K

krosero

Legend
Moose Malloy said:
wonder if the stomach pull story made it into this new book.

http://www.amazon.com/Epic-McEnroe-...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1304204416&sr=1-3
Click to expand...
It has. I've just read parts of it, but he (Cronin) mentions it when talking about the Borg-Gottfried semifinal. He says that Borg was playing with a pulled stomach muscle and that he was trying to shorten points and volleying reasonably well for someone who spent as much time as he did behind the baseline.

Borg said himself that by the time of the semifinal his two-hander was starting to click after he'd had some trouble with low bounces in the first week (I think that was in the Times). So Borg himself, for what it's worth, thought his level of play was improving.
 
Last edited:
K

krosero

Legend
Moose Malloy said:
wonder if the stomach pull story made it into this new book.

http://www.amazon.com/Epic-McEnroe-...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1304204416&sr=1-3
Click to expand...
One problem I have with Cronin's book is the number of factual errors I've found, and I've only read parts of it.

- He's got Borg losing to Connors at Pepsi a few weeks after Wimbledon, when of course that tournament took place months before Wimbledon, and Borg beat Connors.

- He's got Borg beating Vilas in the '79 RG semis, rather than Gerulaitis

- He's got Borg and Mac meeting in the round-robin of the 1979 Masters, when it was actually a semifinal

- He writes that Borg's 41-match winning streak at Wimbledon was eventually broken by Federer, when of course Federer stopped at 40

- He reports that Borg led McEnroe 242-240 in total points won, at 80W. The New York Times reported a lead of 190-186 (I've got 192-184).

These are really blunders. There are a good number of fascinating quotes in the book, but you would think that for a book like this you could at least get a decent fact-checker.
 
J

juan guzman

Rookie
Cronin mentioned that Mcenroe in his first Davis Cup played doubles and beat with Brian Gottfried the Chilean team of Cornejo Prajoux instead of Fillol Prajoux.

When speaking about Mc Enroe in Davis Cup against Argentina in 80 he put the results of 83 instead of 1980.

In spite of the errors its a good read.
 
K

krosero

Legend
borg number one said:
Absolutely Krosero. I agree, with the caveat that a very high first serve percentage may have also been due to him basically taking something off of it (not going for full pace and the lines). There's no way for us to measure this now, but my impression is that I've seen him serve harder in many other matches at Wimbledon. Yet, we basically agree, these are "distinctions" without a real difference so to speak. Thanks.
Click to expand...
One thing we can all agree on is what a shame it is we don't have boxscores for 1980 like the ones today, showing what Borg's top speed was on his first serve, for example, or McEnroe's average speed.

That would still not tell us directly that Borg took speed off his serve due to an injury (I think it's far more likely that he, like everyone else, simply feared giving McEnroe a look at second serves; I think after the '79 final Borg said he did that with Tanner because Tanner was having a crack at his second serve; I recall reading that somewhere). But at least we would have the radar readings and we could compare to other Borg and McEnroe matches of the time period.
 
borg number one

borg number one

Legend
krosero said:
One thing we can all agree on is what a shame it is we don't have boxscores for 1980 like the ones today, showing what Borg's top speed was on his first serve, for example, or McEnroe's average speed.

That would still not tell us directly that Borg took speed off his serve due to an injury (I think it's far more likely that he, like everyone else, simply feared giving McEnroe a look at second serves; I think after the '79 final Borg said he did that with Tanner because Tanner was having a crack at his second serve; I recall reading that somewhere). But at least we would have the radar readings and we could compare to other Borg and McEnroe matches of the time period.
Click to expand...

I tend to think he would take a bit off the serve, if I had to choose. Why? He says he was feeling it in the semifinal. That's my hunch, but I may be wrong.

I've thought the same thing Krosero, I wish we had an apples to apples comparison of things like service speed and groundstroke speed. I think many would be surprised to see what the top readings were in decades past, especially when you are taking readings one every serve at a tournament. For example, who knows what Tanner's top speed really was? Thanks for all your efforts on these stats plus video Krosero, I really enjoy them and always learn more.
 
K

krosero

Legend
The experts pick - surprise - Borg

Here's an article from 1980 about whether Borg can win his 5th straight title. Interviews with Laver, Budge, Pancho, Trabert, Kramer, Danzig, Hopman, Talbert.

The experts pick - surprise - Borg
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...95525&dq=the+experts+pick+surprise+borg&hl=en

All of them agree that Borg is not a natural or classical grasscourt player, but Hopman stands out by saying, "it seems ridiculous to keep saying that grass is not his surface, not after he has won it four straight years."
 
K

krosero

Legend
The New York Times has a fuller version of that article ("Can Bjorn Borg Run His Streak to Five Straight Wimbledons"). It includes comments from one more person, Dick Savitt (1951 Wimbledon champion). He was the only one who picked against Borg, saying that his luck could not hold up one more year.

Laver said this too: "His game on grass is not as good as it is on clay, but that won't matter because lots of players today are not effective volleyers, so he can stay back and do what he does best -- spray those forehands and backhands from the baseline."

Budge's extra comments: "Borg seems to be a slow starter and I think the way to beat him is to go in on his short balls and punch them into the corners to break him out of his rhythm. Players like Kramer and Lew Hoad would be able to do it."

Cronin quotes the Times article and he adds a comment made by Vijay Amritraj during the tournament: “Borg is a genius, there is no question about it. He has an uncanny ability to raise his game on the most important points. He is most dangerous when in danger. For a long time I thought Laver was the best player I would ever see, but I think Borg has surpassed him already, and he is still improving.” (183)

Cronin also gives a quote from Amritraj from 1979, the year Vijay lost to Borg in five sets: “This man is a genius. Any man who wins a tournament four times on a surface he plays once a year is an absolute genius.” (140)
 
U

urban

Legend
I feel it a bit strange, that many current writers begin to write on the rivalries of the 70s, where they probably don't have first hand experience. Hopefully the researched facts are solid. Is the current era not interesting enough?
 
gpt

gpt

Professional
krosero said:
One problem I have with Cronin's book is the number of factual errors I've found, and I've only read parts of it.

- He's got Borg losing to Connors at Pepsi a few weeks after Wimbledon, when of course that tournament took place months before Wimbledon, and Borg beat Connors.

- He's got Borg beating Vilas in the '79 RG semis, rather than Gerulaitis

- He's got Borg and Mac meeting in the round-robin of the 1979 Masters, when it was actually a semifinal

- He writes that Borg's 41-match winning streak at Wimbledon was eventually broken by Federer, when of course Federer stopped at 40

- He reports that Borg led McEnroe 242-240 in total points won, at 80W. The New York Times reported a lead of 190-186 (I've got 192-184).

These are really blunders. There are a good number of fascinating quotes in the book, but you would think that for a book like this you could at least get a decent fact-checker.
Click to expand...

I have noticed that many tennis books have factual errors such as these.
Bud Collins Encyclopedia (all editions) is full of such errors.
Agassi in his book 'Open', refers to Nastase being a Wimbledon Champion. Seems to me that errors such as these would be so easy to avoid with some care and research.

This thread is a very interesting read, thanks for the great contributions. Apologies in advance for straying of topic.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
urban said:
I feel it a bit strange, that many current writers begin to write on the rivalries of the 70s, where they probably don't have first hand experience. Hopefully the researched facts are solid. Is the current era not interesting enough?
Click to expand...

I would guess that many of the current writers who may not have experienced it probably find those times fascinating and want to write about it because the times seem very interesting. It was certainly an eclectic time with respect to tennis styles and personalities.
 
K

krosero

Legend
pc1 said:
I would guess that many of the current writers who may not have experienced it probably find those times fascinating and want to write about it because the times seem very interesting. It was certainly an eclectic time with respect to tennis styles and personalities.
Click to expand...
I think part of the interest in 1980-81 is that Borg, McEnroe and Connors were all fighting it out closely at the top and producing great matches. In the semis at Wimbledon and the USO there would be some dramamatic match, involving Connors, and then in the finals you'd get an equally dramatic story with Borg and Mac. Three alltime greats, all of them in their prime. And all of them outsize personalities.

In 1990 I remember talking to someone who wasn't even a big tennis fan, but he told me what an interesting time it was in tennis when Borg and McEnroe and Connors were all at the top and meeting in the latest rounds at Wimbledon and the USO.
 
U

urban

Legend
Clearly, that were entertaining times, but today we have the Nadal-Fed-Djokovic triangle. Could be good stuff to write a book on, based on own observations at the big events. I am curious, what new angle a new book can bring on the 70s or 80s. Is it a comparison with the current era, is it a retrospective view from the current position? Can we get newer insights on this gone era? We have a lot of books by contemporary writers on that era, including those of Bodo or Richard Evans about Nastase, Mac or Open tennis.
That said, i tnink, a good study is still out on the 'Tennis boom' phenomenon, with researching the aspects of the almost hysterical growth of tennis, with discussing the role of WCT, ATP and the organsatorical turmoils of the early open years, with some historical-sociological-cultural underlines in the style of the Baltzell book about the Gentlemen era.
 
borg number one

borg number one

Legend
urban said:
Clearly, that were entertaining times, but today we have the Nadal-Fed-Djokovic triangle. Could be good stuff to write a book on, based on own observations at the big events. I am curious, what new angle a new book can bring on the 70s or 80s. Is it a comparison with the current era, is it a retrospective view from the current position? Can we get newer insights on this gone era? We have a lot of books by contemporary writers on that era, including those of Bodo or Richard Evans about Nastase, Mac or Open tennis.
That said, i tnink, a good study is still out on the 'Tennis boom' phenomenon, with researching the aspects of the almost hysterical growth of tennis, with discussing the role of WCT, ATP and the organsatorical turmoils of the early open years, with some historical-sociological-cultural underlines in the style of the Baltzell book about the Gentlemen era.
Click to expand...

Great idea Urban. I know I'd like to read such a book!
 
M

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
In the Mansdorf thread there are some stats from his 9-7 in the fifth loss to Edberg at 1990 Wimbledon. Mansdorf served 5 love games in the fifth, same as Borg here. He dropped 3 points in his first seven service games of the set, same as Borg.

I wonder if Mansdorf matched Borg's 19 straight points won on serve (which may be a fifth-set record, though I'm not aware of any author or statistician who mentions such a record).
Click to expand...

He had streaks of 13 & 14 points won on serve in the 5th set.
 
A

Aobanoniji

Guest
I'll always remember the 1980 Wimbledon final. I was a teenager and I had heard about the match but didn't get to see it. Then someone told me they were going to show it again. I remember jumping on my bike and racing home to get there in time to see it. The tie-break was amazing. Will never forget it.
 
K

krosero

Legend
Additional stats

krosero said:
Borg won 131 of 196 points on serve (67%). He won 87 of 122 points on first serve (71%) and 44 of 74 on second (59%).

McEnroe won 119 of 180 points on serve (66%). He won 77 of 113 points on first serve (68%) and 42 of 67 on second (63%).
Click to expand...
Success on serve in rallies of 2 or more good shots:

Borg 59% on first serve (50/85) and 53% on second (25/47).
McEnroe 44% on first serve (28/64) and 49% on second (21/43).

So Borg, if he could get McEnroe's first serve back, had a better than even chance of winning the point. Problem was getting it back; McEnroe got 49 "free points" with his first serve.
 
K

krosero

Legend
This was Borg's third five-set victory in a Wimbledon final (after 1977 and '79). Newcombe had five-set victories in two finals (1970-71), and Federer has had two victories as well (2007 and '09).

No one else has won more than one 5-set final since the Challenge Round was abolished in 1922.
 
K

krosero

Legend
No one has won the French final three times in five-setters, since the tournament went international in 1925. But a few men have done it twice.

Borg - 1974, 1981
Von Cramm - 1934, 1936
Lacoste - 1927, 1929
 
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