My intention was not to dwell on the legs as the primary power source - I just wanted to point out that's where the kinetic chain starts, and there are other links that come into play before the ball is struck. The analysis of how much each link in the kinetic chain contributes has already been done by Brian Gordon.
Question for Will Hamilton (& others who promote laid back wrist on forehand contact)
- Thread starter spacediver
- Start date
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
These movements are completely independent of each other. The hand/wrist just sits on the forearm and enjoys the ride. Of cause it can move itself by using four different motions, see please picture.
Question with respect to the above figure. I realize you're suppose to keep the arm and wrist loose and as you uncoil and swing forward the looseness of the wrist causes it to lay back. My question is, what is the direction of this laid back wrist ****? Is it via:
1) wrist extension?
2) supination?
3) both 1 and 2 together
I was doing #1 alone, but I read somewhere it's supposed to include #2 as well. This kinda sees to make sense in that including supination would allow for a greater total rotation of the wrist when finishing with the windshield wiper follow through. However, when I try this it feels rather uncomfortable on the wrist and seems like there is potential to cause wrist injury if supination is also included in the lay back. So which is it?
5263
G.O.A.T.
for me it is more ulnar deviation with some extention, along with the sup.
Funbun
Professional
What? Supination? Why would you ever supinate for the forehand?
I think you meant ulnar deviation for number 2. If you were to supinate, you would have your racquet awkwardly above your hand on your forehand finish.
If you look at the picture, supination means that you essentially overturn/rotate your hand outwards from your body. That would be extremely uncomfortable during a forehand.
On the other hand, ulnar deviation would mean that you have your hand positioned at an angle outward from your arm.
Personally, I think it's both wrist extension and ulnar deviation, for the takeback before the swing.
Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6EY7FxgUg&feature=relmfu
If you go to the latter part of the video, you'll see that Nadal positions his hand in both wrist extension and ulnar deviation right before he swings. Subsequently, he lets loose the WW variation swing, over the head.
I think the key is to be loose. Don't try to hold a wrist position too tightly, but loosen up and you'll get that spin. The key for any forehand, I think, is to be plain loose.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Sorry I didn't mean supinate on the finish, I meant supinate on the takeback so there is greater total range of motion as you pronate to finish.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Take a look at this video, http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...sicsearch=1&ATT=&LineNbr=23&StartRow=221&ts=1
isn't he saying laid back wrist = supination?
Djokovic front of the forearm is facing the sky. To bring forearm into this position we have to supinate as much as possible. The extreme supination before impact also allows us to use pronation during impact very efficiently (to create topspin).
To produce power, Djokovic also uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. Thus, before that, he should provide maximum of the wrist radial deviation. The main concern, when we bend the wrist back, should be wrist radial deviation. Involuntarily there also is some wrist extension, which we should keep in more stable position (like Djokovich does), otherwise it can open racket face and ball goes out. Djokovic keeps the wrist in bent back position by using wrist extension.
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Hi bhupaes, Please read my previous post.
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Hi Chas Tennis,
Thank you for very interesting links.
Can you please explain how we should use wrist radial and ulnar deviations? Because my russian english is not good enough for this task.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Djokovic front of the forearm is facing the sky. To bring forearm into this position we have to supinate as much as possible. The extreme supination before impact also allows us to use pronation during impact very efficiently (to create topspin).
To produce power, Djokovic also uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. Thus, before that, he should provide maximum of the wrist radial deviation. The main concern, when we bend the wrist back, should be wrist radial deviation. Involuntarily there also is some wrist extension, which we should keep in more stable position (like Djokovich does), otherwise it can open racket face and ball goes out.
are u blind? there is more flexion than ulnar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EIkL7bv0BQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsj5PnnqI60
i am sure if you ask one of these guys whether is it flexion or ulnar. they will say flexion
the analogy with the hammer /axe is totally wrong
You gave us example of the Djokovic FH with basically locked wrist. I’m trying to discuss active wrist (not locked) actions.
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DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Fully supinating the wrist on the takeback and dragging the racquet to meet the ball in this wrist position causes pain on my outer wrist, anyone else have this?
Toly, I think you are using the hammer analogy incorrectly in this situation. It is true that in post #107 the picture has the ulnar side of the wrist facing the ball. But it is a huge leap to go on from there to say that active radial to ulnar deviation is being used to power the stroke.
The video of Dj posted by pushing_wins is a much better representation of what's going on, IMO. The wrist is definitely not static - it is flexing quite a bit, and mostly passively, if as I believe Dj holds his wrist as loosely as feasible. Also there is a massive amout of upper body rotation, upper arm rotation, and biceps action. You can see Dj's flexed bicep, toiling away, even in the picture you have presented in post #107.
Compared to these massive power sources, the forearm is a puny thing. By positioning it so that the ulnar side either fully or partially faces the incoming ball, what you are doing is bracing the wrist so it can withstand the force due the impact with the ball, and provide the optimal hand-body connection. However, the pure forearm movements of pronation and various deviations, actively done, provide very important control by precisely guiding the racquet head through the right positions. Of course, these active movments will also provide a small amount of power. I think of the small muscles as the rudder, and the big muscles as the engine, in ground strokes.
Now you know everything I know and believe.
Mahboob Khan
Hall of Fame
I fail to see supination on the takeback. There is a bit of pronation on the takeback (thumb going inward, palm going outward facing the backfence), then on the followthrough there is pronation to bring the ball down in the court.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Terminology Pronation & Supintaion
Some of us may be attaching different meanings to the terms pronation & supination-
Terminology –
After some months of trying to get my terms straight regarding pronation in order to understand internal shoulder rotation, I was disturbed to learn something new that I do not understand that well yet.
I had estimated my range of motion for pronation to be about 180°. Try estimating yours.
On the internet the ROM for pronation is listed as about 90°, a big inconsistency.
I had believed that pronation was simply elbow to wrist rotation of the forearm - for a person looking at his own right hand - in a clockwise direction. [Of course, CC & CCW for a second person depends on the viewer's position.] Supination would be in the opposite direction, CCW for a person’s own arm. It appears so in Manual of Structural Kinesiology, C.Thomson, R.Floyd. page 107.
However, a few weeks ago I looked up range of motion + supination + pronation and found that the numbers are 80-90° or so for each. For range of motion pronation & supination are referenced to the anatomical position. For measurement the elbow is bent and the thumb up position is 0° for both supination and pronation.
PRONATION
http://davisplus.fadavis.com/starke...Elbow (Pivot Joint): Pronation and Supination
http://www.cdc.gov/NCBDDD/video/JointROM/ElbowPronation/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_motion
For range of motion pronation is listed as 80-90° and supination is also listed as about the same 80-90°.
I have not sorted out whether the terms pronation & supination have different usage for 1) movement and 2) angular position or range of motion. I have seen the ROM usage clearly intended in one older threads. I am unclear on most others. ??
Some of us may be attaching different meanings to the terms pronation & supination-
Terminology –
After some months of trying to get my terms straight regarding pronation in order to understand internal shoulder rotation, I was disturbed to learn something new that I do not understand that well yet.
I had estimated my range of motion for pronation to be about 180°. Try estimating yours.
On the internet the ROM for pronation is listed as about 90°, a big inconsistency.
I had believed that pronation was simply elbow to wrist rotation of the forearm - for a person looking at his own right hand - in a clockwise direction. [Of course, CC & CCW for a second person depends on the viewer's position.] Supination would be in the opposite direction, CCW for a person’s own arm. It appears so in Manual of Structural Kinesiology, C.Thomson, R.Floyd. page 107.
However, a few weeks ago I looked up range of motion + supination + pronation and found that the numbers are 80-90° or so for each. For range of motion pronation & supination are referenced to the anatomical position. For measurement the elbow is bent and the thumb up position is 0° for both supination and pronation.
PRONATION
http://davisplus.fadavis.com/starke...Elbow (Pivot Joint): Pronation and Supination
http://www.cdc.gov/NCBDDD/video/JointROM/ElbowPronation/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_motion
For range of motion pronation is listed as 80-90° and supination is also listed as about the same 80-90°.
I have not sorted out whether the terms pronation & supination have different usage for 1) movement and 2) angular position or range of motion. I have seen the ROM usage clearly intended in one older threads. I am unclear on most others. ??
C
chico9166
Guest
If there is pronation in the backswing and forward swing, then it would seem there needs to be supination in between. To be precise, it occurs when the butt cap aligns to the ball. Pronation-supination-pronation cycle.
My 02 cents.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Reply was FYI , Interpretating Frames, Speculating UD on Forehand
I have not looked at the forehand yet. I mentioned the UD information for general interest.
I'm still back on terminology and the serve, not yet the forehand. In my serve videos I think I see the ulna deviation that you have mentioned in other serve threads. Joint movement in serve videos does not necessarily mean muscle contributions so I'm not sure of the power part UD plays. I had also noticed earlier as I mentioned in this reply that the forearm muscles used for ulna deviation are stronger ones.
I have not followed this thread very closely especially the wrist replies & UD wrist issues. Your Djokovic picture seems to show ulna deviation.
How much does angular position matter in a single picture/frame? In interpreting pictures/videos the velocity/angular velocity achieved and not the particular position/angular position of the hand is most important for racket head speed. Things might accelerate rapidly and then spend a lot of time at the higher velocity changing angular position. Early on as soon as they accelerate the racket head speed is up.........what is seen?... That is one reason the Tennispeed display in my reply is a good way to display strokes. Unfortunately 3D is probably necessary to do it right as arm rotation and translation get mixed up with one camera.
Speculating if used considerably for the forehand the ulna deviation muscles would be stretched with a lose wrist at the beginning of the forehand's motion. First, maybe downward motion stretches the UD muscles as the lat muscle may pull the upper arm down for power (stop action DVR Del Porto). Then the body turn stretches the UD muscles. Butt of the racket is toward the ball with stretched UD muscles and others?
For the serve I am having trouble seeing arm positions because the videos do not have markers. We need some pros or semi-pros with markers on their arms. High speed videos for grounds passes?
I have not looked at the forehand yet. I mentioned the UD information for general interest.
I'm still back on terminology and the serve, not yet the forehand. In my serve videos I think I see the ulna deviation that you have mentioned in other serve threads. Joint movement in serve videos does not necessarily mean muscle contributions so I'm not sure of the power part UD plays. I had also noticed earlier as I mentioned in this reply that the forearm muscles used for ulna deviation are stronger ones.
I have not followed this thread very closely especially the wrist replies & UD wrist issues. Your Djokovic picture seems to show ulna deviation.
How much does angular position matter in a single picture/frame? In interpreting pictures/videos the velocity/angular velocity achieved and not the particular position/angular position of the hand is most important for racket head speed. Things might accelerate rapidly and then spend a lot of time at the higher velocity changing angular position. Early on as soon as they accelerate the racket head speed is up.........what is seen?... That is one reason the Tennispeed display in my reply is a good way to display strokes. Unfortunately 3D is probably necessary to do it right as arm rotation and translation get mixed up with one camera.
Speculating if used considerably for the forehand the ulna deviation muscles would be stretched with a lose wrist at the beginning of the forehand's motion. First, maybe downward motion stretches the UD muscles as the lat muscle may pull the upper arm down for power (stop action DVR Del Porto). Then the body turn stretches the UD muscles. Butt of the racket is toward the ball with stretched UD muscles and others?
For the serve I am having trouble seeing arm positions because the videos do not have markers. We need some pros or semi-pros with markers on their arms. High speed videos for grounds passes?
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pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Toly, I think you are using the hammer analogy incorrectly in this situation. It is true that in post #107 the picture has the ulnar side of the wrist facing the ball. But it is a huge leap to go on from there to say that active radial to ulnar deviation is being used to power the stroke.
The video of Dj posted by pushing_wins is a much better representation of what's going on, IMO. The wrist is definitely not static - it is flexing quite a bit, and mostly passively, if as I believe Dj holds his wrist as loosely as feasible. Also there is a massive amout of upper body rotation, upper arm rotation, and biceps action. You can see Dj's flexed bicep, toiling away, even in the picture you have presented in post #107.
Compared to these massive power sources, the forearm is a puny thing. By positioning it so that the ulnar side either fully or partially faces the incoming ball, what you are doing is bracing the wrist so it can withstand the force due the impact with the ball, and provide the optimal hand-body connection. However, the pure forearm movements of pronation and various deviations, actively done, provide very important control by precisely guiding the racquet head through the right positions. Of course, these active movments will also provide a small amount of power. I think of the small muscles as the rudder, and the big muscles as the engine, in ground strokes.
Now you know everything I know and believe.
bhu,
do you believe there is flexion wrist release in a proper SW to W forehand?
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
c'mon. venus is not a good example. arms city
Power Player
Bionic Poster
wow..massive over thought..I could never hit a forehand thinking about all this.
Keep your wrist loose..it will naturally lay back when you swing to contact.
The motion on contact is through and check the time on your wrist.
The subtleties come with practice. I hit through and across the ball..it is like waving to somebody.
Keep your wrist loose..it will naturally lay back when you swing to contact.
The motion on contact is through and check the time on your wrist.
The subtleties come with practice. I hit through and across the ball..it is like waving to somebody.
Absolutely! But the amount of flexion will likely be different for different grips, IMO.
Try to use Federer grip.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
No I meant Rick Macci supinating the wrist on the takeback.
All the medical terms hurt my head. Too complicated for me.
I think of it this way:
1. When you pivot or ready racket on forehand side, position your forehand grip and position the wrist in an approximation of how you want it at contact. You can do this by putting your hand in a good contact position and then swing it backward to your pivot/racket read position. When you go into your pivot or get in stalking position, place your grip and wrist in roughly your contact position.
2. When you swing forward and rotate your hips/shoulder forward; the wrist may lay back a little bit if you keep it somewhat relaxed, but not a lot of movement. I will concede that the wrist does move a bit as the hips/shoulders,arm/wrist/ and finally racket start forward in kinetic chain, but I don't really think about it. Just keep arm/wrist loose and it happens naturally.
3. I don't consiously make any adjustment with wrist at any point in swing and let the wrist and arm take a passive role in the swing.
4. Well after contact and extension, the wrist and forearm may roll over (supinate forearm) in a relaxed followthru.
I try to keep it simple, position grip/wrist/hand early in prep; keep it relax, wrist/hand is passive (not locked) with no active roll in swing; lead with the top edge into contact (slightly closed); and extend thru, up and across into WW relaxed follow-thru; elbow finishes up and point toward opposite fence on best forehands. Wrist is passive thru swing and contact. To use an active wrist will result in way too many errors. Will Hamilton teaches this on FYB now and Vic Braden taught it 40 years ago - it was true then and it is true now.
I have never calculated the amout of flexion in my swing. I thought Flexion was a superhero. And, ulner deviation sounds like something that should be avoided as it cannot be good for you.
I think of it this way:
1. When you pivot or ready racket on forehand side, position your forehand grip and position the wrist in an approximation of how you want it at contact. You can do this by putting your hand in a good contact position and then swing it backward to your pivot/racket read position. When you go into your pivot or get in stalking position, place your grip and wrist in roughly your contact position.
2. When you swing forward and rotate your hips/shoulder forward; the wrist may lay back a little bit if you keep it somewhat relaxed, but not a lot of movement. I will concede that the wrist does move a bit as the hips/shoulders,arm/wrist/ and finally racket start forward in kinetic chain, but I don't really think about it. Just keep arm/wrist loose and it happens naturally.
3. I don't consiously make any adjustment with wrist at any point in swing and let the wrist and arm take a passive role in the swing.
4. Well after contact and extension, the wrist and forearm may roll over (supinate forearm) in a relaxed followthru.
I try to keep it simple, position grip/wrist/hand early in prep; keep it relax, wrist/hand is passive (not locked) with no active roll in swing; lead with the top edge into contact (slightly closed); and extend thru, up and across into WW relaxed follow-thru; elbow finishes up and point toward opposite fence on best forehands. Wrist is passive thru swing and contact. To use an active wrist will result in way too many errors. Will Hamilton teaches this on FYB now and Vic Braden taught it 40 years ago - it was true then and it is true now.
I have never calculated the amout of flexion in my swing. I thought Flexion was a superhero. And, ulner deviation sounds like something that should be avoided as it cannot be good for you.
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C
chico9166
Guest
During the backswing (from the separation of the hands to the bottom of the loop) high caliber players will tend to close the racquet face by turning the thumb down. (pronation) The degree to which this is done varies, but is almost universal.
Of course at the bottom of the loop, it's impossible to hit the ball with the racquet face pointed at the ground, so the upper arm rotates externally, and the forearm supinates (like holding a bowl of soup) as the the butt cap aligns to the ball.
This supinated position, extended wrist position, ulnar deviated wrist, is the catalyst for the explosive pronating/ wiping/ release of the arm.
Of course at the bottom of the loop, it's impossible to hit the ball with the racquet face pointed at the ground, so the upper arm rotates externally, and the forearm supinates (like holding a bowl of soup) as the the butt cap aligns to the ball.
This supinated position, extended wrist position, ulnar deviated wrist, is the catalyst for the explosive pronating/ wiping/ release of the arm.
Giannis
Rookie
You have continental/eastern grip, right?I do pronation and radial deviation
5263
G.O.A.T.
I do pronation and radial deviation
Mine is this way too, and I'm closer the SW in grip.
Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above, she cannot use wrist radial deviation, because this motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above, she cannot use wrist radial deviation, because this motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation.
sharapova hits a WTA push fh. i wouldnt be caught dead with a WTA push fh. if you dont know the difference, i suggest you look up some push/pull fh thread.
5263
G.O.A.T.
I think I agree, and it leads to not much TS.
I do need to ck the push/pull thread.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Sharapova probably hits much harder than you as well PW. As well as many here, not picking on just you, but if she could move better, she would be a dominant player.
She is one of the few WTA players I like to watch (muted) because she actually hits through the court with power.
She is one of the few WTA players I like to watch (muted) because she actually hits through the court with power.
Geology_Rocks!
Semi-Pro
This ''WTA push forehand sucks'' makes no sense, many of them have better forehands than most of us ever will.
This one more thing that only exists in TT.
Soderling hits with a push forehand.
This one more thing that only exists in TT.
Soderling hits with a push forehand.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
there is no concensus on what a push pull really is.
without slow motion analysis, do you see justin henins fh as being different from all the other WTA players?
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
very good point, but a misconception. i was thrown off by that as well. u can also bring up chardy.
however, the case of soderling, looking at it from the slow motion, the moment he starts his forward swing - he has corrected himself.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
there are many confounding factors to why she hits harder than me.
u should compare b4 sharapova to after sharapova. she would hit harder and heavier with less effort if she employed ATP technique
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
radial makes a lot more sense than ulnar. radial is byproduct of pronation. imo
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Agree. It's kind of funny to read though.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
No, I use SW for FH. I do a combination of pronating and a hint of radial deviation for the accross the body motion, ie rackethead on its way up.
For serving, I use conti, unroll my arm and pronate + the opposite action of radial deviation.
I have said in another post that the serve is like the opposite of FH to me, ie conti vs sw, flip the racket ends 180 degree and hit the ball above the head.
5263
G.O.A.T.
I'm not real clear on Push/pull, but
I do know Push does not relate to being a pusher if you are confusing that issue with a push Fh.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above, she cannot use wrist radial deviation, because this motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation.
perhaps shara has her own way, but from the picture it looks like it's perfectly OK if she does radial deviation (like pulling on a fishing rod) and pronates her arm inward simultaneously (as if to look at the back of her hand). Such action would keep the racket face facing the opponent longer, promoting more brushing action and window, (a la Clisters?), producing tons of topspin, no?.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above, she cannot use wrist radial deviation, because this motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation.
note the cramped right shouder. sure sign of a WTA fh release.
the shoulder plane tilts up and down like a see-saw, instead of rotating around.
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wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Hi Fedace. I'm a fan of the rock back, rock forward weight transfer method during the service motion. That will have your momentum moving forward, into the court as you jump, allowing you to hit the ball that you tossed into the court.
If you don't jump when you serve, then you'll have to dial back how aggressively you toss the ball.
- Will
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
hey will
when you do your fh lesson.........how can you mix together sharpova/ivanovic with, say, warinka? you dont notice the difference. even to the naked eye, the way they strike the ball is markedly different. its like night and day to me. you dont see that? i think we all see strokes differently. the only commonality i see are they are both struck on the forehand side.
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wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Hi,
There are plenty of differences in the way they hit. But there are also a lot of similarities. That's what we focus on. If the pros are doing the same few things when they hit a particular shot, well, it stands to reason that recreational players should do those same few things.
Each player has idiosyncrasies and that's why their forehands look different (sometimes very different), but if you peel back those idiosyncrasies the fundamentals are there.
- Will
All of these players are using wrist ulnar deviation Sharapova way, because there is only one way to do so.
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Geology_Rocks!
Semi-Pro
Yes, pusher and push forehand are not the same thing.
It's just that ever since people realized that most ATP players use a pull style forehand and most of WTA use a push style forehand a lot of members of TT say the push style is a inferior stroke, and it's not the case.
Each style has it's pros and cons.
Fedace
Banned
tell me of some pros that doesn't rock back. you just rock forward ?? how do you transfer your weight then ?
