Be mindful of the snakes in the grass

Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
My captain "Diana" had a smackdown yesterday. Here's what happened.

The day before the match, opposing captain "Sarah" emailed Diana to say Sarah was short a doubles player. Diana replied that she had all six players available. Sarah said she would keep looking for a player.

The day of the match, Diana (having been counseled by me and others to pin Sarah down and get everything in writing) wrote to Sarah again to ask whether Sarah had six players. Diana again assured Sarah that she had six players. Sarah replied that "we are defaulting Doubles Three."

Diana wrote to our team and told us Sarah was defaulting Court Three and the Court Three players didn't need to come.

Diana and her three teammates played Sarah's team and won Doubles One and Doubles Two. When Diana and Sarah went to sign scorecards, Sarah said, "I saw one of your Court Three players here, but I didn't see the other one. Since she didn't come, it's a double default." Diana hit the roof, but the league coordinator agreed with Sarah.

I say that is about the most low-down, sneaky, devious, deceptive stunt I have seen a captain pull.

If you know ahead of time you are short on players, it is OK to check with the other captain to see if she has six.

It is OK (but not great) to say nothing and make sure the other captain really did have six.

It is also OK to give notice of a default so that players don't spend time and money coming to a match that isn't going to happen.

What is not OK is to lure your opposing captain into not sending her players by specifically saying that you are defaulting a court. What possible legitimate reason is there to raise the issue of the default at all if you are going to insist that the opponents show up?

Had I been in Sarah's shoes, there is simply no way I would seek or accept a double-default under these circumstances. I don't take wins through trickery.

Sarah is on my short list of Captains Who Will Not Be Extended Any Accommodations Or Courtesies.
 
M

Mike Y

Rookie
Why would the league coordinator side with Sarah if there is an e-mail that said that she was defaulting Court 3? I believe in our area once you indicate that you are defaulting a court, there are no takebacks, that line is defaulted regardless of who shows up or doesn't show up to the match.
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
Disgraceful stunt by the opposing captain.

But what is way, way more disgraceful is that the league coordinator agreed with her. What kind of a message does that send? In my section, the captain's guidelines actively encourage captains to give opposing captains prior warning of default in order to avoid wasting people's time showing up and not playing.

EDIT: Mike Y posted right before I did with the same observation - common courtesy must be a NorCal thing :)
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
OrangePower said:
Disgraceful stunt by the opposing captain.

But what is way, way more disgraceful is that the league coordinator agreed with her. What kind of a message does that send? In my section, the captain's guidelines actively encourage captains to give opposing captains prior warning of default in order to avoid wasting people's time showing up and not playing.

EDIT: Mike Y posted right before I did with the same observation - common courtesy must be a NorCal thing :)
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The league coordinator is absolutely in the wrong. Tennis is a game of good sportsmanship and that is supposed to rule all decisions. What the captain who tricked the other captain did in order to get a double default did was no different than lying on the scorecard. She should be banned from captaining ever again and the league coordinator should be fired.
 
T

tenniscasey

Semi-Pro
Bad sportsmanship, obviously. But what do the league rules say about how defaults work? The league coordinator may have been in an impossible situation, stuck enforcing a rule he knew was being abused.
 
M

Mike Y

Rookie
Looking over our local rules, I couldn't find anything about a default being permanent once the defaulting team announces it in advance. But that is the way it is generally practiced in my experience. I have been on teams have been told that the other team is defaulting a line, and my captains have told those players on that line that they don't have to show up, and we would record the default.

Interestingly enough, according to our local rules regarding double-defaults:

DOUBLE FORFEITS: If both teams forfeit the same individual match (i.e. a double forfeit of the same position), the teams must reschedule the individual match and play it.
Click to expand...

From here -http://www.norcal.usta.com/Leagues-Pages/16671_Captains_Handbook_revised_Table_of_Contents/#aMatch_Issues
 
L

Local Girl

New User
What a rotten thing to do. If the local rules recommend notification of defaults, then file an administrative grievance against the league coordinator and a sportsmanship grievance against Sarah. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
 
T

TENNIS4FUN2

New User
Wow!! That is just wrong! Even in levels beyond local league, where I am at, if the other team announces a default the court players for the other team don't have to show up.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
I thought this thread was about snakes on tennis courts. I was playing on a grass court once when a woman shrieked, "SNAKE!, SNAKE!" and there was a garter snake that came up from a hole onto the court. BTW, that sucks about the default BS.
 
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S

spot

Hall of Fame
Supposedly its even worse in ALTA. There is a rumor going around that in net news (the free ALTA magazine they send out quarterly) there was a rules question about a captain that said that they would be defaulting a line the day before the match but then showed up and had a full lineup. ALTA said that a default is not official until the lineups are exchanged.

To me this is a brutally bad precedent. In ALTA the all time dirty trick would now be that a team could say that they had an out of town wedding and that they could only field one line for a 9am match. So if the opposing team sent just one line to the match but the dirty team instead had two lines. The innocent team would end up defaulting lines 2 though 5 unless they could get 2 more people there by 9:20.

I really thought that this was an urban legend that even when a team says in writing that they are defaulting that they would be allowed to show up at the match with a full lineup but I guess not.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
Then why don't you file a complaint and enclose the emails?
Click to expand...

To be clear . . . I am not the captain, and I wasn't there.

Anyway, my captain did file a grievance this morning. She addressed the issue of the double-default and included the email exchange.

She also identified another dispute.

Sarah's partner arrived seven minutes late (format for this match was 90 minute timed match with five minute warm-up, 15 minute default period). As I understand it, that is loss of toss and two games.

Diana advised Sarah that our team would be serving up 2-0, and Sarah disagreed. Sarah said there are no game penalties for ****iness in the DC league. Diana appealed this to the league coordinator, who agreed with Sarah.

I have to run, but I thought those time penalties are in the local rules or mid-Atlantic rules or something.
 
bcart1991

bcart1991

Professional
spot said:
Supposedly its even worse in ALTA.
Click to expand...

I had to deal with this last men's season. One team lost a bunch of points by playing an illegal player, and we played them the last match.

Their captain went back and forth with me and my co-captain trying to pull some shady nonsense, and ended up sending one line. I made sure that all my guys were there at 9am just in case their captain tried to pull a fast one.

My wife could have ruined a whole team's season when one of their Line 1 players was over 30 minutes late for their match (first match of the season). Lines 2 and 3 had already started when the default time hit. my wife was gracious enough to play and not default the entire team for the season.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I think it is sad when you have to lawyer up to play a league match.

Best practice is to ask the captain directly: "Are you defaulting a line, and do you agree that my players need not be present to claim the default?"
 
anubis

anubis

Hall of Fame
maybe the league coordinator is afraid of Sarah. sounds like he/she is siding with her all the time.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
My captain "Diana" had a smackdown yesterday. Here's what happened.

The day before the match, opposing captain "Sarah" emailed Diana to say Sarah was short a doubles player. Diana replied that she had all six players available. Sarah said she would keep looking for a player.

The day of the match, Diana (having been counseled by me and others to pin Sarah down and get everything in writing) wrote to Sarah again to ask whether Sarah had six players. Diana again assured Sarah that she had six players. Sarah replied that "we are defaulting Doubles Three."

Diana wrote to our team and told us Sarah was defaulting Court Three and the Court Three players didn't need to come.

Diana and her three teammates played Sarah's team and won Doubles One and Doubles Two. When Diana and Sarah went to sign scorecards, Sarah said, "I saw one of your Court Three players here, but I didn't see the other one. Since she didn't come, it's a double default." Diana hit the roof, but the league coordinator agreed with Sarah.

I say that is about the most low-down, sneaky, devious, deceptive stunt I have seen a captain pull.

If you know ahead of time you are short on players, it is OK to check with the other captain to see if she has six.

It is OK (but not great) to say nothing and make sure the other captain really did have six.

It is also OK to give notice of a default so that players don't spend time and money coming to a match that isn't going to happen.

What is not OK is to lure your opposing captain into not sending her players by specifically saying that you are defaulting a court. What possible legitimate reason is there to raise the issue of the default at all if you are going to insist that the opponents show up?

Had I been in Sarah's shoes, there is simply no way I would seek or accept a double-default under these circumstances. I don't take wins through trickery.

Sarah is on my short list of Captains Who Will Not Be Extended Any Accommodations Or Courtesies.
Click to expand...
This is why I'm glad that we don't have USTA leagues in our area. Or team tennis. Too much gaming, rating sandbagging, politics and unnecessary drama, imo.

I just want to play tennis, have fun, and hopefully improve my game while doing it.

I joined the Tennis League Network partner program to get more playing partners in my area. It's worked out beautifully. None of the bs associated with USTA leagues, and it's a lot cheaper. It's a nationwide (singles play only as far as I know) partner and flex league program that has a national tournament at Crandon Park on Key Biscayne (Miami).

By the way, it's also partnered with Tennis Warehouse. :)
 
jmverdugo

jmverdugo

Hall of Fame
boy ... Am I glad to be a man. Things are so much more laid back on men leagues, well, most of the time at least.
 
goober

goober

Legend
I clarified this exact potential situation with our LC after the opposing captain called me and told me he was defaulting a line. If you have written proof via email, the opposing team cannot take back their default.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
Cindysphinx said:
To be clear . . . I wasn't there.
Click to expand...

Geez! False advertising, why didn't you say that in the beginning? I'm glad I didn't pay any attention to the twists and turns of this world shaking event (except my brilliant contribution--which I was there for). If you were lawyered-up, this would be thrown out of court as hearsay, here it's just gossip. Who knows what really happened? I suspect there is another side to the story and a history. League tennis: the blind leading the blind.
 
goober

goober

Legend
TomT said:
This is why I'm glad that we don't have USTA leagues in our area. Or team tennis. Too much gaming, rating sandbagging, politics and unnecessary drama, imo.

I just want to play tennis, have fun, and hopefully improve my game while doing it.

I joined the Tennis League Network partner program to get more playing partners in my area. It's worked out beautifully. None of the bs associated with USTA leagues, and it's a lot cheaper. It's a nationwide (singles play only as far as I know) partner and flex league program that has a national tournament at Crandon Park on Key Biscayne (Miami).

By the way, it's also partnered with Tennis Warehouse. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the shameess plug.

I have played in 3 different flex leagues including TLN,

Team tennis is way better than flex leauge.

Flex league- hard to schedule matches and actually play matches, the 2 nonUSTA flex leagues did not have enough players so you had to play players way out of level and often very far away. Also it is not a lot cheaper it is like $5 cheaper to join.

After playing 5 seasons of flex I decided not to play it anymore. Team tennis you get regular scheduled tennis that you know is going to happen and the opponents are generally are going to be good. Once you join a team you will have like 15-20 guys to play with that you won't have to pay some flex league fee to hit with.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
goober said:
Thanks for the shameess plug.
Click to expand...
You're welcome. I think plugs should be done shameessly whenever possible. :)

goober said:
Team tennis is way better than flex leauge.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but is it as ... flexible? :)

goober said:
Flex league- hard to schedule matches and actually play matches ...
Click to expand...
Not in my experience, so far.

goober said:
... the 2 nonUSTA flex leagues did not have enough players so you had to play players way out of level and often very far away.
Click to expand...
Again, not in my experience, so far.

goober said:
Also it is not a lot cheaper it is like $5 cheaper to join.
Click to expand...
From what I've seen USTA is like twice as expensive as TLN. But of course, with USTA team play, you also get the gaming, rating sandbagging, politics and associated drama.

goober said:
After playing 5 seasons of flex I decided not to play it anymore. Team tennis you get regular scheduled tennis that you know is going to happen and the opponents are generally are going to be good. Once you join a team you will have like 15-20 guys to play with that you won't have to pay some flex league fee to hit with.
Click to expand...
I've already met about 15 guys, all at different levels, each unique, and many of whom are quite competitive via TLN. And it's growing in this area (Fort Lauderdale).

I did check out USTA, but couldn't find anything in this area. If you know otherwise, then let me know.

And regarding my sarcasm. Just having a little fun. No offense. I appreciate your comments. Thanks.
 
goober

goober

Legend
TomT said:
I did check out USTA, but couldn't find anything in this area. If you know otherwise, then let me know.

.
Click to expand...

Boy you must have checked really hard. I am not from Florida and found out they have a ton of USTA league stuff in your area in about 30 seconds. Do a quick search around your zip code out to 20 miles.
https://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/Main/FindALeague.aspx

Fort Lauderdale regularly places teams into sectionals and nationals at USTA on both mens and womens side. They have a very active league in all levels. plus they hold the USTA national clay court championships and a bunch national tournaments for age group tournaments.

Are sure you even tried to look?
 
C

catfish

Professional
Cindysphinx said:
Diana wrote to our team and told us Sarah was defaulting Court Three and the Court Three players didn't need to come.

Diana and her three teammates played Sarah's team and won Doubles One and Doubles Two. When Diana and Sarah went to sign scorecards, Sarah said, "I saw one of your Court Three players here, but I didn't see the other one. Since she didn't come, it's a double default." Diana hit the roof, but the league coordinator agreed with Sarah.
Click to expand...

This is complete BS. If you default #3 in advance the opposing team does not have to show up. People have way better things to do with their time. The USTA National Rule Clarifications.

How should “known defaults” be handled both at the local level and at championships?
In the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair play, the
opposing team(s) should be advised of a known default.
The defaulting captain will still be able to designate at
what position (2nd singles or 3rd doubles) a known
default will occur.
See Regulations: 2.01C(5) and 2.03F

Your captain did the right thing by filing a grievance. Keep us posted on what happens. Why a league coordinator would feel like this type of poor sportsmanship is OK is beyond my comprehension.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
catfish said:
This is complete BS. If you default #3 in advance the opposing team does not have to show up. People have way better things to do with their time. The USTA National Rule Clarifications.

How should “known defaults” be handled both at the local level and at championships?
In the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair play, the
opposing team(s) should be advised of a known default.
The defaulting captain will still be able to designate at
what position (2nd singles or 3rd doubles) a known
default will occur.
See Regulations: 2.01C(5) and 2.03F

Your captain did the right thing by filing a grievance. Keep us posted on what happens. Why a league coordinator would feel like this type of poor sportsmanship is OK is beyond my comprehension.
Click to expand...

I know what you're thinking: surely this must have been an important match. There must have been prize money at stake. Or at least a trip to sectionals or nationals.

Nah. Our team is firmly embedded in last place. Sarah's team is in right above us, but I think they have clinched that second-to-last spot. Nothing whatsoever was at stake. If Sarah will behave this way when it doesn't matter, imagine what she will do when it does.
 
C

catfish

Professional
Cindysphinx said:
I know what you're thinking: surely this must have been an important match. There must have been prize money at stake. Or at least a trip to sectionals or nationals.

Nah. Our team is firmly embedded in last place. Sarah's team is in right above us, but I think they have clinched that second-to-last spot. Nothing whatsoever was at stake. If Sarah will behave this way when it doesn't matter, imagine what she will do when it does.
Click to expand...

There are so may things wrong with the situation, where do you start? Why does common sense not rule here? People amaze me with the lengths they will go to over a tennis match. I could tell some stories........but I won't right now. Sigh.....
 
J

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
To be clear . . . I am not the captain, and I wasn't there.

Anyway, my captain did file a grievance this morning. She addressed the issue of the double-default and included the email exchange.

She also identified another dispute.

Sarah's partner arrived seven minutes late (format for this match was 90 minute timed match with five minute warm-up, 15 minute default period). As I understand it, that is loss of toss and two games.

Diana advised Sarah that our team would be serving up 2-0, and Sarah disagreed. Sarah said there are no game penalties for ****iness in the DC league. Diana appealed this to the league coordinator, who agreed with Sarah.

I have to run, but I thought those time penalties are in the local rules or mid-Atlantic rules or something.
Click to expand...
Judging from another 'dispute' mentioned above, the one that OP conveniently forgot to mention in the first post, I somehow think there is/was more to that story. i mean if you start the match telling the other team you are going to penalize them two games for being few minutes late you probably are not being viewed as the nicest folks to be around........... Not to mention that while you mock the other captain for pulling the stunt in oh-so-important match between two worst teams, you somehow do not see that penalizing two games is even more petty. And on top of that the other captain seems to be knowing what the actual rules are (even if they seem illogical).
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
jmnk said:
Judging from another 'dispute' mentioned above, the one that OP conveniently forgot to mention in the first post, I somehow think there is/was more to that story. i mean if you start the match telling the other team you are going to penalize them two games for being few minutes late you probably are not being viewed as the nicest folks to be around........... Not to mention that while you mock the other captain for pulling the stunt in oh-so-important match between two worst teams, you somehow do not see that penalizing two games is even more petty. And on top of that the other captain seems to be knowing what the actual rules are (even if they seem illogical).
Click to expand...

Personally, I wouldn't have bothered with the game penalty (or would have rounded down). Still, game penalties are quite routine in this league so, whatever.

And yes, I am surprised that anyone would pull this stunt when we are talking about the two bottom feeding teams. At this point in the season with nothing on the line, on a hot and humid day, it can be hard to get players to want to endure rush hour traffic if they are playing, let alone if their court has been defaulted.

But hey. If you would have done what Sarah did and wish to justify it, then I guess there is more than one reptile around.
 
J

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
Personally, I wouldn't have bothered with the game penalty (or would have rounded down). Still, game penalties are quite routine in this league so, whatever.

And yes, I am surprised that anyone would pull this stunt when we are talking about the two bottom feeding teams. At this point in the season with nothing on the line, on a hot and humid day, it can be hard to get players to want to endure rush hour traffic if they are playing, let alone if their court has been defaulted.

But hey. If you would have done what Sarah did and wish to justify it, then I guess there is more than one reptile around.
Click to expand...
I'm not justifying what "Sarah" did. I'm just even more amazed at what "Diana" did, and suspect "Sarah" was just trying to even out the unpleasantries.
And it looks like game penalties are --not-- "quite routine in this league". If they were I doubt that both Diana and coordinator would say there are no game penalties for ****iness.
 
dcdoorknob

dcdoorknob

Hall of Fame
Well, you know what they say....

A snake in the grass is worth 2 on the plane!

snakes-on%20-plane-1.jpg




Hmmm I may have gotten that mixed up somehow. It's something like that.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
goober said:
Boy you must have checked really hard. I am not from Florida and found out they have a ton of USTA league stuff in your area in about 30 seconds. Do a quick search around your zip code out to 20 miles.
https://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/Main/FindALeague.aspx

Fort Lauderdale regularly places teams into sectionals and nationals at USTA on both mens and womens side. They have a very active league in all levels. plus they hold the USTA national clay court championships and a bunch national tournaments for age group tournaments.

Are sure you even tried to look?
Click to expand...
Yes. I've explored the main USTA website and the Florida USTA website. Haven't found any mention of Fort Lauderdale yet. Below [1] are the only leagues mentioned that might fit what I want. Everything else is too far away (I'm right in the center of Fort Lauderdale, and apparently there's no USTA stuff happening in this area -- lots of stuff in Daytona Beach, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade, etc., but nothing about Fort Lauderdale. I haven't been able to find any details about the leagues below, or anything else pertaining to USTA Fort Lauderdale, using the menus at the main USTA website or the Florida USTA website. So, I just supposed that there's not any USTA leagues happening in Fort Lauderdale.

I called the numbers given for the local league coordinators for Region 8. No answers so far. They're Miami telephone numbers. I called the Jimmy Evert Tennis Center in Fort Lauderdale. They have their own non-USTA men's leagues. The largest participation is in the Broward Flex Tennis Leagues -- also non-USTA. Then there's the league I'm currently playing in -- also non-USTA. There's, I'm guessing, about 100 players involved in all these leagues. But none of it is USTA, as far as I can find out.

I plugged in a central Fort Lauderdale zip code looking for tournaments. No results.
----------------------------------------
[1]
League -- 2012 Broward Player's Holding Zone
Registration Dates -- 01-01-2012 to 12-22-2012
Season Dates -- 01-01-2012 to 12-22-2012
District -- REGION_8
Area -- BROWARD
Division -- Adult 18+
NTRP Levels -- Open

League -- 2012 Broward Captain's Holding Zone
Registration Dates -- 01-01-2012 to 12-22-2012
Season Dates -- 01-01-2012 to 12-22-2012
District -- REGION_8
Area -- BROWARD
Division -- Adult 18+
NTRP Levels -- Open
 
T

TENNIS4FUN2

New User
They may have not created the leagues in tennis link for fall league yet. I see one out there for mixed though, in Broward County. Are there any public courts with Pro's near you? If so, they are probably a good source of information.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
TENNIS4FUN2 said:
They may have not created the leagues in tennis link for fall league yet. I see one out there for mixed though, in Broward County. Are there any public courts with Pro's near you? If so, they are probably a good source of information.
Click to expand...
I don't like doubles. Eventually I'll get in touch with the local league coordinators and see what's up.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
TomT said:
I don't like doubles. Eventually I'll get in touch with the local league coordinators and see what's up.
Click to expand...
Update on this. I eventually did get in touch with the local league coordinator in Broward County. Apparently there are no 3.0 USTA singles leagues currently operating in Fort Lauderdale.

There are, however, more than 200 people involved in non-USTA leagues in the Fort Lauderdale area.

A couple of Fort Lauderdale clubs have hosted national USTA tournaments in the past several years. But this is, apparently, not indicative of USTA participation in the Fort Lauderdale area, which seems to be quite low.

Anyway, I'm satisfied with the league I'm in now, and might join the Broward Tennis League. Lots of good players. They use the NTRP rating system guidelines. For players like me who just want to improve their games and make some good tennis contacts, then USTA seems unnecessary.
 
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