Anyone get this video series "Mastering the kick serve?" Its $200, but claims to provide specific drills for the kick serve. Want to know if its useful or a waste. Thanks.
Not enough marketing to draw many to that missing reference. I am curious how many pay for that price ? Heck, wonder how many would even pay for an Edberg online video when his serve has been analyzed by my leading experts and coaches so its just a "simple" matter of trying to reproduce what you see and hear and thats exactly why a real coach is usually required. infact, I know a former top 10 level player that would give a player in the LA area 4 one hour lessons for that price and he could help a player capable of a world class serve tons in those 4 hours.
Not enough marketing to draw many to that missing reference. I am curious how many pay for that price ? Heck, wonder how many would even pay for an Edberg online video when his serve has been analyzed by my leading experts and coaches so its just a "simple" matter of trying to reproduce what you see and hear and thats exactly why a real coach is usually required. infact, I know a former top 10 level player that would give a player in the LA area 4 one hour lessons for that price and he could help a player capable of a world class serve tons in those 4 hours.
The first free kick serve video by McLennan gives a long explanation of hitting up on the serve. A very suscinct recommendation of hitting up on the serve has been offered by Oscar Wegner for decades, in his books, his ESPN tips and his videos.
ln the second free kick serve video a demonstration is described as pronating the forearm. In fact, the motion illustrated (medial rotation) rotates the humerus (the upper arm bone) in its socket; this motion is accomplished by the 4 rotator cuff muscles located on the scapula (shoulder blade) together with the lats and the pecs. The main purpose of the rotator cuff muscles is to stabilize the humerus in its socket and keep it from "dislocating" as well as assist in the medial rotation of the arm. The motion being demonstrated in the video is exactly the motion that, when done repeatedly with a lot of force, causes torn rotator cuff! I believe this is a very common error in understanding of anatomy by coaches and players. Because of this misunderstanding the very thing that causes the problem is being recommended.
Instead, the pronation motion of the serve can be accomplished with the pronator quadratus and pronator teres muscles in the forearm, not up in the shoulder. Here is a good explanation from Wikipedia:
"Pronation of the forearm should not be confused with medial rotation of the shoulder. When standing in the anatomical position, medial rotation of the shoulder can perform part of the movement to change the palm from facing ventrally to dorsally. of the forearm occurs at the radioulnar joint so such a movement does not constitute it. To isolate medial rotation in the shoulder from pronation of the forearm one can stand with one's elbows tucked against the trunk, with the elbows flexed to 90 degrees with the forearms pointing directly in front of the body with the palms of the hands facing upwards. Keeping one's elbows tucked at the sides, the act of moving one's forearms so that the palms are facing downwards is pronation of the forearm."
Oscar Wegner recommends a motion that originates with the upward motion of the arm, pronating the forearm so that the back of the hand is facing toward the ear, then extending the arm upward with the triceps. In this way the relatively small and weak muscles of the rotator cuff are not compromised. Proper timing of this up and across motion is critical to optimum and safe performance of both first and second serve.
How can we deliberately block counterclockwise upper arm rotation during pronation phase of the serve and use only forearm pronation? I definitely cannot do it.Oscar Wegner recommends a motion that originates with the upward motion of the arm, pronating the forearm so that the back of the hand is facing toward the ear, then extending the arm upward with the triceps. In this way the relatively small and weak muscles of the rotator cuff are not compromised. Proper timing of this up and across motion is critical to optimum and safe performance of both first and second serve.
Why the comparison to Oscar. Why not just comment on Jim Mclennan without comparing him to how Oscar teaches?
Fair question, Balla. I believe it is important for readers to understand that there is other instructional information available specific to this subject. Oscar happens to provide it and he is IMO a very reliable and trustworthy source. I do not mean to criticize McLennan, but based on my study of tennis biomechanics I believe this particular information is faulty and even damaging. I do feel that people need to research material and decide for themselves what to apply.
McLennan, Hamilton, Abel & Westerman are all working in tandem to promote sales of their product(s). This thread addressed the issue of perceived value of McLennan's product. I question the value of said data in that product, but I also find much of McLennan's material sound and helpful.
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Hi Playnice, I understand how the rotator cuff is impacted by upper arm rotation, and Oscar's injunction against using such a technique. But don't the pro servers use a massive amount of upper arm rotation? In fact, Brian Gordon's analysis has shown that upper arm rotation is a major source of power. Will not using just the forearm with its weak muscles to generate power cause other kinds of damage, especially to the wrist?
ln the second free kick serve video a demonstration is described as pronating the forearm. In fact, the motion illustrated (medial rotation) rotates the humerus (the upper arm bone) in its socket; this motion is accomplished by the 4 rotator cuff muscles located on the scapula (shoulder blade) together with the lats and the pecs.
The main purpose of the rotator cuff muscles is to stabilize the humerus in its socket and keep it from "dislocating" as well as assist in the medial rotation of the arm. The motion being demonstrated in the video is exactly the motion that, when done repeatedly with a lot of force, causes torn rotator cuff! I believe this is a very common error in understanding of anatomy by coaches and players. Because of this misunderstanding the very thing that causes the problem is being recommended.
Instead, the pronation motion of the serve can be accomplished with the pronator quadratus and pronator teres muscles in the forearm, not up in the shoulder. Here is a good explanation from Wikipedia:
Had a thought about this and then decided $200 ( £158 ) is better spent on getting 5-6 one-to-one lessons with a coach. All this video analysis and multiple angles is going to achieve nothing if you keep doing things wrong fundamentally.
FuzzyYellowBalls has enough online resources FOC without resorting to paying for these $200+ online courses.
For me, after struggling with putting meaningful power into my flat serve, one of the coaches in my club came over during a knockabout session and gave me a few pointers. Once in the trophy pose, I was not bending my knees before exploding upwards with a racquet take back.
He pointed out that my back was therefore not more upright when rising therefore I was not letting the racquet drop (with my elbow facing up) and then bringing arm up 'chopping' at the ball before opening the racquet face prior to hitting the ball and then pronating after contact.
To my amazement, those little adjustments made a huge difference as I was at last able to generate much more pace to my serves. My serves now have so much more pop and seemed to generate so much more top spin and landing consistently further to the corners and edge of the service box whereas it was landing on the middle far too much.
ln the second free kick serve video a demonstration is described as pronating the forearm. In fact, the motion illustrated (medial rotation) rotates the humerus (the upper arm bone) in its socket; this motion is accomplished by the 4 rotator cuff muscles located on the scapula (shoulder blade) together with the lats and the pecs. The main purpose of the rotator cuff muscles is to stabilize the humerus in its socket and keep it from "dislocating" as well as assist in the medial rotation of the arm. The motion being demonstrated in the video is exactly the motion that, when done repeatedly with a lot of force, causes torn rotator cuff! I believe this is a very common error in understanding of anatomy by coaches and players. Because of this misunderstanding the very thing that causes the problem is being recommended.
I signed up for the program and hopefully it is worth the price. I really want to learn the kick serve and have watched many of his past videos on tennisone and hope this works out. I will let you know how the program works out in a few weeks when everything is all set.
On a side note, if any one knows of a good instructor in the SF Bay Area who you would recommend to teach the kick serve, let me know. I want someone who can give me step by step drills that I can work on and help me improve my serve.
There is a good reason why people are searching all over for a kick serve lesson. It is simply because the "local pro", "fuzzy yellow balls" and the like can't really hit a decent kick. They can all talk the talk, but none of them can walk the walk. Just like Nick Bollettieri, I have never seen him hit a killer forehand nor a sonic serve. Just speaking from experience. There is a huge gap between 3.0 to 4.0 and above. Your best bet is to watch local players and try to chat up the ones that can actually hit a kick serve. They are the only ones that can tell you how. I have tried a lot of online instruction (tennisone, tennisplayer, hi-techtennis, and watched fuzzy yellow balls) only to find out after finally achieving 4.0 that they are all armchair coaches.
There is a good reason why people are searching all over for a kick serve lesson. It is simply because the "local pro", "fuzzy yellow balls" and the like can't really hit a decent kick. They can all talk the talk, but none of them can walk the walk. Just like Nick Bollettieri, I have never seen him hit a killer forehand nor a sonic serve. Just speaking from experience. There is a huge gap between 3.0 to 4.0 and above. Your best bet is to watch local players and try to chat up the ones that can actually hit a kick serve. They are the only ones that can tell you how. I have tried a lot of online instruction (tennisone, tennisplayer, hi-techtennis, and watched fuzzy yellow balls) only to find out after finally achieving 4.0 that they are all armchair coaches.
Really? So you're saying that Nick Bollettieri cannot teach a forehand or a kick serve? Do you honestly think that Tony Nadal cannot teach and is just an armchair coach because he cannot hit the ball like Rafa?
Very loosely related-I assume that you have seen a tape inside of a tape
belowi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GljqJv84tTI#
Please note the phrase " a tape inside of a tape"
There is a good reason why people are searching all over for a kick serve lesson. It is simply because the "local pro", "fuzzy yellow balls" and the like can't really hit a decent kick. They can all talk the talk, but none of them can walk the walk. Just like Nick Bollettieri, I have never seen him hit a killer forehand nor a sonic serve. Just speaking from experience. There is a huge gap between 3.0 to 4.0 and above. Your best bet is to watch local players and try to chat up the ones that can actually hit a kick serve. They are the only ones that can tell you how. I have tried a lot of online instruction (tennisone, tennisplayer, hi-techtennis, and watched fuzzy yellow balls) only to find out after finally achieving 4.0 that they are all armchair coaches.
Very loosely related-I assume that you have seen a tape inside of a tape
belowi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GljqJv84tTI#
Please note the phrase " a tape inside of a tape"
This one point that helped you so much, to "hit up" on the serve, is a tip that Oscar Wegner has been teaching for decades.
Along with a ton of other coaches who state the exact same thing....for decades.
Once again, why try and turn this into an Oscar thread? Is there a way someones work here can be discussed without you coming out trying to convince others how you believe Oscar does it better, has done it for longer and his way is the correct way?
Your posts are looking more and more like advertisements rather then helpful hints and tips or debates. Is MTM membership down this quarter? Trying to meet the quota? I understand its a recession, tough times but we all gotta deal with it you know.
Oscar Wegner recommends a motion that originates with the upward motion of the arm, pronating the forearm so that the back of the hand is facing toward the ear, then extending the arm upward with the triceps. In this way the relatively small and weak muscles of the rotator cuff are not compromised. Proper timing of this up and across motion is critical to optimum and safe performance of both first and second serve.
Anyone get this video series "Mastering the kick serve?" Its $200, but claims to provide specific drills for the kick serve. Want to know if its useful or a waste. Thanks.
Very loosely related-I assume that you have seen a tape inside of a tape
belowi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GljqJv84tTI#
Please note the phrase " a tape inside of a tape"
That was quite interesting, thanks for sharing.
- Will
Very loosely related-I assume that you have seen a tape inside of a tape
belowi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GljqJv84tTI#
Please note the phrase " a tape inside of a tape"
Great video, thanks for that.
Thank you Capt. Obvious (Fedace)
I am being misquoted here. It should say SUPINATING the forearm so the back of the hand is facing toward the ear, then extending the arm upward with the triceps and pronating, still upwards, on contact (Put the hand in front of your face; if you look inside your palm you supinate - if you look at the back of your hand, you pronate). There is no way a person can pronate and then pronate again. If you observe carefully the top pros, the first supination action occurs, in most cases, when the racquet drops behind the player's back. Great servers like Kramer, Gonzalez, later on Newcombe, and modernly Roddick, Federer, Serena, practically everyone at the top level uses this particular aspect on the serve to a larger or smaller extent.
Really? So you're saying that Nick Bollettieri cannot teach a forehand or a kick serve? Do you honestly think that Tony Nadal cannot teach and is just an armchair coach because he cannot hit the ball like Rafa?
You can obviously teach a language you don't speak very well or you can ask the native speaker. Given a choice to ask Tony Nadal or Rafael Nadal how to hit a reverse forehand, who would you choose?
LOL- so pros and pro wannabees go to Nick B, Landsdorp and Macci because they all can hit killer groundstrokes and awesome kickserves? They are all frauds? Wow a lot of people are wasting a heck of a lot money on these guys if that is the case.
There is a huge difference between watching someone online and having someone correct your technique in person working with you 1 on 1. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you can teach it. In fact I bet most pro level players would be terrible instructors for recreational level play.
But I am glad that you as a 4.0 player have found the secret to high levels of play. Just go find some dude in the local park who can hit kick serves and chat him up. Pretty soon you will be 5.0 with a kick serve.
Ignorance is bliss, apparently. I've been around the tennis teaching industry for over 35 years, know most all the "armchair coaches" you seem to associate with the various sites on line and those who teach tennis...and can tell you that you are either a troll seeking attention or someone who really does not understand the concept of teaching tennis whatsoever. Personally, I am a high 5.0 player with a hell of a kick serve. However, that does not necessarily make me automatically know how I developed it, how most players will progress in learning to hit it, or what drills or tools I might offer as advice to those seeking to learn to hit a Kick Serve.
No, my ability to train thousands of players, (including hundreds of state, nationally and world-ranked players), stems from seeking undertanding, reading books, yes--talking to hundreds of other qualified pros and players, and then going out and training thousands of players, evaluating how they progress using different training methods...then adjust, learn more, and augment my teaching mantra to better serve my students as I continue to learn myself. (I also did not win over 1000 team matches against fewer than 15 losses over a 28 season career in coaching tennis by abiding by the so-called advice offered by this poster.)
There is nothing wrong with talking to skilled players; more importantly, watch skilled players execute skilled strokes and try to understand what they are doing. However, many players, pros included, don't have a clear understanding of how they developed their strokes. Some do...but many do not.
However, while there certainly are pros who indeed are misguided--as there is in any teaching industry, I would never label those of us who have dedicated our lives to first understanding the sport we teach, but then dedicate ourselves to helping students become the best they can be, as "armchair coaches" who have stagnated at the 4.0 level!