More Chaos On Team Sphinx

Cindysphinx · Oct 27, 2011

We had another "Can you believe it?" moment on my team.

Ladies day league, first match of the season. I was out of town, so I asked Karen to babysit the team. This included putting out a lineup and administering the match.

Karen sends out a lineup and I see a problem. Hannah is in the lineup, but I know Hannah is nursing an ailing family member. I tell Karen she had better check with Hannah about whether she can play and registration if she stays in the lineup.

There is a flurry of messages, and Hannah is replaced. Karen attends the match but does not print a scoresheet, using a blank piece of paper instead.

We win all three courts. When Karen goes to enter the scores, she learns that Janet on Court One forgot to register. League rules say a court is defaulted if an unregistered player plays. Defaulting team owes other team $68 in case of default.

I write to league coordinator and opposing captain. I suggest that the scores be entered after Janet registers and we let the issue slide. The reason is that reversing the court won't change the outcome, the players did get to play the match, and there is no post-season.

Question: What should happen, and who should pay for the court?

AR15 · Oct 27, 2011

You were nice enough to bend the rules. But, defaulting team should still pay.

Cindysphinx · Oct 27, 2011

AR15 said:
You were nice enough to bend the rules. But, defaulting team should still pay.

I am the captain whose player didn't register. So it is a stretch to say I am being "nice."

AR15 · Oct 27, 2011

What does the $68 pay for?

Cindysphinx · Oct 27, 2011

It is the cost of two hours of court time ($17/player).

doubleshack · Oct 27, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
...League rules say a court is defaulted if an unregistered player plays. Defaulting team owes other team $68 in case of default....
Question: What should happen, and who should pay for the court?

I don't know how your rules are written, but I would interpret them as follows: League rules say a court is lost if an unregistered player plays. Teams that don't show up owe other team $68. So, you lose the court, but shouldn't have to pay the other team. Just because they used the word default for both meanings, shouldn't mean you have to pay up.

Topaz · Oct 27, 2011

Unless she's a new player she should have made sure she was registered. IMO it's a default and the player who didn't register should fork over the $.

AR15 · Oct 27, 2011

In our area, guest teams do not pay any court fees, so this is not an issue that ever comes up.

But, I think Topaz is correct.

Tennis Truth · Oct 27, 2011

Agree with Doubleshack.

$68 fee should apply for no shows, not for every instance of a default.

What if someone gets hurt and can't finish the match? Is that a default where one side pays all fees? What if someone gets hurt in the warm up? What if someone gets mad and just leaves before the match is over. What if the default takes place during the last two minutes of court time?

There are probably other numerous ways to get "defaulted" but I think the reason for the fee shifting is to discourage a team from not bringing enough players and having the other team waste their time and not have the promised match to play.

I think it is reasonable to ask the other team and coordinator for forgiveness, but if they say "no," then the result of the match should change, but not the fee shifting.

Cindysphinx · Oct 27, 2011

Tennis Truth said:
Agree with Doubleshack.

$68 fee should apply for no shows, not for every instance of a default.

What if someone gets hurt and can't finish the match? Is that a default where one side pays all fees? What if someone gets hurt in the warm up? What if someone gets mad and just leaves before the match is over. What if the default takes place during the last two minutes of court time?

There are probably other numerous ways to get "defaulted" but I think the reason for the fee shifting is to discourage a team from not bringing enough players and having the other team waste their time and not have the promised match to play.

I think it is reasonable to ask the other team and coordinator for forgiveness, but if they say "no," then the result of the match should change, but not the fee shifting.

Defaults = no-show or ineligible player/combination

Retirements = failing for any reason to complete a match

So they're different animals.

Interesting that no one thinks the acting captain should be on the hook for the fees. Had she printed the scorecard, she would have noticed the absence of the player's name. This could have been fixed with a quick on-line registration (or the opposing captains assent could have been obtained to let it slide).

Topaz · Oct 27, 2011

I do not put it on the acting captain because it is the player's responsibility to register herself. We pretty much all know the rule...like I said before, the only exception I could see is if the non-registered player was new. Was she?

Cindysphinx · Oct 27, 2011

No, definitely not new.

I think what happened is she sat down to register and went through the process. Then sh walked away without actually seeing that it went through.

Well, let this be a lesson to you players. I have teammates who register within minutes of receiving the team code.

And then I have people who need to be reminded for weeks.

Folks, it takes about three minutes to register. Do your captain a solid and register the first time she sends you the team code. What do you gain by waiting?

catfish · Oct 27, 2011

It's a USTA National Regulation that all players must be registered in Tennislink before they play in a match. Since the situation has been brought to the attention of the local league coordinator, he/she can't make a decision to overrule a national regulation.

1.04C(1) Official League Registration. TennisLink is the official system for registering teams and players for the USTA League. The player’s name must be listed on the team roster, as shown on TennisLink, prior to participation in any match. This includes any player who is added to a team roster after the commencement of local league play.

Lets say that the league coord. did allow the players to register after the match that thinking no harm would be done because it won't change the match outcome. Well, of course other players and captains will hear about it. They will then have a player forget to register and they will ask for the same favor. If the league coordinator says no, they will start screaming that Cindy and her team were shown favoritism....and you know the rest of the story.

Really, the responsibility is on the player. Like you said, it takes 2 minutes to register but someone always forgets and causes a match default. Happens all the time. Sometimes it's caught before the match and players register on an iPhone or laptop.

OrangePower · Oct 27, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
Interesting that no one thinks the acting captain should be on the hook for the fees. Had she printed the scorecard, she would have noticed the absence of the player's name. This could have been fixed with a quick on-line registration (or the opposing captains assent could have been obtained to let it slide).

Actually I for one do think the acting captain should be on the hook. It's her responsibility to check, and to only put registered players in the lineup.

The player in question may or may not have realized that her registration didn't go through... heck, it's even possible she thought you could register retroactively or something. The point is, captains (or their acting delegates) are expected to know the league rules, whereas not every player does.

As far as reporting the score goes... we have a similar rule about unregistered = automatic default in my area. And there is no way around it, even with the consent of the non-offending captain. A few years ago, I had a league match where I managed to pull out a win against a really good player. Several days later, we found out he had not registered in time, and I was awarded the match as a default. I would much rather have had the actual score stand, given how hard I worked for it, but that was not an option.

Big_Dangerous · Oct 27, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
It is the cost of two hours of court time ($17/player).

Ouch 17 per player... That's a little outrageous for I'm assuming just hard courts?

I might pay that for Grass or something, maybe clay if I was desperate to play on it, but never a hard court.

Cindysphinx · Oct 28, 2011

Big_Dangerous said:
Ouch 17 per player... That's a little outrageous for I'm assuming just hard courts?

I might pay that for Grass or something, maybe clay if I was desperate to play on it, but never a hard court.

They are indoor courts, usually hardcourts but sometimes clay. The weather here is too unpredictable for our league to be outdoors, even in summer. There is also no way to reserve outdoor public courts. So we play indoors, and we pay to do so.

No rain delays. No heat exhaustion. No sunburn. No wind. There are some advantages.

jht32 · Oct 28, 2011

Interesting, this is an entire match played in "good faith", should the points and score stand? Points played in "good faith" must stand, so ...

Cindy, what would you have agreed to if you were the opposing captain?

If I were the opposing captain, I would not insist on the default fees. My team members got to play. Secondly, if my team members that played on that court wanted to record a default on the scores, I would go along with them and insist on recording a default on the score line.

It's a middle of the road thing that is along the lines of doubleshack and tennistruth's posts. The unregistered player/team "should" be penalized on the score line, but not on the fees. I would also ask that the league rules be changed/reworded so that default fees are not assessed in situations like this.

Finally, who has to pay the default fees if the opposing team and the current league rules forces your team to pay the default fee? I think both the unregistered player and the acting captain are partially responsible. So I would just split it down the middle and make each pay $34.

Tennis Truth · Oct 28, 2011

No offense but some of the fault lies with the captain I think as well. You looked over the lineup and noticed that one player had a family conflict, but apparently you did not review your team listing on tennis link to make sure everyone had actually signed up. I would not blame your sub-captain at all, as she was doing you and the team a favor by pinch hitting. Making sure everyone had signed up is much more your job than hers. The player who played without signing up is most at fault, but I think you are 2nd as making sure people sign up is the regular captain's responsibility.

dcdoorknob · Oct 28, 2011

I also don't think there should be the need for someone to refund the $68. Those are court fees. The court was actually used during the specified time, and all involved actually played the match they paid to play.

If there isn't a need for someone to come up with the $, then there also isn't a specific need to properly assign blame. If the rule is too inflexible to allow for that though, then I guess I'd have the acting captain and the non-registered player split it since a case can be made for how either of them could or should have taken steps to avoid the whole thing.

Cindysphinx · Oct 28, 2011

Sorry, I'm not accepting any blame on this one.

The acting captain did the line-up, not me. She also changed it a few times as circumstances changed. I, on the other hand, was peering into a Droid while in the back of moving vehicles and standing on tennis courts. My unavailability and inability to supervise is why I turned the whole thing over to the acting captain.

Anyway, it was asked what I would do. I would (1) not charge default fees, and (2) let the match result stand. Why?

Simple. The match result doesn't matter. But if I can be a good egg and do another captain a favor, then she'll owe me a favor, right? You never know when that will matter.

vagabondma · Oct 28, 2011

As the captain of the team, it falls on you, whether you want to accept blame or not. Appointing an acting captain does not resolve you of the blame for playing a player who was not registered. However, your player, as a seasoned player, should have known better as well.

I would say the resolution is simple. You default the court in tennislink, but everyone agrees to pay the standard court fees since the court was used during the match by the four players.

Cindysphinx · Oct 28, 2011

vagabondma said:
As the captain of the team, it falls on you, whether you want to accept blame or not. Appointing an acting captain does not resolve you of the blame for playing a player who was not registered. However, your player, as a seasoned player, should have known better as well.

Seriously?

I think folks don't understand what it means to "delegate."

I was unavailable. Three time zones away, in fact. I was playing a tournament with an unpredictable schedule. If there were a problem, I was not in a position to resolve it.

That is why I didn't send out a line-up. When you hand off a match, it is best to hand off the whole match. That way players are not confused about who is handling things.

Did I put an ineligible player into the line-up? No. *'Cause I didn't put out a line-up.*

Honestly, this acting captain didn't just fall off of a turnip truck. She has captained before, which is why I asked her to be acting captain. And look at what she did. She sent out a line-up with an ineligible player in it. I, knowing that lady's personal circumstances, saw the email and caught the error in time. Then she sent out revised line-up with another ineligible player in it. Then she didn't print out a scorecard, choosing to bring a blank sheet of paper instead, even though the league rules say you're supposed to bring a scorecard.

And that's my fault?

If someone asks you to captain a match, you are accepting responsibility for match administration for that entire match. If you screw up and fail to exchange line-ups, for instance, and we default five courts, you and you alone will owe default fees for five courts ($340). If you can't handle the responsibility and discharge it competently, decline.

While I'm on a full-on rant, I will say that I have done everything imaginable to make it easy for acting captains. I keep a contact list on the team spreadsheet. I have a page on the team spreadsheet called "Guest Captains", which contains links and instructions for how to do things like print the scoresheet. I have a link to the local rules.

Yet people still show up with nothing other than a blank piece of paper, and it's my fault?

Spokewench · Oct 28, 2011

It is not Cindy's fault; she was not there and did nothing wrong by asking another member to act as Captain on her behalf. Geez people, Captains have lives and they don't get paid - remember? When you hand it over to another person to Captain, they take responsibility!

I Captain in a very rural area so we give a lot of leeway for being late, etc. I waited for a 4.0 singles match this year for approximately 45 minutes. The lady in question was on her way (from 2 hours away) and had a flat tire. So, I waited. We play on the weekends due to the distances we often have to travel so it was no big deal. I had already planned to play tennis most of the day anyway (we played a double header).

So, also, would I let the score stand; probably, just because I would see it as an oversight (that could have been avoided) but an oversight nonetheless and I would most likely agree to let the score stand.

OrangePower · Oct 28, 2011

If there was an acting captain assigned for this particular match, then it's definitely the acting captain's responsibility and not the captain's fault.

Delegating responsibility means, well, exactly that.

The exception would be if the acting captain called the captain to get instructions, and the captain gave instructions, in which case responsibility would shift back to the captain. But that's not what happened here.

catfish · Oct 28, 2011

OrangePower said:
If there was an acting captain assigned for this particular match, then it's definitely the acting captain's responsibility and not the captain's fault.

Delegating responsibility means, well, exactly that.

Agreed. Captains can't be at every match.

SuperLotto · Oct 28, 2011

Sorry, but if the person isn't on the roster that particular match doesn't count. I leave it up to the players to register. The captain is nice enough to captain and do all the work the least people can do it register for the team properly. But, in the final analysis, the buck stops with the captain, unfortunately. If everyone went and added people after the match it would raise holy H. I am on a few leagues, you register, you pay, you play. It's pretty simple. This after the fact stuff doesn't cut it.

SuperLotto · Oct 28, 2011

Oh by the way, the Fancy Nancy who got out there and played unrostered should be the one to cough up the $$.

Crusher10s · Oct 28, 2011

Topaz said:
I do not put it on the acting captain because it is the player's responsibility to register herself. We pretty much all know the rule...like I said before, the only exception I could see is if the non-registered player was new. Was she?

Topaz's advice is right on!

Court should be defaulted (Janet should get her ass chewed) AND she should have to pay the court fees as a lesson to her.

Datacipher · Oct 28, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
Seriously?

I think folks don't understand what it means to "delegate."

I was unavailable. Three time zones away, in fact. I was playing a tournament with an unpredictable schedule. If there were a problem, I was not in a position to resolve it.

That is why I didn't send out a line-up. When you hand off a match, it is best to hand off the whole match. That way players are not confused about who is handling things.

Did I put an ineligible player into the line-up? No. *'Cause I didn't put out a line-up.*

Honestly, this acting captain didn't just fall off of a turnip truck. She has captained before, which is why I asked her to be acting captain. And look at what she did. She sent out a line-up with an ineligible player in it. I, knowing that lady's personal circumstances, saw the email and caught the error in time. Then she sent out revised line-up with another ineligible player in it. Then she didn't print out a scorecard, choosing to bring a blank sheet of paper instead, even though the league rules say you're supposed to bring a scorecard.

And that's my fault?

YES. That is your fault Cindy...come on...you aren't 15! Look, that is the responsibility you take on when you decide to become Captain. Yes, sometimes that sucks, and directly, seems unfair. However, ultimate responsibility lies with you. That person filling in for you was doing you a favor. If she screws up, sorry...that' still YOUR problem. Choose wisely.

She was your personal choice when you couldn't fulfill your obligations...I really shouldn't have to explain these basic leadership/responsibility concepts to adults.

If you are the manager of a company, and you go away, and you put somebody else in charge, if they screw up, YES, you are ultimately responsible! If the President puts somebody in charge of something, and they screw up, YES, he bears responsibility for it. That is one of the very difficult things about being the leader, but it IS part of being a leader.

I really hope you can bring yourself to understand and see this...sincerely...it may feel unfair to you, but it's a basic part of responsibility.

Cindysphinx · Oct 28, 2011

Datacipher said:
YES. That is your fault Cindy...come on...you aren't 15! Look, that is the responsibility you take on when you decide to become Captain. Yes, sometimes that sucks, and directly, seems unfair. However, ultimate responsibility lies with you. That person filling in for you was doing you a favor. If she screws up, sorry...that' still YOUR problem. Choose wisely.

She was your personal choice when you couldn't fulfill your obligations...I really shouldn't have to explain these basic leadership/responsibility concepts to adults.

If you are the manager of a company, and you go away, and you put somebody else in charge, if they screw up, YES, you are ultimately responsible! If the President puts somebody in charge of something, and they screw up, YES, he bears responsibility for it. That is one of the very difficult things about being the leader, but it IS part of being a leader.

I really hope you can bring yourself to understand and see this...sincerely...it may feel unfair to you, but it's a basic part of responsibility.

Where are you people getting this nonsense from? It is really quite remarkable.

**It is basic common sense that if you agree to take on any task -- for hire or as a favor -- you are responsible if you botch it.**

If I ask you to wash my car as a personal favor and you are so stupid that you use steel wool, *you* are responsible for the damage.

If I ask you to act as captain, and you send out a match reminder telling everyone to be there at 4 pm instead of 2 pm, you eat the default fees.

Good grief.

doubleshack · Oct 28, 2011

You can delegate the task but not the responsibility. If you chose the wrong person to act as captain, then it is your fault.

As mentioned before, the four people showed up and played tennis, they should pay $17 each. I have no idea why they would ask you to pay the money. However, if the rules are so explicit that the defaulting team should pay, even though all 4 people played, then you are on the hook.

I'm with datachipher, its no fun being captain, but that is the responsibility you took on when you agreed to be captain.

Honestly though, are they really trying to stick you for the $68? Are they kidding? Sure, give them the win, but those 4 people played tennis, they should pay the court fee. I'm really having trouble why they would try to extract money from someone else. They played tennis, pay the court fees. 99% of the people I know, sign up in leagues to play tennis. Yes, we all want to win, but at the end of the day, we just want to play. And if you play, then you should pay for the facilities that you used.

g4driver · Oct 28, 2011

IMO, you should stop being a Captain, or learn to say "I screwed up." You blame others for your failures. You constantly have drama and issues that I have rarely seen in tennis in 30 years of playing.

You are the Captain, but never accepted the responsibility of that role for this match. You knew the first match date and could have set the lineup before going out of town and had the acting Captain turn in the lineup you directed. You didn't do that. You passed the buck, to someone who wasn't a Captain and you gave her little if any direction.

If I am out of town, I email the lineup page to the acting Captain. I tell the captain the backup plan in case of a no-show.

Accept some personal responsibility for your lack of action. Lack of planning on your part, doesn't constitute responsibility from your players.

This is your fault, and yours alone. Accept personal responsibility for your failures.

g4driver · Oct 28, 2011

As a Captain, unregistered players don't go on my lineup. I don't expect any of my players to know who has registers and who hasn't

I set my lineups even when out of town for a month. My friends who Captain teams have had me fill in for them. They always give me clear instructions. You did neither then blame your teammate for the default. Bad form! Very bad form!

dcdoorknob · Oct 29, 2011

g4driver said:
IMO, you should stop being a Captain, or learn to say "I screwed up." You blame others for your failures. You constantly have drama and issues that I have rarely seen in tennis in 30 years of playing.

You are the Captain, but never accepted the responsibility of that role for this match. You knew the first match date and could have set the lineup before going out of town and had the acting Captain turn in the lineup you directed. You didn't do that. You passed the buck, to someone who wasn't a Captain and you gave her little if any direction.

If I am out of town, I email the lineup page to the acting Captain. I tell the captain the backup plan in case of a no-show.

Accept some personal responsibility for your lack of action. Lack of planning on your part, doesn't constitute responsibility from your players.

This is your fault, and yours alone. Accept personal responsibility for your failures.

You are clearly a micro-manager (at least when it comes to tennis-captaining), but that doesn't mean that your style is the only effective or acceptable way to manage.

And the last line is just bizarre. I can perhaps get the line of thought that the captain ultimately has some blame (although I don't really agree that she should have to cover any court fees, even if anyone has to covers court fees at all which I've already said I don't think they should), but to say the fault is hers alone just seems weird. There are obviously others involved who are at fault here.

Datacipher · Oct 29, 2011

dcdoorknob said:
You are clearly a micro-manager (at least when it comes to tennis-captaining), but that doesn't mean that your style is the only effective or acceptable way to manage.

Nobody said it was. Management style is a choice up to the person. Accepting responsibility is not. She already made that choice when she decided to be Captain.

dcdoorknob said:
And the last line is just bizarre. I can perhaps get the line of thought that the captain ultimately has some blame

WELL....that's a start! A lot better than Cindi is doing! It's "taking full responsibility". It is demanded a great deal in positions of higher authority. When people below you let you down, it can mean your neck, but that's what it's all about! One needs to think about that before one accepts leadership and all the perks that come with it. And one needs to then manage against such let-downs...whether that means micro-managing. or some other strategy.

dcdoorknob said:
(although I don't really agree that she should have to cover any court fees, even if anyone has to covers court fees at all which I've already said I don't think they should), but to say the fault is hers alone just seems weird. There are obviously others involved who are at fault here.

Right, there are others who made mistakes, BUT:
1.they don't have the responsibility, the CAPTAIN does
2.she gave the duties, for which she is responsible, to them

This isn't even a company in which these tasks are SUPPOSED to be delegated to others...nor are they getting paid....she asked somebody to do her a favor, and do duties SHE had voluntarily assumed. If they make a mistake doing them, the error was on her part for making an arrangement in which her assumed obligations were not fulfilled. It's clear-cut.

This happens in...well almost every area of life where you have responsibilities...your job...your family...heck even loaning out your car!

Take a more extreme example if it helps. You are a Doctor..one day, instead you say...I'm going to be late for surgery...hey Head Nurse...you begin the procedure for me OK? Cover for me...I'll get there a bit later. Now the nurse screws up. You don't think the responsibility is yours?? Can you point at the nurse and say "geez! I thought she could do it! Well, yeah, it was my surgery, and my patient, but I have nothing to do with it...I asked her to do it! Hey! I wasn't even there!"

In that case, a person might die, in this case Cindi owes a few bucks. She should have anticipated that risk...after all, it's PART OF HER responsibilities! If the money means that much to her, well, she should have micro-managed that, or made other insurance based arrangements. If she simply never thought of it, that's her fault.

I hope you can see what we're saying.

Datacipher · Oct 29, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
Where are you people getting this nonsense from? It is really quite remarkable.

What's remarkable is that a grown adult apparently can't even begin to understand or accept proper responsiblity.

Cindysphinx said:
**It is basic common sense that if you agree to take on any task -- for hire or as a favor -- you are responsible if you botch it.**

Right. She is responsible to you, as a friend doing a favor. Hopefully you would be enough of a friend to say: my friend did this in good faith, and she made a mistake, I should have warned her or done that part myself, it's unfortunate I did not forsee that, but now I have learned my lesson for future reference. I made a mistake, and I accept the consequences, I certainly would not try to make a friend pay for doing me a favor.

YOU, not her, are still responsible to the league and the team.

Cindysphinx said:
If I ask you to wash my car as a personal favor and you are so stupid that you use steel wool, *you* are responsible for the damage.

Y..I..K..E..S. This scenario is not analogous in a number of fundamental ways. A proper analogy would be: I have accepted a job in which I wash a car every week. As part of the job agreement/contract, I am responsible for using the correct soap so as not to damage the car's finish, if I use the wrong soap, I am responsible for paying for the damage. One week, I left on vacation, and asked my friend to wash the car for me. She did, but she called to tell me she ran out of soap. I told her to go buy some new soap (and actually, I forgot to tell her which soap). She used the wrong soap and damaged the car. Now I refuse to pay for the car, as i DID NOTHING WRONG! I had NOTHING to do with it! I was far away at the time! Don't you get it? It was my friend! She should pay!!

Very ugly Cindy. Very ugly.

dcdoorknob · Oct 29, 2011

Datacipher said:
This isn't even a company in which these tasks are SUPPOSED to be delegated to others...nor are they getting paid....she asked somebody to do her a favor, and do duties SHE had voluntarily assumed.

Yeah, this is where your argument falls apart for me. I don't see anywhere inherent in the situation where delegating is any more or less acceptable than in a job. Yes, they are not getting paid. Neither is Cindy. To me delegating in certain situations as a team captain is perfectly acceptable, and it doesn't mean that the captain should still be on the hook financially should anything go wrong.

Datacipher said:
Take a more extreme example if it helps. You are a Doctor..one day, instead you say...I'm going to be late for surgery...hey Head Nurse...you begin the procedure for me OK? Cover for me...I'll get there a bit later. Now the nurse screws up. You don't think the responsibility is yours?? Can you point at the nurse and say "geez! I thought she could do it! Well, yeah, it was my surgery, and my patient, but I have nothing to do with it...I asked her to do it!"

In that case, a person might die, in this case Cindi owes a few bucks. If she should have anticipated that risk...after all, it's PART OF her responsibilities! If she simply never thought of it, that's her fault. If the money means that much to her, well, she should have micro-managed that, or made other insurance based arrangements.

I hope you can see what we're saying.

I think this is a pretty awful analogy, for one main reason. In your analogy, the doctor (surgeon I guess) handed off her responsibility to someone who was clearly not qualified to take that responsibility. Obviously the qualifications one must have to perform any type of surgery are high, and a nurse isn't going to meet those qualifications. In the case of captaining a tennis team, the only real qualification is a willingness to do so (heck, it's not brain surgery!

). Once the captain realizes that she is going to be otherwise occupied for an individual match, and asks someone else to be acting captain for that match, as long as this new person has a willingness to be acting captain that one match (as displayed by this person accepting the offer), then boom, that person is now qualified to be acting captain for that match, in stark contrast to your example of the nurse performing surgery.

A better analogy would be if this surgeon, let's even call her a chief surgeon at a hospital, knew ahead of time that she wasn't going to be available on a certain day and made all the appropriate arrangements ahead of time, including having another qualified surgeon agree take a particular surgery that was scheduled that day. Now, if something goes wrong with the surgery, who do you think is going to be facing the most heat for it? I expect it would be the other qualified surgeon who agreed to take on the responsibility and not the chief surgeon who was not present, even if the chief surgeon is technically the other surgeons superior within the hospital.

JoelDali · Oct 29, 2011

I know many captains including myself and not one of these would:

1. Not catch that a player that is playing for ME is not on the tennis link roster. I'm on that damn website 2 hours a day when I'm captaining. If I don't notice that a player who is playing for me on Sunday is not registered on Saturday, then I am an epic fail. End of story. That is incomprehensible. Incomprehendable. Inconceivable. End of story.

2. If I was to delegate one of my guys to be captain for me, it would be someone extremely capable and not an airhead and I would ensure that they understand what they need to do. I would be on the phone with them 1 hour before the match confirming all is set, and everything is in place - scorecards, phone numbers, travel plans. I would be on the phone with them 30 minutes before the match. Then I would on the phone with them 10 minutes before the match.

Also, are any of these ladies single?

I'm staying in my Villa in DC next weekend and I'm looking to mingle with assertive political types or general booze floozys.

Topaz · Oct 29, 2011

^^^Really? Come on down to Georgetown...I'll be working but I want to meet the infamous Joel Dali!

Tennis Truth · Oct 29, 2011

1) there should not be fee shifting in this instance. You have moved on from this point too quickly. Use your energy reading the rules and figuring out how to make this interpretation stick. You win this and nothing else matters. Not every default calls for fee shifting. Three strikes are a default. Fee shifting is not proper there either.

2) my take is that the captain is always in charge of things like making sure their players get registered. I doubt the sub captain thought this was their job. They assumed everyone on the email list was on the team.

3) the unregistered player is most culpable. I think you are somewhat responsible. When I ask someone to do me a favor and things get messed up, I don't blame them unless they stupidly messed it up. I don't think this instance rose to that level.

Datacipher · Oct 29, 2011

dcdoorknob said:
Yeah, this is where your argument falls apart for me. I don't see anywhere inherent in the situation where delegating is any more or less acceptable than in a job. Yes, they are not getting paid. Neither is Cindy. To me delegating in certain situations as a team captain is perfectly acceptable, and it doesn't mean that the captain should still be on the hook financially should anything go wrong.

"delegating" IS acceptable. I think we all agree on that. However, as doubshack pointed out, delegating a task does not abdicate you from responsiblity. Quite the opposite....the very fact that YOU are the delegator implies responsibility for your decisions! You are delegate authority to a sub-manager under you, when all goes badly, you don't think the board will hold you responsible? Even worse however, you "delegated" to somebody who doesn't even work there....they didn't take this job....they agreed as a personal favor to help you temporarily". At least in the former case, if the board blames you, you have the option of holding the underling responsible to you (the board isn't going to want to here your chain of blame!). If it's just a buddy...well now you've got nothing to stand on....you have the option of discontinuing the friendship...or whining "I shouldn't have asked you!"...but if you do that...you're essentially an ingrate, and a pretty lousy person.

dcdoorknob said:
I think this is a pretty awful analogy, for one main reason. In your analogy, the doctor (surgeon I guess) handed off her responsibility to someone who was clearly not qualified to take that responsibility. Obviously the qualifications one must have to perform any type of surgery are high, and a nurse isn't going to meet those qualifications. In the case of captaining a tennis team, the only real qualification is a willingness to do so (heck, it's not brain surgery! ). Once the captain realizes that she is going to be otherwise occupied for an individual match, and asks someone else to be acting captain for that match, as long as this new person has a willingness to be acting captain that one match (as displayed by this person accepting the offer), then boom, that person is now qualified to be acting captain for that match, in stark contrast to your example of the nurse performing surgery.

OH NO! There ARE qualifications it turns out. Namely: a knowledge of these regulations, and willingness to do due diligence in regard to them. Cindy ASSUMED her replacement had these things, but she did not. Just as the Doctor assumed the nurse could do it. Medical and judicial legalities aside, the analogy stands.

If the replacement being a nurse bothers you, fine, make it another Doctor. However, it was not one endorsed or found by the hospital (the league) as a replacement, it was a privately found replacement....the Doctor's friend. The doctor figured: hey! Susan can do it...I think she was some kind of Doctor once...same thing!!" The surgery goes ahead, with it understood that the original Dr is still in charge, and when his private, personal replacement screws up, is he liable?? You bet he is!

catfish · Oct 29, 2011

This thread has gotten way out of control. Cindy brought up something that happens all the time. Players forget to register in Tennislink before they play a match and cause a match default. We are talking about adults here, so they should be responsible enough to register when the captain asks them to. But invariably, some don't. If a player has been reminded repeatedly about registering, there's not much else a captain can do other than register the player herself, or not play that person.

Captains are volunteers, and without them there would be no league play. Being a captain is tough because you have so many personality types and so many "back seat drivers". Some of the players expectations about what a captain should & shouldn't do is unbelievable. With some of the attitudes I see in my local tennis community and on these boards, it's a wonder anyone captains teams. Captains are players, just like everyone else. They can't give up their life to dedicate to the team, and they can't make it to every match. When a player steps up as acting captain, they take on the responsibility of the captain for that match.

Crusher10s · Oct 29, 2011

JoelDali said:
I know many captains including myself and not one of these would:

1. Not catch that a player that is playing for ME is not on the tennis link roster. I'm on that damn website 2 hours a day when I'm captaining. If I don't notice that a player who is playing for me on Sunday is not registered on Saturday, then I am an epic fail. End of story. That is incomprehensible. Incomprehendable. Inconceivable. End of story.

2. If I was to delegate one of my guys to be captain for me, it would be someone extremely capable and not an airhead and I would ensure that they understand what they need to do. I would be on the phone with them 1 hour before the match confirming all is set, and everything is in place - scorecards, phone numbers, travel plans. I would be on the phone with them 30 minutes before the match. Then I would on the phone with them 10 minutes before the match.

Also, are any of these ladies single?

I'm staying in my Villa in DC next weekend and I'm looking to mingle with assertive political types or general booze floozys.

10 characters

Topaz · Oct 29, 2011

Tennis Truth said:
1) there should not be fee shifting in this instance. You have moved on from this point too quickly. Use your energy reading the rules and figuring out how to make this interpretation stick. You win this and nothing else matters. Not every default calls for fee shifting. Three strikes are a default. Fee shifting is not proper there either.

2) my take is that the captain is always in charge of things like making sure their players get registered. I doubt the sub captain thought this was their job. They assumed everyone on the email list was on the team.

3) the unregistered player is most culpable. I think you are somewhat responsible. When I ask someone to do me a favor and things get messed up, I don't blame them unless they stupidly messed it up. I don't think this instance rose to that level.

Three strkes? Not sure what you're talking about there, but in this area (Cindy and I play in the same area) we don't get to decide if money is owed or not. Yes, every default here DOES call for a fee...heck, every match has a fee. The rules are well known...you default, you pay the entire match fee for that court. That is not negotiable.

catfish said:
This thread has gotten way out of control. Cindy brought up something that happens all the time. Players forget to register in Tennislink before they play a match and cause a match default. We are talking about adults here, so they should be responsible enough to register when the captain asks them to. But invariably, some don't. If a player has been reminded repeatedly about registering, there's not much else a captain can do other than register the player herself, or not play that person.

Captains are volunteers, and without them there would be no league play. Being a captain is tough because you have so many personality types and so many "back seat drivers". Some of the players expectations about what a captain should & shouldn't do is unbelievable. With some of the attitudes I see in my local tennis community and on these boards, it's a wonder anyone captains teams. Captains are players, just like everyone else. They can't give up their life to dedicate to the team, and they can't make it to every match. When a player steps up as acting captain, they take on the responsibility of the captain for that match.

Agree with whole thing! But the bolded part is the most important. This is not one of those rules that not a lot of people know about...around here, EVERYONE knows this. And yes, we are talking about adults. It falls on the player...she is responsible for getting herself registered, nobody else.

Cindysphinx · Oct 29, 2011

Yes, as usual Topaz has it right.

I have to say, the attitude of some folks here is exactly why this country is such a hot mess.

Someone makes a mistake. Do they step up and accept the consequences of *their* mistake? Nope. They look around for someone, anyone, to blame.

"I'll blame my captain! She told me to register *three times.* She failed to catch my mistake. Waaaahhhhh!"

and

"I know I agreed to handle match administration for this match. I could have declined if I am too stupid or careless to get it right, but I didn't. Then I sent out a line-up with an ineligible player in it. I could have caught this when I filled out the scorecard, but it was too much trouble to print out a scorecard even though my captain gave me the link. Scorecards, phooey. Who needs 'em? Waaaahhh!!"

Yep, America is straight up doomed.

Cindy -- who is crazy careful and so does not make mistakes in match administration, but who would own it if she did

Topaz · Oct 29, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
Yes, as usual Topaz has it right.

Haha! Can I get a plaque or something with that engraved on it?

I have to say, the attitude of some folks here is exactly why this country is such a hot mess.

Someone makes a mistake. Do they step up and accept the consequences of *their* mistake? Nope. They look around for someone, anyone, to blame.

"I'll blame my captain! She told me to register *three times.* She failed to catch my mistake. Waaaahhhhh!"

and

"I know I agreed to handle match administration for this match. I could have declined if I am too stupid or careless to get it right, but I didn't. Then I sent out a line-up with an ineligible player in it. I could have caught this when I filled out the scorecard, but it was too much trouble to print out a scorecard even though my captain gave me the link. Scorecards, phooey. Who needs 'em? Waaaahhh!!"

Yep, America is straight up doomed.

Cindy -- who is crazy careful and so does not make mistakes in match administration, but who would own it if she did

Agreed...lack of personal responsibility...PARTICULARLY in our area. It is always someone else's fault!

g4driver · Oct 29, 2011

dcdoorknob said:
You are clearly a micro-manager (at least when it comes to tennis-captaining), but that doesn't mean that your style is the only effective or acceptable way to manage.

And the last line is just

Cindy = drama squared. she posts her drama here weekly. My teams have no drama. We play. We win, or lose and move on.

My singles team lineup plan: one blank sheet, one pen, 15 min warmup prior to match.

Me: who wants to play where?
#1 singles, #2 singles, # 3 singles = lineup set
When I am not there, phone call to all three players. "set the lineup as you wish guys."

Is that Micro-managing dcdoorknob? Love your answer on this question.

Men's 3.5 with players ranging from guys who win 4.0 single matches to those who can't beat 3.0 in singles or doubles.

Played a match a few weeks back. Unregistered player shows up to play for the Captain. I tell him, have your guy register before the scores go in.

3 Single courts = much easier than managing 15 players with a wide range of ability.

My players don't complain on either team. I turned down 8 players wanting to join that team this year, and still have 3 players to many.

I never wrote Cindy should pay for the court fees. She delegated the Captain job with little to no directions and that is why I say she failed and should accept responsibility for her failures. We all fail. None of us are immune, but the people who step up and say "I dropped the ball" instead of blaming others are the people I respect. Just my style. You have yours. Cindy asked for feedback and some of us think she dropped the ball.

Joe Dali gets it. Along with others.

Topaz · Oct 29, 2011

^^^If captaining doubles teams and regular season teams (with doubles and singles) were as easy as captaining a singles team, there'd be much less drama. The more people, the great chance for drama. Not quite a fair comparison.

Cindysphinx · Oct 29, 2011

g4driver said:
I never wrote Cindy should pay for the court fees. She delegated the Captain job with little to no directions and that is why I say she failed and should accept responsibility for her failures.

Incorrect.

I have a team spreadsheet. On it is a tab called "Guest Captain." My guest captains have therefore been spoonfed everything they need to captain competently. A person who has never captained could follow those instructions and do a fine job.

I did this because I got tired of spoonfeeding the information to people one by one.

g4driver · Oct 29, 2011

Cindy, you left out those details in your first post. Give us all the facts if you want other Captains to defend you.

Your original post mentioned nothing from your latest post with the spreasheet.

Your first post about this said nothing about instructions at all. Don't expect us to know facts if you forget to provide them. If you gave clear instructions to the acting Captain, I don't think you failed.

There is nothing you can do if you aren't there when an unregistered player shows up. The acting captain should have checked the roster and did like I did and gave the Captain 48 hours to have his guy join the team, or your acting Captain had every right to tell them they forfeit the courts.

I don't know what your local rules state, but I would ask the other team to pay 1/2 the fees and take the default or 1/2 the fees and put the scores in after the player registered. I choose to let the other guy play then register. Just my style.

Why do you play indoors in Maryland year round? Just curious? I know the weather is snowing there today, but May through Sept is normally nice in BWI.

And you do admit your teams have a lot of drama don't you?

no malice towards you Cindy. You make me laugh so many times, but your last posts does change the original post dramtically.

Dcdoorknob thinks I am a micro-managing Captain. I am just prepared. I know managing the teams with doubles take a lot more effort, since I Captain both. Topaz, I understand completely.

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