The Myth of HIIT

^^ I'd argue that "endurance" runs and "intervals" compliment each other and are both useful.

I would always argue that intervals should be added to your training only after a sufficient "cardio base" has been established.

Speed without endurance will make you susceptible to tiring as the match progresses. Sometimes very quickly (like within a set or less).

But endurance without speed (or rather quickness) isn't optimal either.

I also argue that tennis isn't really a series of short sprints at all. I pretty much never "sprint" on court (and if I'm sprinting, I'm probably in trouble). It's just a series of hitting and "shuffling" to your recorvery position. Then a few (sometimes quick) steps to get into position, hit, and shuffle back to recovery.

In my experience, "quickness" is more about anticipation and correct recovery positions and only occasionally has anything at all to do with sprinting.

But I find people often get tired and "lazy" as the match progresses. To me, that is a function of endurance, not speed. It is why you train up your "cardio base".

And I'd argue more matches (especially rec level) are lost due to the player just getting tired as opposed to the player not have enough raw interval speed on court.

.......just my observation

I'd agree, there is definitely sprinting in tennis if you are playing guys who lob and drop or are good at moving you side to side. But endurance really seems to be the key more than anything.

Lately I've been jogging half a mile as a warm up then running some hills. I also do some ladder drills for footwork.

Nothing crazy, I'm trying to keep it simple. I think a lot of people might be burning themselves out from over training. I feel like I was at one point

I'm nothing special on a tennis court but my fitness hasn't been an issue.

r2473 said:

I would always argue that intervals should be added to your training only after a sufficient "cardio base" has been established.

Speed without endurance will make you susceptible to tiring as the match progresses. Sometimes very quickly (like within a set or less).


I also argue that tennis isn't really a series of short sprints at all.

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Now notice, I didn't say tennis was a sprint, but that using sprints in training
harder than most tennis requirements, making the tennis be and feel easier.
Funny you argue that tennis isn't a sprint, but debate for cardio when tennis
is not cardio either. You have 2-3 times recovery/rest between points than
point length, which is clearly more interval than endurance cardio.
I'm thinking distance work is training the wrong recovery systems.

Imo strength and recovery ability in tennis is far greater than cardio needs.
For strength, I'm talking of movement related strength, like sprints and
shuttle runs; ...not bench press.
In interval sports, I find strength to be far more important than cardio, as it lets
you work well below your max thresholds by raising them and allows for quick recovery.

Maybe you guys are more on target than me on this...just thought it was interesting to discuss.
Also interested in any reference for cardio aspect for interval sports like tennis
and football.

r2473 said:

^^ I'd argue that "endurance" runs and "intervals" compliment each other and are both useful.

But I find people often get tired and "lazy" as the match progresses. To me, that is a function of endurance, not speed. It is why you train up your "cardio base".

And I'd argue more matches (especially rec level) are lost due to the player just getting tired as opposed to the player not have enough raw interval speed on court.

.......just my observation

Click to expand...

If you watched the match between Marin Cilic and Murray recently, Marin was up a set and two breaks in the second set and then he folded like a deck of cards losing the match in 4 sets. I’m sure it wasn’t his lack of conditioning, endurance, HIIT or whatever that might be. What gives?

I’d say that at recreational levels fitness does affect performances but not as much as we make out it to be. I do think that mental exhaustion plays a much larger role because playing tennis is much more just running side to side or back and forth. Added pressures also come from hitting the ball, shot selections, weather conditions, the scores, the opponent, your personal life….just to name a few. Playing tennis becomes more of a mental task than a physical one, and a tough mental task can tire you out more quickly no matter how fit you are.
Mental fatigue can be caused by mental or physical exhaustions. Endurance and HIIT training only address different areas of the physical component and some parts of the mental component. I read somewhere that mental fatigue does not change how the hearts or muscles perform, but it does decrease perceived effort.

I can only speak for myself but my legs are a lot more tired if the score is 2-4 in the third set as supposed to 4-2 in my favor.

maleyoyo said:

I’d say that at recreational levels fitness does affect performances but not as much as we make out it to be.

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Even though I agree totally about the role you mention about mental strain,
I can't agree with the above for most players in singles. Even in doubles matches
that go 3 sets, I see great physical let downs many times, but mental strain
does and may have contributed as you mention.

================================================

5263 said:

For example
like how tennis is very much intervals where you play for about 8 secs, then have 30 secs of recovery.
I think to train for 15-20 sec intervals doing drill like sprints and shuttle runs
then have 10-15 sec recovery would be very productive.

Now notice, I didn't say tennis was a sprint, but that using sprints in training
harder than most tennis requirements, making the tennis be and feel easier.
Funny you argue that tennis isn't a sprint, but debate for cardio when tennis
is not cardio either. You have 2-3 times recovery/rest between points than
point length, which is clearly more interval than endurance cardio.
I'm thinking distance work is training the wrong recovery systems.

Click to expand...

OK. Stick to the 15-20 second intervals. Doesn't bother me. I know in a different thread you suggested that you had lost matches due to fatigue. Do the interval style training you suggest and report back how it works.

But if you are going to "train for what we do playing tennis", make sure that interval session lasts as long as you match does (have fun with those 3-hour interval sessions). Because if not and your sessions only last 20 minutes, are you really training in a manner that mimics a tennis match? And is it any wonder you fatigue after 1,2,3 hours to the point that it affects your play?

Personally, I do both intervals and longer endurance style running. Not slow "stamina" running (at least not for tennis purposes), but "endurance style running.

If you are not clear on the distinction I'm making, I'd be happy to explain.

maleyoyo said:

If you watched the match between Marin Cilic and Murray recently, Marin was up a set and two breaks in the second set and then he folded like a deck of cards losing the match in 4 sets. I’m sure it wasn’t his lack of conditioning, endurance, HIIT or whatever that might be. What gives?

I’d say that at recreational levels fitness does affect performances but not as much as we make out it to be. I do think that mental exhaustion plays a much larger role because playing tennis is much more just running side to side or back and forth. Added pressures also come from hitting the ball, shot selections, weather conditions, the scores, the opponent, your personal life….just to name a few. Playing tennis becomes more of a mental task than a physical one, and a tough mental task can tire you out more quickly no matter how fit you are.
Mental fatigue can be caused by mental or physical exhaustions. Endurance and HIIT training only address different areas of the physical component and some parts of the mental component. I read somewhere that mental fatigue does not change how the hearts or muscles perform, but it does decrease perceived effort.

I can only speak for myself but my legs are a lot more tired if the score is 2-4 in the third set as supposed to 4-2 in my favor.

Click to expand...

In suggest that physical fatigue contributes to mental fatigue.

So I'd wager that if you still feel "fresh" physically in the 3rd set, you will also be fresher mentally. But if you just have a personality that "gives up" when you are down 2-4, well, what can I can say. Grow a set?

Oh, and I would argue that Cilic got tired. He had played a lot of tennis (how many 5-setters did he have to win?) before the Murray match. Getting tired 2-3 hours into a match (after playing 15+ hours of tennis already that week) is a function of "cardio endurance". That's not the only reason he lost, but I think it was a factor. Cilic is in great shape, but that much tennis in that short of time will be hard on anyone. Ask yourself instead how he was able to survive the previous 5-setters?

Ask yourself, does David Ferrer get tired or mentally stupid very often in matches (yes, I saw the Djokovic match)? Well, why not? Take a look at how that guy trains and how much he emphasizes BOTH interval AND endurance style training. Ferrer is a guy that will run several miles AFTER a hard match. Why does he do this? Why not just run a 20-minute interval session a few times a week?

Look, people hate to run. I get it. So any reason to not do it works (the additional pounding will just get you more injured, it will make you slower, etc). That's fine.

Finally, for those that bash anything they see as "distance running", ask yourself what kind of general cardio shape you are in. Do you get tired in matches after 1, 2, 3 hours? Do you think 15 second intervals done for a total of 20 minutes (including rest) will address this?

Can you give even one good reason not to train BOTH intervals and more endurance style (besides the fact that "it sucks")?

r2473 said:

^^ I'd argue that "endurance" runs and "intervals" compliment each other and are both useful.

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This

Anyone else remember the discussion on cardiac hypertrophy from the god awful long squat thread?

Aerobic training results in a heart that is capable of pumping more blood around by volume if I recall

Anaerobic training results in a heart that is better capable of pushing blood around (pressure), or perhaps it's better to say it is more efficient at pumping blood

If you do both, you have a heart that is more efficient at pumping blood and is also capable of doing so in larger volumes

intervals are somewhat anaerobic, so i'm putting them in the same category of weightlifting here (may be incorrect, but short bursts of activity leading to high heart rates followed by prolonged rest periods, sounds anaerobic)

r2473 said:

OK. Stick to the 15-20 second intervals. Doesn't bother me. I know in a different thread you suggested that you had lost matches due to fatigue. Do the interval style training you suggest and report back how it works.

Can you give even one good reason not to train BOTH intervals and more endurance style (besides the fact that "it sucks")?

Click to expand...

Not sure, but you seem a little defensive here. Please don't, as hopefully we are
just discussing methods and options. I've repeatedly stated I'm interested in
your view and don't have all the answers. I'm also biased due to not liking distance
training. I'm admitting these things openly! Besides hating endurance work,
I currently believe it reduces power output.

Now that said, I won that particular match lol, and don't recall ever losing because
of fitness, but your point is well taken and I'm sure I have.
BUT... that match was a long time ago and has nothing to do with HIIT, as in I had never heard of it back then. I was doing no training except tennis itself then.

Last Spring at 51, I was doing HIIT/CrossFit workouts, lost 11 lbs and felt the best
I've felt on court in a long time. Felt amazing on court like TCF is saying, even
though still 20 over wt then.
Great thing is you don't have to do 3hrs of training due to HIIT as tennis
is a such a lower threshold than the HIIT work. Long explanation required.
I think 2 good ones per wk when play is enough,
with 3 times needed if not playing much.

Right now, I'm getting back into it with some good adjustments to some
of the intervals. I'll try to let you know how it goes. I'm still very interested
in any ref that distance work is good for recovery in interval sports like tennis.

r2473 said:

OK. In suggest that physical fatigue contributes to mental fatigue.

So I'd wager that if you still feel "fresh" physically in the 3rd set, you will also be fresher mentally. But if you just have a personality that "gives up" when you are down 2-4, well, what can I can say. Grow a set?

Oh, and I would argue that Cilic got tired. He had played a lot of tennis (how many 5-setters did he have to win?) before the Murray match. Getting tired 2-3 hours into a match (after playing 15+ hours of tennis already that week) is a function of "cardio endurance". That's not the only reason he lost, but I think it was a factor. Cilic is in great shape, but that much tennis in that short of time will be hard on anyone. Ask yourself instead how he was able to survive the previous 5-setters?

Ask yourself, does David Ferrer get tired or mentally stupid very often in matches (yes, I saw the Djokovic match)? Well, why not? Take a look at how that guy trains and how much he emphasizes BOTH interval AND endurance style training. Ferrer is a guy that will run several miles AFTER a hard match. Why does he do this? Why not just run a 20-minute interval session a few times a week?

Look, people hate to run. I get it. So any reason to not do it works (the additional pounding will just get you more injured, it will make you slower, etc). That's fine.

Finally, for those that bash anything they see as "distance running", ask yourself what kind of general cardio shape you are in. Do you get tired in matches after 1, 2, 3 hours? Do you think 15 second intervals done for a total of 20 minutes (including rest) will address this?

Can you give even one good reason not to train BOTH intervals and more endurance style (besides the fact that "it sucks")?

Click to expand...

If you watch Cilic over the years, his last performance didn’t really surprise me. His consistency is just that, inconsistent. To me that’s mental.
Not too long ago there was much talk about Verdasco going to Vegas to train with ex-Agassi trainer to get into tip top shape running hills and in the desert and what not. And it showed, he looked amazing and played really well for a while. Remember that 5 set match with Nadal? Where is Verdasco now?
You think if Gasquet trains like Ferrer, will he be just as good? You think they nickname Ferrer ‘The Beast’ for his tenacity or physical prowness?
I train for fitness myself by taking intense 90 min cardio tennis on court on top of running.
All I’m saying is tennis fitness is like increased revenue or spending cuts. I think too much emphasis on how to improve fitness, but not much attention on how to spend it more efficiently on court. The latter is an easier option.

5263 said:

I'm still very interested
in any ref that distance work is good for recovery in interval sports like tennis.

Click to expand...

Haven't really looked for any. I'm really just going with my experience.

But here is the first thing I found on google:

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/tennis-training.html

A tennis training program has to meet the demands of an all-round physically challenging, individual sport.

For a tennis player to perform at their best, they must have just the right mix of aerobic and anaerobic endurance, explosive strength and power, speed off the mark and agility. In fact, the amount of strength, speed, agility and flexibility conditioning a player is prepared to undertake has been linked to the standard they play at (1).

A tennis match is characterized by repeated bouts of high-intensity activity. However, a typical rally may last about 6 seconds (2) and not much more than 10 seconds even on a clay court. Between points there is the luxury of up to 25 seconds rest - 90 seconds if it's a changeover. Hence, the overall physical demand is closer to prolonged moderate-intensity exercise (such as distance running) than a true multisprint sport (such as soccer)

A tennis training program must be based on solid aerobic endurance to sustain a high work rate for the duration of a game that may last several hours. Anaerobic endurance is also an essential component so that power over each rally, and in each shot within a rally can be maintained to same high level

maleyoyo said:

You think if Gasquet trains like Ferrer, will he be just as good? You think they nickname Ferrer ‘The Beast’ for his tenacity or physical prowness?

Click to expand...

I think Gasquet could (and recently has) incresed his fitness. And I think it would (and has) resulted in better tennis, especially in the later stages of matches / tournaments.

As for Ferrer, let's take away his superior fitness. How much of a "beast" do you think he is now? Do you think he can play his grinding style match after match? He can be as "tenacious" as he wants to be. Won't do him much good huffing and puffing on the sidelines. Remember how unfit Murray was a few years ago? He was still damn good at tennis, but lost some matches due to fitness. So he got into shape.

Cilic is inconsistent (well, for a top 20 player). So to be "super elite" he has other things to address as well.

Of course physical fitness is just a piece of the overall picture. You still have to be good at tennis.

From your link-

Interval Training for Sport-Specific Endurance
Interval training is more demanding than continuous type training and brings about different adaptations. It is also more suitable for multi-sprint sports such as tennis...

^^ Which is why I said that I don't really look for articles to back up my assertions. We both found blurbs on the same link that back up different things. So now we simply use our peculiar prejudices to decide with is "right".

I've had good luck with a combination. That's what I stick with. Not only is it good for tennis, but is good for "overall health and fitness" as well. Again, just in my experience.

Do you want to hear my wierd ideas on nutrition? Ever read what Phelps eats to fuel his activity? It ain't bean sprouts. (But this is getting off track).

My point is, at some point, you just have to "do stuff" and see how it works for you and your individual situation. "Scientific studies" might point you in the right direction, but the final judgement comes from simply "trusting yourself" and "listening to your body".

I think things can be effectively done in lots of different ways. Some of this will depend on your individual situation (body type, age, time you have, etc). And if you "don't like distance running" and won't train consistently, then of course that's not the thing to do. The best training is always going to be the one you actually do, no matter if it is the most theoretically efficient or not.

r2473 said:

^^ Which is why I said that I don't really look for articles to back up my assertions. We both found blurbs on the same link that back up different things. So now we simply use our peculiar prejudices to decide with is "right".

My point is, at some point, you just have to "do stuff" and see how it works for you and your individual situation. "Scientific studies" might point you in the right direction, but the final judgement comes from simply "trusting yourself" and "listening to your body".

Click to expand...

Well, I havn't decided what is right... and that was why I asked him for info on
his points. I wanted to see what backed those ideas and see if I needed to
modify my points.
I'd still like to hear any more refs on it since he stated it with such conviction.

I agree with your points and realize that it also different for different bodies as well.
Cool that you are so into your overall fitness!
thanks.

Post his response (if you get one). I think it would interest everyone.

It probably won't really change minds one way or the other, but it is another voice and another perspective.

r2473 said:

I think Gasquet could (and recently has) incresed his fitness. And I think it would (and has) resulted in better tennis, especially in the later stages of matches / tournaments.

As for Ferrer, let's take away his superior fitness. How much of a "beast" do you think he is now? Do you think he can play his grinding style match after match? He can be as "tenacious" as he wants to be. Won't do him much good huffing and puffing on the sidelines. Remember how unfit Murray was a few years ago? He was still damn good at tennis, but lost some matches due to fitness. So he got into shape.

Cilic is inconsistent (well, for a top 20 player). So to be "super elite" he has other things to address as well.

Of course physical fitness is just a piece of the overall picture. You still have to be good at tennis.

Click to expand...

Ferrer successful playing style, baseline grinder, suits his best qualities fitness and mental toughness. A gifted athlete like Monfils can run side to side all day long but only shows up to play every other match.
Ah Murray…since with Lendl, how many emotional outbursts have you seen? How many rackets has he smashed? How many times he stares and swears at his box or himself when making a mistake or things not going well? Has he gotten incredibly fitter over the last 6 months or just managed his energy better? His game is virtually unchanged. I’d argue that Murray has to be fit even a few years ago to be a top 5 with his type of game.
The difference-maker is his mental attitude, at least on court IMO.

maleyoyo said:

The difference-maker is his mental attitude, at least on court IMO.

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Yes, he has been fit for years and yes, his mental attitude improved, but it
largely comes from being able to hit big Fhs without missing every 1/3 one.
Likely that is why he was always mad and frustrated.
He has way more confidence in the Fh now and good reason for it.
It will even improve more I think, so look out big 3....It could get rough,

maleyoyo said:

Ferrer successful playing style, baseline grinder, suits his best qualities fitness and mental toughness. A gifted athlete like Monfils can run side to side all day long but only shows up to play every other match.
Ah Murray…since with Lendl, how many emotional outbursts have you seen? How many rackets has he smashed? How many times he stares and swears at his box or himself when making a mistake or things not going well? Has he gotten incredibly fitter over the last 6 months or just managed his energy better? His game is virtually unchanged. I’d argue that Murray has to be fit even a few years ago to be a top 5 with his type of game.
The difference-maker is his mental attitude, at least on court IMO.

Click to expand...

Let's just say playrs are a "gestalt" instead of trying to isolate this or that. Each part influences the other parts (positively or negatively). The whole is greater than a sum of its parts. But the whole is often only as strong as the weakest link too (if the weakest link can be exposed by the opponent).

With Murray, I was thinking about his fitness 5-6 years ago, not 6 months ago. He hasn't had a real fitness weakness for a while.

Endurance training for tennis differs from endurance training for other sports, such as marathon running. Endurance is most commonly associated with sports that require a steady pace of a certain type of physical activity. Tennis players, however, require an endurance that enables them to consistently perform high-intensity sprints, rather than long and slow runs. To develop that type of endurance, you should incorporate tennis-specific exercises into your training program.

Interval Exercising
As a tennis player, you need the ability to make explosive moves at any point during a match, even if the match lasts for more than 2 hours. Cardiovascular exercises can help you develop this athletic dynamic, but instead of riding a bike or jogging for long distances at slow speeds, the cardio exercises are performed at high-intensity bursts using interval training. For example, sit on an exercise bike and pedal as fast as you can for 30 seconds, and then pedal slowly for 30 to 60 seconds. This is the active recovery period. Repeat this sequence of fast and slow pedaling for at least 20 minutes. This approach can also be used with running, swimming, rollerblading and jumping rope.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/417541-endurance-exercises-for-tennis-players/#ixzz26Tj4MXXa

I make a distinction between "endurance" and "stamina".

For example,

I might do a 5-mile run at 7:00 minute/mile pace (or maybe a 3-mile run at 6:45). This pace will probably have me ~160 bpm. That is an "endurance run". This pace is "hard", but not "too hard". For me, this is the "bread and butter" workout. I try to do these 4-times a week when I'm in "training mode".

I might do a 15-mile run at 8:30 minute/mile pace. This pace might have me around ~130-140 bpm. This is a "stamina run". This pace is "moderate to easy". You actually don't want to be doing these "too fast".

I might do 1-mile repeats at 6:00 minute/mile pace (or 800m repeats at 2:50 or 400m repeats at 1:25 or 200m repeats at :38 ). This pace will have me around ~170 bpm. This is an "interval workout". This pace is "hard". I can only do 1-2 of these workouts a week. If I attempt more, I can't recover (and I actually don't think I get much of a training benefit doing more than 2 a week anyway. The body needs time to adapt and grow).

I could do full out sprints for 20-seconds followed by 20-second rest periods. I'm not really sure what my bpm would be. These is a "HIIT workout".

I'd suggest concentrating on "endurance" and "interval" style runs. "Stamina" won't be too applicable to tennis (but won't hurt you). I'm not too keen on "HIIT" myself, but surely it would help your tennis fitness for short bursts. I just think "intervals" are good enough for me.

Another interesting thing to note is how short in duration these workouts are (except the stamina run). The "magic" happens through consistency (training everyday). Each workout builds on the previous one. Each workout is "hard", but not so hard that you can't meet the time goal AND recover in time to train the next day (and the next day and........)

from USTA
When training the players the USTA works with, we usually do some sort of "running" four to five times a week. The running session usually lasts between 20 – 40 minutes, but there is a lot of variety in the types of running we do.

You’ll note that we put running in quotation marks, because much of what we do is different from the long, slow distance running many tennis players are familiar with – there is some long distance running, but the “running” sessions also involve footwork/tennis agility work, or interval runs. The type of running depends upon the periodized strength and conditioning schedule of the player.

Generally, the long distance running and longer interval repeats (400s and 800s) are done during the preparation phase when you are getting ready for the season. Shorter, higher intensity intervals (20s, 40s, 60s, 100s, 200s, and 400s) and on-court footwork/tennis agility are the main focus during the pre-competition phase in the weeks leading up to main competition or competitions. During the competition phase of the season, on-court footwork/tennis agility is the “running” focus.
-------------------------------------------------
***I did also see some sites that promoted distance training for tennis, but
they seemed to be very general and not focused what to do.

The thing (I think) that is left unsaid in many of these articles, is that the "trainees" in question have already established their "cardio base".

For example, in the article above, these are players the USTA "works with". Meaning, they are probably spending quite a few hours on court each week just playing tennis. This alone will establish quite an endurance base, and probably additional is not necessary for this athlete. This does not describe me at all.

I'm thinking more about Joe and Jane "league / local tournament, etc" athlete. A rec player.

If you are talking about "academy", "college", or "professional" type players, that's a whole different story. They play A LOT of tennis.

r2473 said:

The thing (I think) that is left unsaid in many of these articles, is that the "trainees" in question have already established their "cardio base".

Click to expand...

You may be right. I'm just raising the issue questioning the whole idea of cardio
base. I'm not currently seeing
the need to train distance for a sport that is not played that way. I think it is
mis-training the body's recovery systems for something not used. Distance
running is better than nothing and may fill other desires, but don't currently see
a need if the interval training is done right.

I'm thinking it's just a hold over from past programs, that people are not ready
to let go of yet; sort of like starting student with linear strokes as a base that
some believe in, even though it's teaching a false muscle memory that will have
to be re-trained later for top tournament play.

Again, you may be right.

^^I'd guess 90%+ of people believe exactly as you do.

However, I'd also suggest that these very same people have never built their "cardio base", so they don't really know what they are missing.

I'm suggesting that "the base" is well worth building.

If you can get out and play 6 days a week, that would be the best IMO for the rec athlete. That type of consistency should get the base you "need".

5263 said:

You may be right. I'm just raising the issue questioning the whole idea of cardio
base. I'm not currently seeing
the need to train distance for a sport that is not played that way. I think it is
mis-training the body's recovery systems for something not used. Distance
running is better than nothing and may fill other desires, but don't currently see
a need if the interval training is done right.

I'm thinking it's just a hold over from past programs, that people are not ready
to let go of yet; sort of like starting student with linear strokes as a base that
some believe in, even though it's teaching a false muscle memory that will have
to be re-trained later for top tournament play.

Again, you may be right.

Click to expand...

I run once a week with audio training music and a heart rate monitor. The goal is to put myself out of my comfort zone consistently. I find that beside working on my physical fitness, enduring a difficult and challenging activity for a long duration is a great way to enhance my mental toughness. It helps my mental focus as well preventing those stupid mental lapses.
Distance running does have its benefits, for me.

maleyoyo said:

I run once a week with audio training music and a heart rate monitor.

Distance running does have its benefits, for me.

Click to expand...

both of you make excellent points

If you have ever trained for a combat sport one of the keys to building your program is road work. Pounding the pavement, long distance road work. I have done some fencing and other forms of sword play and I will tell you that though a point may last 3 seconds, being ready for the next point is entirely dependent on how much roadwork I have done recently.

maggmaster said:

If you have ever trained for a combat sport one of the keys to building your program is road work. Pounding the pavement, long distance road work. I have done some fencing and other forms of sword play and I will tell you that though a point may last 3 seconds, being ready for the next point is entirely dependent on how much roadwork I have done recently.

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How do you train (off-season; base building) for fencing?

Specifically, what types of running distances and intensities do you train?

What does a typical week/month of training look like?

Unfortunately I started too late at fencing to be anything but decent. I fenced with some of the club guys at college and then after college stuck with it for a few years. The one really good fencer that I knew and sparred with a bit was a female junior Olympiad and she ran between 5 and 7 miles most mornings on and off season. I ran with her for one semester at college and she was a decent distance runner, I was a bit better but I came from a soccer background. She called it roadwork and when I continued fencing after college it always helped me to recover between points.

maggmaster said:

If you have ever trained for a combat sport one of the keys to building your program is road work. Pounding the pavement, long distance road work. I have done some fencing and other forms of sword play and I will tell you that though a point may last 3 seconds, being ready for the next point is entirely dependent on how much roadwork I have done recently.

Click to expand...

I have trained for combat sports and it seems to me that CrossFit/HIIT work is
clearly dominating that training currently and the focus on road work has taken
a back seat.
Also in Football we did little to no road work, instead focusing on HITT Interval
drills.

I'm sure road work is way better than no work, but suspect it is a distance 2ond
to well structured HIIT Interval training if you have the discipline.

"A common phrase in today's athletic community is sport-specific training. Well guess what, boxers can make their running program more sport-specific (anaerobic) by training around the work-to-rest ratios of an actual bout. This style of running is often referred to as interval training. "

from a boxer's site, and yes, he did continue with distance work on some days, but imo this is mainly just a holdover from the past.
It will be interesting to note over the next few years.

You act like interval running is a brand new invention that was unknown to mankind just a few years ago.

Anyway, I think you have the information you need. Now, go out there and kill those intervals 5-7 days a week.

r2473 said:

You act like interval running is a brand new invention that was unknown to mankind just a few years ago.

Anyway, I think you have the information you need. Now, go out there and kill those intervals 5-7 days a week.

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I don't act that way at all. You must be confusing that from the quote I mentioned where he mentioned how it newer to boxing?
In fact I mentioned how when I played football (30 yrs ago) we did little to no distance work,
suggesting it was more HIIT/Intervals.

OP has HIIT as a myth or something which Imo is way off.
I find that most that don't like HIIT/CrossFit, have a big misconceptions on it.
It got me interested and I'm sharing what I find that supports my opinion. like...

"Don’t Train to be Slow

Muscle is composed of three different types of fibers: fast twitch, slow twitch, and intermediate. Fast twitch fibers are the ones that facilitate the explosive and powerful movements that are required in sports like tennis. An individual’s composition of muscle fiber is determined by genetics, and as you would guess, the most explosive athletes are genetically gifted with a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers.

However, it’s important to realize that the function of intermediate fibers can adapt and more closely resemble either of the other two fiber types. For obvious reasons, it’s in the best interest of a tennis player to have as much fast twitch capability as possible. Endurance training encourages the intermediate fibers to transition more toward slow twitch, and in effect, reduces an athlete’s capacity to be explosive. As such, a tennis player that trains for endurance is also training to become slower and less powerful!

Tennis Players Also Need Endurance

Although sports like tennis rely heavily on power and quickness, many people will argue that endurance is still important. This is absolutely true, but you don’t need to train specifically for endurance to achieve it!

As I said in the beginning of this article, if you train the anaerobic energy system properly, it will have a carry over effect that will train the aerobic energy system as well. Research shows that high intensity interval training produces an increase in aerobic capacity that is comparable the effects of endurance training. But unlike endurance training, interval training also improves anaerobic capacity, saves a lot of time and energy, reduces the amount of wear and tear on the athlete, and avoids the risk of provoking intermediate muscle fibers to transition toward slow twitch behavior."

You've convinced me.

Tennis players should only do HIIT or Interval training.

r2473 said:

You've convinced me.

Tennis players should only do HIIT or Interval training.

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No need to take it like that...just sharing info.

My take is steady distance training is better than no training, but can be
upgraded with other aspects like well designed HIIT and intervals.
The Myths of HIIT are misunderstandings of folks jumping to extremes.

5263 said:

No need to take it like that...just sharing info.

My take is steady distance training is better than no training, but can be
upgraded with other aspects like well designed HIIT and intervals.
The Myths of HIIT are misunderstandings of folks jumping to extremes.

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Not at all. After reading the info you posted, I've done a 180 in my thinking.

Thanks for taking the time to post the information.

Meh HIIT is awesome and actually improves aerobic endurance along with anaerobic capacity. Basketball players, American football players, and tennis players will all benefit from HIIT like interval training.

It's also better for weight loss, and will get you into shape faster. I remember when I was walking 10 miles a day, and 4 month in I was still getting winded when I would play sports. 3 months of tire tosses, sledge hammer, and sprints have me able to hang with just about anyone without getting too tired.

Another thing I always ask myself is who has the best body? A marathoner, a middle distance runner or a sprinter.

Most people want a sprinters body and the level of real world fitness that comes with it.

r2473 said:

Not at all. After reading the info you posted, I've done a 180 in my thinking.

Thanks for taking the time to post the information.

Click to expand...

Ok, sorry, thought you were messing with me,