Nadal’s low ball FH

toly · Oct 30, 2012

Mntlblok: The cool still photo that Toly posted with Rafa's racket almost vertical was excellent for demonstration of what happens for sidespin on a high ball. I'm betting that a similar photo could be found of Roddick with a near vertical racket, but with the head pointing to the ground

Here is Nadal’s low ball FH with the head pointing to the ground.

Figure 1. Nadal’s FH high speed camera

Figure 2. Nadal’s FH medium speed camera

Figure 3. Nadal’s FH low speed camera

With this type of FH Nadal can generate extreme clockwise (above view) sidespin. He even sometimes hits around left net post below net cord.

LeeD · Oct 30, 2012

You should also post a reverse forehand sequential, as he does that quite often off lower balls.

toly · Oct 30, 2012

LeeD said:
You should also post a reverse forehand sequential, as he does that quite often off lower balls.

I don’t have any good video about that FH. Maybe you know one.

LeeD · Oct 30, 2012

I have no technology.
But since we're showing steep swingpath, I'd think his reverse forehand would have a steeper swingpath, that's all.

mntlblok · Oct 30, 2012

Love those photos. I suspect those would have some left-to-right curve on the ball flight, but I'm thinking that a ball that's more like half that height at contact would be needed for a real "hooker". Don't really know.

An interesting thing that I've noted about a lot of Rafa's finishes is that they're more like "fake" reverse finishes.

His racket hand actually passes his body line, but then suddenly whips back to the other side. No idea why it happens. I think maybe he's just "different". Maybe it's to keep his arm from flying off.

Hope he gets back to being healthy, but he sure looks like he's putting an awful lot of stress on an awful lot of body parts. . .

Kevin

user92626 · Oct 30, 2012

mntlblok said:
An interesting thing that I've noted about a lot of Rafa's finishes is that they're more like "fake" reverse finishes. His racket hand actually passes his body line, but then suddenly whips back to the other side. No idea why it happens. I think maybe he's just "different". Maybe it's to keep his arm from flying off.
Kevin

I have no idea what you're refering to.

To me, Nadal doesn't hit much differently than other pros. The guy is just stronger than most, loves topspin so he hits much low2high, ie reverse fh, and he can do that cuz he's strong enough and talented.

dominikk1985 · Oct 30, 2012

I mid thigh now called a low ball on todays surfaces?

In the 70s mid thigh was normal height and below knees has low. now chest high is normal

.

LeeD · Oct 30, 2012

Unless you play on slick cement courts, and half the guys slice everything low and skidded, short and to the corners.

Xizel · Oct 30, 2012

user92626 said:
I have no idea what you're refering to.

To me, Nadal doesn't hit much differently than other pros. The guy is just stronger than most, loves topspin so he hits much low2high, ie reverse fh, and he can do that cuz he's strong enough and talented.

He's saying that Nadal finishes like a typical WW but whips it around at the last moment, therefore making it a "fake reverse" finish that has minimal effect rather than the reverse that finishes on the same side and doesn't pass the midline of the body (like a recovery shot taken late). It's very easy to distinguish his point if you play this shot as well.

LeeD · Oct 30, 2012

Should the pros be accountable by OUR rules?
Or should WE adapt to their rules?
Nadal hits the way he does, his rules.

user92626 · Oct 30, 2012

Xizel said:
He's saying that Nadal finishes like a typical WW but whips it around at the last moment, therefore making it a "fake reverse" finish that has minimal effect rather than the reverse that finishes on the same side and doesn't pass the midline of the body (like a recovery shot taken late). It's very easy to distinguish his point if you play this shot as well.

Again, this is impossible for me to understand. "whips it around at the last moment"?

Go back to the photos above, refering to photo 2, if he (or any pro) doesn't hit like that, getting the racket around like that, how else would they hit? To me, that's just the only way to hit the ball more or less.

martini1 · Oct 30, 2012

And be careful with just looking at one shot analysis like these. Unless you watched the whole aftermath of the shot you cannot tell whether if that is a good shot, or what kind of shot it was. Any camera person can shot something in high speed and then got used by the editor for many reasons. But the shot may or may not be a true typical shot.

On the Rafa low ball. Most of the time I would expect a reverse fh over his head. And the ball doesn't land deep due to the spin. The wrap around the body finish usually indicates he is going for a higher ball, or a flatter shot, or even an inside out/in type attack shots.

toly · Oct 30, 2012

martini1 said:
And be careful with just looking at one shot analysis like these. Unless you watched the whole aftermath of the shot you cannot tell whether if that is a good shot, or what kind of shot it was. Any camera person can shot something in high speed and then got used by the editor for many reasons. But the shot may or may not be a true typical shot.

On the Rafa low ball. Most of the time I would expect a reverse fh over his head. And the ball doesn't land deep due to the spin. The wrap around the body finish usually indicates he is going for a higher ball, or a flatter shot, or even an inside out/in type attack shots.

I believe that I posted the photos of Nadal favorite FH, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtcjx8XwrqI and

mntlblok · Oct 30, 2012

user92626 said:
Again, this is impossible for me to understand. "whips it around at the last moment"?

Go back to the photos above, refering to photo 2, if he (or any pro) doesn't hit like that, getting the racket around like that, how else would they hit? To me, that's just the only way to hit the ball more or less.

Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSr6dfxhMUw
Maybe it's some kind of "hybrid" reverse finish - a steep swing, but one in which his hand still crosses the body line, but then sort of "helicopters" back over to the left side of his head.

Kevin

mntlblok · Oct 30, 2012

toly said:
I believe that I posted the photos of Nadal favorite FH, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtcjx8XwrqI

Yep, those, too.

tennisplayer1993 · Oct 30, 2012

i love his forehand motion

martini1 · Oct 30, 2012

A few years back Tennis magazine's web site got a great article on Rafa fh. There are 2 animated gif on Rafa with the different finishes.

Here's Rafa inside out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsLgd4eH3Q4

All across the chest finish.

toly · Oct 30, 2012

martini1 said:
A few years back Tennis magazine's web site got a great article on Rafa fh. There are 2 animated gif on Rafa with the different finishes.

Here's Rafa inside out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsLgd4eH3Q4

All across the chest finish.

They are warm up or training shots which usually have nothing to do with real game strokes.

5263 · Oct 30, 2012

mntlblok said:
Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSr6dfxhMUw
Maybe it's some kind of "hybrid" reverse finish - a steep swing, but one in which his hand still crosses the body line, but then sort of "helicopters" back over to the left side of his head.

Kevin

Yes, we had the discussion where I posted about this several months back when
discussing how RL started calling this a rev Fh with Pete...not realizing that most
times Pete did just what Rafa does here, crossing the mid line with the strokes
with such force, steepness, and momentum that the racket continues up and
over the head, back over to the starting side as you mention.
imo it is more obvious with Rafa, but still the same with most so-called Rev Fhs.
Imo "bolo" or "lasso" Fh is a better description for this reason and pre-dates RL
anyway.

martini1 · Oct 30, 2012

toly said:
They are warm up or training shots which usually have nothing to do with real game strokes.

He is obviously practicing his inside out fh, with a rhythm and pattern going on, and with pace. If you think these fh are **** then sorry, I can't help you when you are arguing on every single thing. Match strokes are harder to analyze on the contrary. There are a thousand things going on and many are misses or change of direction, on the run, or in hurry.

toly · Oct 31, 2012

martini1 said:
The wrap around the body finish usually indicates he is going for a higher ball, or a flatter shot, or even an inside out/in type attack shots.

This is true. Below you can see example of Nadal inside out high ball flatter FH winner. He has the wrap around follow through.

This is very difficult shot due to he applies very intensively wrist ulnar deviation and arm pronation.

mntlblok · Oct 31, 2012

toly said:
This is very difficult shot due to he applies very intensively wrist ulnar deviation and arm pronation.

I bet you meant "radial".

toly · Oct 31, 2012

mntlblok said:
I bet you meant "radial".

I’m talking about wrist ulnar deviation, see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6013209#post6013209 post #180. :shock:

mntlblok · Oct 31, 2012

toly said:
I’m talking about wrist ulnar deviation, see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6013209#post6013209 post #180. :shock:

With that grip, I'm sure I'm not qualified to even *guess* what the body parts do during the stroke.

It sure looks to me like *radial* deviation would be what happens with a more eastern/SW grip on a topspin forehand.

I *did* hear once, long ago, that swinging a full western grip forehand would feel like "skipping a stone", and certainly *that* would be an ulnarly deviation move. Hmmm. . .

Fun photo, regardless.

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

It's radial and also ulnar deviation which is what top players use.

toly · Oct 31, 2012

mntlblok said:
With that grip, I'm sure I'm not qualified to even *guess* what the body parts do during the stroke.

It sure looks to me like *radial* deviation would be what happens with a more eastern/SW grip on a topspin forehand.

I *did* hear once, long ago, that swinging a full western grip forehand would feel like "skipping a stone", and certainly *that* would be an ulnarly deviation move. Hmmm. . .

Fun photo, regardless.

There are some exceptions, such as Federer, see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6025418#post6025418 post #213.

bhupaes · Oct 31, 2012

For the life of me, I can't see how active ulnar deviation can happen, even with a fully western grip. Because, even in this case, the arm is pronating, and the shoulder is internally rotating. Try deviating your wrist towards the ulnar side while pronating the arm - it results in a strange motion that cannot possibly help the FH, IMO. What am I missing?

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

bhupaes said:
For the life of me, I can't see how active ulnar deviation can happen, even with a fully western grip. Because, even in this case, the arm is pronating, and the shoulder is internally rotating. Try deviating your wrist towards the ulnar side while pronating the arm - it results in a strange motion that cannot possibly help the FH, IMO. What am I missing?

Who said there's ulnar deviation while pronating?

bhupaes · Oct 31, 2012

Cheetah said:
Who said there's deviation while pronating?

In that case, when exactly does the radial-to-ulnar deviation occur in a FH after the forward swing starts, assuming a fully western grip? Maximum ulnar deviation should be reached in the pat-the-dog position, no? I use the SW grip (except for short putaways, when I go western), and that's maybe why I can't even visualize it...

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

If you have a forehand that employs SSC then it will occur. Most likely you are swinging with a too stiff arm/wrist instead of an extremely loose arm/wrist.

The sequence is:
takeback: pronation
forward swing: suppination/ulnar deviation -> pronation/radial dev

if you have a loose arm/wrist how can you NOT ulnar deviate?

bhupaes · Oct 31, 2012

Cheetah said:
If you have a forehand that employs SSC then it will occur. Most likely you are swinging with a too stiff arm/wrist instead of an extremely loose arm/wrist.

The sequence is:
takeback: pronation
forward swing: suppination/ulnar deviation -> pronation/radial dev

if you have a loose arm/wrist how can you NOT ulnar deviate?

But this will happen during the very early part of the forward swing, and will be very close to or at the bottom of the swing for those with stiff wrists. If this is what you are saying, I believe we are on the same page.

I think what toly is saying is that ulnar deviation happens at or near contact - as in hammering the ball, literally. I don't see how this is possible, since this is when pronation would happen and the deviation (if any) of the wrist would be towards the radial side.

mntlblok · Oct 31, 2012

Cheetah said:
If you have a forehand that employs SSC then it will occur. Most likely you are swinging with a too stiff arm/wrist instead of an extremely loose arm/wrist.

The sequence is:
takeback: pronation
forward swing: suppination/ulnar deviation -> pronation/radial dev

if you have a loose arm/wrist how can you NOT ulnar deviate?

Wow. Looks like I'm getting ready to learn something here. . .

(BTW, is SSC something like MTM??

) Wait, it must be that stretch/shortening cycle thing.

Oh, so yer saying that the "lag" that causes the butt of the racket to point to the right is the "SSC" part and that's when the first part (of what you listed above) of the forward swing happens? I can definitely see the ulnar deviation happening there (not so clear about the suppination at that stage, though).

toly · Oct 31, 2012

mntlblok said:
Wow. Looks like I'm getting ready to learn something here. . .

(BTW, is SSC something like MTM?? ) Wait, it must be that stretch/shortening cycle thing.

Oh, so yer saying that the "lag" that causes the butt of the racket to point to the right is the "SSC" part and that's when the first part (of what you listed above) of the forward swing happens? I can definitely see the ulnar deviation happening there (not so clear about the suppination at that stage, though).

Djokovic front of the forearm is facing the sky. To bring forearm into this position we have to supinate as much as possible. The extreme supination before impact also allows us to use pronation during impact very efficiently (to create topspin).
To produce power, Djokovic also uses actively wrist ulnar deviation that moves the racquet forward. Thus, before that, he should provide maximum of the wrist radial deviation.

The main concern, when we bend the wrist back, should be wrist radial deviation. Involuntarily there also is some wrist extension, which we should keep in more stable position (like Djokovic does), otherwise wrist flexion can open racket face and ball goes out. Djokovic keeps the wrist in bent back position by using wrist extension.
So, we shouldn’t use wrist flexion before and during contact, but only the wrist ulnar deviation and pronation.

5263 · Oct 31, 2012

toly said:
So, we shouldn’t use wrist flexion before and during contact, but only the wrist ulnar deviation and pronation.

Isn't that all predicated on his stroke and his grip?

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

bhupaes said:
I think what toly is saying is that ulnar deviation happens at or near contact - as in hammering the ball, literally.

Is that what he's saying? Thats not what is happening.

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

mntlblok said:
Wow. Looks like I'm getting ready to learn something here. . .

(BTW, is SSC something like MTM?? ) Wait, it must be that stretch/shortening cycle thing.

Oh, so yer saying that the "lag" that causes the butt of the racket to point to the right is the "SSC" part and that's when the first part (of what you listed above) of the forward swing happens? I can definitely see the ulnar deviation happening there (not so clear about the suppination at that stage, though).

Yes. And supination happens at that moment too. Look at the wrist and forearm here. SSC, supination, ulnar dev http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AJYfkJ4hc&t=11s

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

toly said:
Djokovic keeps the wrist in bent back position by using wrist extension.
So, we shouldn’t use wrist flexion before and during contact, but only the wrist ulnar deviation and pronation.

Correct no conscious wrist flex before and during contact. But the top guys are not making contact with a bent back wrist unless going i/o and some other exceptions. If the wrist is bent back it's only a very subtle amount.

This image of Djoko you have here is of a neutral wrist. It is not laid back at all. The racquet is angled like that because of the grip.

mntlblok · Oct 31, 2012

Cheetah said:
Yes. And supination happens at that moment too. Look at the wrist and forearm here. SSC, supination, ulnar dev http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AJYfkJ4hc&t=11s

Thanks! Some weird stuff going on with those extreme grips that I've never even thought about.

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

not only extreme grips. the other grips too.
it's not weird. it's natural and bio-mechanically correct. what's weird is probably what you do on your forehand which is swing tightly and manipulate the racquet incorrectly or too much and fight natural forces.

toly · Oct 31, 2012

Cheetah said:
Correct no conscious wrist flex before and during contact. But the top guys are not making contact with a bent back wrist unless going i/o and some other exceptions. If the wrist is bent back it's only a very subtle amount.

This image of Djoko you have here is of a neutral wrist. It is not laid back at all. The racquet is angled like that because of the grip.

The wrist can rotate about two orthogonal axes:
1. Wrist ulnar/radial deviation axis with approximate angular range -45° < ϴ <+45°.
2. Wrist extension/flexion axis with approximate angular range -90° < ϕ <+90°.

The wrist is neutral if and only if both of these angles are equal to zero.

I’ve have never seen that Djokovic keeps his wrist neutral at contact and practically nobody does. Maybe you know different definition of neutral wrist?

Arantxa Rus also maintain her wrist bent back at contact (wrist extension).

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

I’ve have never seen that Djokovic keeps his wrist neutral at contact and practically nobody does.

The picture you yourself posted of djokovic shows him making contact with a neutral wrist.

Don't make me post a 100 pics showing the opposite of what you just said.

toly · Oct 31, 2012

Cheetah said:
The picture you yourself posted of djokovic shows him making contact with a neutral wrist.

Don't make me post a 100 pics showing the opposite of what you just said.

OK, it isn't really important.

Cheetah · Oct 31, 2012

hold your racquet in a neutral wrist position and arm in ball contact position. no deviation or extension in the wrist. then look at that in the mirror. Then tell me what you see in the mirror doesn't look 'more like how the pros look when they make contact' than what you normally do.

mntlblok · Nov 1, 2012

Cheetah said:
not only extreme grips. the other grips too.
it's not weird. it's natural and bio-mechanically correct. what's weird is probably what you do on your forehand which is swing tightly and manipulate the racquet incorrectly or too much and fight natural forces.

You can't even imagine how bad *my* forehand looks.

(Due to wrist issues, I now have to slice everything).

As toly sez, it ain't real important - especially for me. But, it *will* be fun to ponder some of this for a bit. Are you also saying that the wrist ain't laid back on a SW wiper??

5263 · Nov 1, 2012

mntlblok said:
Are you also saying that the wrist ain't laid back on a SW wiper??

that would be an odd conclusion unless he is speaking to just one type grip.

Cheetah · Nov 1, 2012

mntlblok said:
Are you also saying that the wrist ain't laid back on a SW wiper??

If the fh employs supination/pronation/deviation using ssc and the player has time to set up and is not going i/o then yes, not laid back at contact on sw or very slightly laid back to situation or being late, jammed, timing off, not relaxed etc.

If you hit this type of fh it is obvious that the target area for the wrist at contact is neutral. most rec players don't have this type of fh and were taught to lay the wrist back so they disagree or refuse to see it or can't understand how this is possible etc. Purposely laying the wrist back is fine but that is a different type of fh. I'm talking about players that employ SSC and have that smooth looking modern atp style fh.

the wrist moves a lot with this type of fh. there's involuntary supination/deviation/extension/flexation/pronation going on as a result of the ssc action. the wrist and forearm are stretched at the beginning of the swing and 'un-stretch' during the swing in an attempt to get back to a 'neutral', natural, relaxed position where they want to be. doesn't it make sense to have this occur at contact?

toly · Nov 1, 2012

Cheetah said:
If the fh employs supination/pronation/deviation using ssc and the player has time to set up and is not going i/o then yes, not laid back at contact on sw or very slightly laid back to situation or being late, jammed, timing off, not relaxed etc.

If you hit this type of fh it is obvious that the target area for the wrist at contact is neutral. most rec players don't have this type of fh and were taught to lay the wrist back so they disagree or refuse to see it or can't understand how this is possible etc. Purposely laying the wrist back is fine but that is a different type of fh. I'm talking about players that employ SSC and have that smooth looking modern atp style fh.

the wrist moves a lot with this type of fh. there's involuntary supination/deviation/extension/flexation/pronation going on as a result of the ssc action. the wrist and forearm are stretched at the beginning of the swing and 'un-stretch' during the swing in an attempt to get back to a 'neutral', natural, relaxed position where they want to be. doesn't it make sense to have this occur at contact?

Do they both have a neutral wrist? I see very big difference!!!???

5263 · Nov 1, 2012

toly said:
Do they both have a neutral wrist? I see very big difference!!!???

will both be WW Fhs?

5263 · Nov 1, 2012

Cheetah said:
I'm talking about players that employ SSC and have that smooth looking modern atp style fh.

but are you talking ww Fh?
I need "some" lay back in my wrist with my grip, to hit the WW Fh unless the contact is very high.
Maybe not a lot.
Could depend on what you consider neutral.

Cheetah · Nov 1, 2012

Fish hits with laid back wrist more often but in that pic he looks jammed or something.

That's not his normal current stroke which is more like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtmLwq0YwWI

...which is only very slightly bent back at contact. That racquet angle in that vid is because thats what a very close to neutral wrist looks like when contact is made out in front. freeze the vid right at contact. try to image there is no racquet there to make his fingers bulge under the racquet which gives a laid back appearance when there is often not. it will look like he just has his arm laid out with like trying to catch a feather in his palm.

mardy's swing is a little different than others. he usually makes contact with his torso not pointing completely at the net. like in that pic. it's a touch of an older style fh still remaining in his swing. if he makes contact while rotating, not using his arm, facing the net at contact his wrist would be less laid back.

Nadal’s low ball FH

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