The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
I may do that. In the meantime, there are some excellent reviews on Stringforum for you to check out at: http://www.stringforum.net/ratings.php?sdnr=4223&count=1
Pacific Classic 1.25 x MSV Co-Focus 1.18
- Thread starter Smasher08
- Start date
I may do that. In the meantime, there are some excellent reviews on Stringforum for you to check out at: http://www.stringforum.net/ratings.php?sdnr=4223&count=1
canny
Rookie
Well I hit today again with one of my better hitting partners. But idk I was hitting with the strings for the 3rd time and really seemed like they were finally pocketing and really biting the ball. After 4 hours the string bed felt like a god send maybe my ideal setup but I want a tad more spin. You guys think it needed to be broken in? Or was it the drop in tension? Now im not exactly sure what to string up my second set at. The yonex is also rubbing blue off on the 18g gut mains and there's some notching now plus some unraveling. I'll post pictures tomorrow of what the bed looks like after 6/7 hours.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
Smasher08
Legend
If your mains weren't prestretched, it doesn't require any break in.
If you want more spin you have to go looser. The bottem end of a racket's tension range is where this setup really seems to shine. Lower tensions will also increase your longevity too, although you may have to adapt your swing path in order to generate more spin.
Love to see what your 18g mains look like at this pont!
canny
Rookie
eight hours of play. Getting some pretty heavy notching. It's playing really nice though. Unbelievable feel, touch and superb spin.
http://i.imgur.com/lNrA4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lNrA4.jpg
Last edited:
Smasher08
Legend
Wow, I don't usually get "hairy" strings like that until around the 50 hour mark! Tough to see the notching just from that pic, but it doesn't surprise me: the notching releases natural oils that facilitate spin, so it's not surprising that you're experincing that. It may very well get ever so slightly spinnier with every hour you log on it.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it. Like you, I'm completely hooked and can't ever see myself going back!
Smasher08
Legend
Interesting that one reviewer compared it to Rip Control -- that's precisely what I compare Energetic 17 to!!
canny
Rookie
Wow, I don't usually get "hairy" strings like that until around the 50 hour mark! Tough to see the notching just from that pic, but it doesn't surprise me: the notching releases natural oils that facilitate spin, so it's not surprising that you're experincing that. It may very well get ever so slightly spinnier with every hour you log on it.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it. Like you, I'm completely hooked and can't ever see myself going back!
Yea I was thinking about cutting it out early and restringing lower tensions but considering it seems like its aging like fine wine im gonna keep using them. The fraying though seems normal for me gut wise even with a full bed. Curious though how exactly I'm gonna manage this setup for High School tennis season logging 15+ hours a week with practice and matches.
Smasher08
Legend
If you don't like how long it lasts you can always go up to 17g. You'll probably get around 30% more longevity -- at least that's how it seems between 17g and 16. You'll probably have to string down another 2 lbs or so to compensate, but you may find it worthwhile.
canny
Rookie
I have some 17g Prince beast xp which is a nice smooth poly should glide real nice over the 18g mains rather than the shaped 16g yonex poly tour spin. I think I'll string that next.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
With all due respect, you seem to be all over the place. You are changing string and tensions randomly with no system or reference point in mind. At the same time you are asking for advice on the subject and then refuting any that is given. Spend some time online and do some reading on the subject.
There are many excellent threads here on the subject as well as other sites. Research a method of testing, what result you desire, and what strings are best reviewed that might fit your budget that obtain the performance you seek. Then test them yourself and gather and compile your findings.
It does no good for you to ask for suggestions if you simply want to debate the advice given. I would read back over what SMASHER has told you here (at least four times) and start there.
Good luck.
polytheist
Rookie
Is anyone using Tough Gut 16L or 17/CoFocus 1.18? Wondering how this combo might compare to Classic/CoFocus.
canny
Rookie
Oh I'm not denying it we just had a differing in opinion on what produced spin like thousands of others and I was wrong. I said earlier, admittedly, my tensions were too high. I've done tons of research on strings. which is one of the reasons why I decided to try this setup and a poly cross. I've read countless reviews on stringfourm and know my game and how I play and what I like. I've also played with numerous polys before so have some basis to go off here. He said go up to a 17g and yonex dosent make a 17g. So ill use this prince xp which has good reviews as a cross, elasticity and when strung low should produce more spin than my last setup. Less surface area touching the mains therefore producing less friction ( more snapback ). Yonex isn't shaped very well. So it sat like a flat surface because of its size directly on the 18g notching easily plus a good amount of string movement. It played nice but I feel like a 17g smooth poly with a coating strung low will obviously be better.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
Best article on the subject I have seen is "Strings and Spin: Applying What We Know About Copoly" by Joshua Speckman.
I have posted portions of this artcile within this very thread in the past. Anyone looking to learn more about the theory and the science of string for tennis should read this article. Google it and check it out.
By popular demand (the unedited version - part 1):
Strings and Spin: Applying What We Know About Copoly
by Joshua Speckman
In the first article in this series on strings and spin, we learned that slippery strings, like copoly, generate extra spin because the main strings slide, stretch and snapback, applying an extra spin-boosting torque on the ball.
In the second article, we saw how copoly strings are actually similar to their ancestor from the 1970s, spaghetti strings. Both technologies use the same sliding and snapback mechanism to give players more spin.
But what does this mean for you? In this third article, let's go over some of the ways copoly strings are used in pro tennis, see what the applications are at other levels, then suggest a few new ground rules for equipment selection and care.
It's important to emphasize at the start that the most important factors for spin generation remain racket head speed and swing angle. To generate more spin, the most important thing to address is technique.
On some balls, pro players tilt the racket head forward a few degrees.
"If you want more spin the first thing you need to do is hit the ball harder," says tennis physicist Rod Cross. "The second thing is to hit at a steeper angle.
"The third thing is to tilt the racket head forward a little bit, and that's something that I don't think a lot of coaches know about, that if you tilt the racket you'll get more spin.
"Now the next thing you do is eat and sleep better and go to the gym more so you can hit harder. And then the fifth thing you do is change from nylon to polyester."
Despite the average player's desire for a magic bullet, copoly simply won't substitute for the other factors that go into generating more spin. But with nearly every ATP pro now using copoly strings, more and more recreational players who want to take part in the game's evolution are jumping on the copoly bandwagon.
Many professional stringers, however, steer their amateur clients clear of copoly strings because they are so stiff. This stiffness is one of the reasons why they snapback and produce spin so well, but it also makes them hard on the arm.
The copoly recipe: string loose, swing hard, and impart more spin.
One safer option with copoly (especially for young juniors who insist on using it) is to string at much lower tensions than most players have ever considered. Manufacturers routinely advise tensioning copoly 10% lower than nylon (multifilament or syngut) strings. But ATP pros often go lower than that.
"For my clientele, which is almost exclusively pro players, they can string it loose, swing hard, and impart more spin without losing control," says Nate Ferguson, the personal stringer of Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. "They string in the 40s and low 50s; really loose tension, which was unheard of ten years ago."
But in the United States, in particular, there seems to be a fondness for "crisp" stringbeds and high tensions. Perhaps this has something to do with Pete Sampras, who famously had Ferguson string his 85 square inch rackets with natural gut at 75 pounds.
The drum-tight string bed helped Pete with control, but most players don't realize that natural gut is unique among strings in that its stiffness does not increase appreciably at higher tensions. Natural gut at 75 pounds is only slightly stiffer than natural gut strung at 50 pounds.
But nylon and copoly don't share this characteristic – the tighter they are strung the stiffer they become - so dropping tension can dramatically improve comfort with these materials. An arm-killing copoly at 60 pounds will feel rather soft at 40 pounds.
In fact, a copoly like Luxilon Alu Power at 35 pounds is about as stiff, and transfers as much shock, as nylon strung at 55. But even at those tensions both materials are still stiffer than Pete's gut at 75 pounds.
Surprisingly, anecdotal reports from players suggest that copoly strung at 30, 20, even 10 pounds of tension, can, depending on the player, result in more spin, power and feel than at higher tensions, with surprisingly little loss of control.
Nate Ferguson notes that Italian pro Fillipo Volandri strings his racket with copoly strings at 26 pounds, and sometimes drops to around 19 when playing on clay. Volandri beat Federer in Hamburg several years ago playing at these super-low tensions.
"Poly has evolved," Ferguson says, "and now these guys who love the spin…they can lower the tension because the ball's not going to fly off. You're getting that cupping feeling, you're getting the feeling of more control, even though you're going looser."
The Italian player Fillipo Volandri strings with poly at 19 pounds on clay.
Another way to take advantage of the copoly spin boost, but with more comfort, feel and power is to hybrid with nylon or natural gut. Roger Federer has been using natural gut mains and Luxilon Alu Power Rough crosses since prior to hiring Nate Ferguson in 2004.
Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?
"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds.
Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball.
In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper.
Why? Lindsey and Cross speculate that natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks.
Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide.
The reason poly strings initially became popular with professional players was because of their inherent durability. Although modern copolymer strings are softer than "1st generation" polyester strings, they are still stiffer and harder than nylon or gut, and typically take longer to notch and break.
But, on the other hand, one well-known drawback of copoly strings is that they lose much more tension than gut and nylon. Consequently, advanced players often cut them out when they start losing control, saying they've "gone dead."
This is often assumed to be due to loss of resiliency. But lab tests show that strings don't really lose elasticity as they lose tension, which means that they should actually become more lively with tension loss.
The loss of depth control experienced with a well-played copoly could also be attributed to string wear resulting in impairment of the snapback mechanism. Werner Fischer, the inventor of spaghetti strings, points out that, although copoly is harder than nylon or gut, the surface of the strings can still becomes worn, roughened and notched over time, particularly if playing on clay.
Werner Fischer, the inventor of spaghetti strings, notes copoly can still becomes worn, roughened and notched over time. "Once a polyester string reaches a certain amount of playing time, the main strings lose their gliding ability, so that the mechanism does not work as well, or stops working completely," Fischer explains. "The [spin-boosting] effect works only as long as the strings are relatively new." Having lost the downward diving spin of their copoly strings when new, players may suddenly find the ball flying long.
For pros, this isn't a problem – they generally only play with new strings for several games or a set anyway - but for amateur players the premature loss of the snapback mechanism cancels out copoly's durability advantage.
As a general rule then, it would make sense for players to replace their copoly strings as soon they get stuck out of place, or begin to "move" in the parlance of players.
"The moment it goes out of line you've lost control. If the strings get stuck out wide you lose control and you lose spin as well," adds Barry Phillips-Moore, a former pro player and coach who played with spaghetti strings in the 70s and has been trying to recreate their effect ever since.
I have posted portions of this artcile within this very thread in the past. Anyone looking to learn more about the theory and the science of string for tennis should read this article. Google it and check it out.
By popular demand (the unedited version - part 1):
Strings and Spin: Applying What We Know About Copoly
by Joshua Speckman
In the first article in this series on strings and spin, we learned that slippery strings, like copoly, generate extra spin because the main strings slide, stretch and snapback, applying an extra spin-boosting torque on the ball.
In the second article, we saw how copoly strings are actually similar to their ancestor from the 1970s, spaghetti strings. Both technologies use the same sliding and snapback mechanism to give players more spin.
But what does this mean for you? In this third article, let's go over some of the ways copoly strings are used in pro tennis, see what the applications are at other levels, then suggest a few new ground rules for equipment selection and care.
It's important to emphasize at the start that the most important factors for spin generation remain racket head speed and swing angle. To generate more spin, the most important thing to address is technique.
On some balls, pro players tilt the racket head forward a few degrees.
"If you want more spin the first thing you need to do is hit the ball harder," says tennis physicist Rod Cross. "The second thing is to hit at a steeper angle.
"The third thing is to tilt the racket head forward a little bit, and that's something that I don't think a lot of coaches know about, that if you tilt the racket you'll get more spin.
"Now the next thing you do is eat and sleep better and go to the gym more so you can hit harder. And then the fifth thing you do is change from nylon to polyester."
Despite the average player's desire for a magic bullet, copoly simply won't substitute for the other factors that go into generating more spin. But with nearly every ATP pro now using copoly strings, more and more recreational players who want to take part in the game's evolution are jumping on the copoly bandwagon.
Many professional stringers, however, steer their amateur clients clear of copoly strings because they are so stiff. This stiffness is one of the reasons why they snapback and produce spin so well, but it also makes them hard on the arm.
The copoly recipe: string loose, swing hard, and impart more spin.
One safer option with copoly (especially for young juniors who insist on using it) is to string at much lower tensions than most players have ever considered. Manufacturers routinely advise tensioning copoly 10% lower than nylon (multifilament or syngut) strings. But ATP pros often go lower than that.
"For my clientele, which is almost exclusively pro players, they can string it loose, swing hard, and impart more spin without losing control," says Nate Ferguson, the personal stringer of Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. "They string in the 40s and low 50s; really loose tension, which was unheard of ten years ago."
But in the United States, in particular, there seems to be a fondness for "crisp" stringbeds and high tensions. Perhaps this has something to do with Pete Sampras, who famously had Ferguson string his 85 square inch rackets with natural gut at 75 pounds.
The drum-tight string bed helped Pete with control, but most players don't realize that natural gut is unique among strings in that its stiffness does not increase appreciably at higher tensions. Natural gut at 75 pounds is only slightly stiffer than natural gut strung at 50 pounds.
But nylon and copoly don't share this characteristic – the tighter they are strung the stiffer they become - so dropping tension can dramatically improve comfort with these materials. An arm-killing copoly at 60 pounds will feel rather soft at 40 pounds.
In fact, a copoly like Luxilon Alu Power at 35 pounds is about as stiff, and transfers as much shock, as nylon strung at 55. But even at those tensions both materials are still stiffer than Pete's gut at 75 pounds.
Surprisingly, anecdotal reports from players suggest that copoly strung at 30, 20, even 10 pounds of tension, can, depending on the player, result in more spin, power and feel than at higher tensions, with surprisingly little loss of control.
Nate Ferguson notes that Italian pro Fillipo Volandri strings his racket with copoly strings at 26 pounds, and sometimes drops to around 19 when playing on clay. Volandri beat Federer in Hamburg several years ago playing at these super-low tensions.
"Poly has evolved," Ferguson says, "and now these guys who love the spin…they can lower the tension because the ball's not going to fly off. You're getting that cupping feeling, you're getting the feeling of more control, even though you're going looser."
The Italian player Fillipo Volandri strings with poly at 19 pounds on clay.
Another way to take advantage of the copoly spin boost, but with more comfort, feel and power is to hybrid with nylon or natural gut. Roger Federer has been using natural gut mains and Luxilon Alu Power Rough crosses since prior to hiring Nate Ferguson in 2004.
Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?
"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds.
Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball.
In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper.
Why? Lindsey and Cross speculate that natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks.
Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide.
The reason poly strings initially became popular with professional players was because of their inherent durability. Although modern copolymer strings are softer than "1st generation" polyester strings, they are still stiffer and harder than nylon or gut, and typically take longer to notch and break.
But, on the other hand, one well-known drawback of copoly strings is that they lose much more tension than gut and nylon. Consequently, advanced players often cut them out when they start losing control, saying they've "gone dead."
This is often assumed to be due to loss of resiliency. But lab tests show that strings don't really lose elasticity as they lose tension, which means that they should actually become more lively with tension loss.
The loss of depth control experienced with a well-played copoly could also be attributed to string wear resulting in impairment of the snapback mechanism. Werner Fischer, the inventor of spaghetti strings, points out that, although copoly is harder than nylon or gut, the surface of the strings can still becomes worn, roughened and notched over time, particularly if playing on clay.
Werner Fischer, the inventor of spaghetti strings, notes copoly can still becomes worn, roughened and notched over time. "Once a polyester string reaches a certain amount of playing time, the main strings lose their gliding ability, so that the mechanism does not work as well, or stops working completely," Fischer explains. "The [spin-boosting] effect works only as long as the strings are relatively new." Having lost the downward diving spin of their copoly strings when new, players may suddenly find the ball flying long.
For pros, this isn't a problem – they generally only play with new strings for several games or a set anyway - but for amateur players the premature loss of the snapback mechanism cancels out copoly's durability advantage.
As a general rule then, it would make sense for players to replace their copoly strings as soon they get stuck out of place, or begin to "move" in the parlance of players.
"The moment it goes out of line you've lost control. If the strings get stuck out wide you lose control and you lose spin as well," adds Barry Phillips-Moore, a former pro player and coach who played with spaghetti strings in the 70s and has been trying to recreate their effect ever since.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
Strings and Spin: Applying What We Know About Copoly
by Joshua Speckman
Part 2
So can anything be done to keep the main strings sliding and snapping back longer?
Well, on clay courts, it might make sense to rotate rackets more frequently than normal during a match to minimize accelerated friction-wear from the dirt, and then wipe accumulated clay off the strings before playing again.
Rotating rackets more frequently may be important for copoly players.
Fischer notes that plastics like copoly will also melt and notch due to heat from friction. So in practice sessions, where a player might hit many more balls in an hour than in an entire match, it might not be a crazy idea to again rotate rackets frequently to keep the strings from over-heating.
Although it is not widely available outside of Japan, the silicone-based lubricant called Mira-fit may also prolong or revive the snapback ability of worn and notched strings. In a recent experiment, Crawford Lindsey showed that the commonly available lubricant WD-40 both revives the spin potential of notched strings and improves the spin generated by new strings as well. And it should also reduce premature wear by reducing friction and heat. These lubricants are currently legal for tournament play.
Another factor to consider is thickness, or gauge. Traditionally, thin, high-gauge strings have been favored for feel and spin. But the old explanation - that the strings allowed the ball to bite deeper into the pattern, increasing friction - doesn't square with what science is telling us about strings and spin.
But once the link was made between slippery copoly and spaghetti strings, researchers began wondering how copoly strings could be freed to move with less friction and more freedom within the constraints of a woven stringbed. "Thick strings are maybe less slippery, because thick strings, when you weave them there's a bigger angle to the weave," says Cross.
"But if they were only one micron thick there would be hardly any distortion of the strings and they would slide sideways and come straight back." At the other extreme, he says, "if they were a half-inch thick they would be really locked in together."
At present there is, however, no objective evidence that thinner strings do give more spin. Players routinely report that they do, but determining whether they are correct will have to wait for more research.
Finally, what about the great variety of shaped or textured copolys on the market – all advertised as spin strings? Well, according to tennis scientists, because the stringbed is woven, with natural peaks and valleys, all strings have sufficient friction with the ball at most impact angles to generate spin. So, theoretically, any additional friction provided by rough or pentagonal strings shouldn't make any difference.
But subjective reports consistently contradict this. At one online string playtest database, 17 of the top 20 strings rated by players for spin were shaped or textured copolys. Remember, scientists originally dismissed the existence of the poly-spin effect, despite how obvious it was to the players. So perhaps it is a mistake to discount their perceptions again.
So what's going on here? Science is always a work in progress, and this is one area where more research needs to be done.
But so far, there are two possible explanations. First, Crawford Lindsey says that increased friction between the textured strings and the ball may play a role during the snapback phase.
We know that the ball must grip the main strings in order to slide and stretch them sideways. But once the main strings reverse direction and start snapping back, they have to re-grip the ball in order to apply spin-enhancing torque. If the strings can re-grip the ball quicker they can apply spin-enhancing torque for a slightly longer period of time. So it might be during the snapback phase that textured and shaped strings have an advantage.
However, Lindsey's recent experiments showed that lubricating strings increased the spin potential, across the range of string materials. A lubricant will reduce friction between strings, but also between the ball and the strings. So whatever role string-ball friction may have in spin generation, it is almost certainly less important than having the intersections between strings as slippery as possible.
Still, there is one scenario where a player would want the highest possible string-on-ball friction. On almost all shots, theory and lab tests agree that slippery strings, and rough or textured strings, both have plenty of friction to spin the ball.
But on extremely steep swings with the racquet moving very fast – a topspin lob or the heaviest Nadal forehands being good examples - the ball can actually slip off the strings instead of biting them. In this case, a really rough string produces more spin than a really slippery one.
In any case, it's important to note that greater friction generally only makes a difference in the interaction between the ball and the main strings. This is because it is the main strings that are gripping the ball, sliding and snapping back. The role of cross strings in the snapback mechanism is to act as stiff and slippery rails for the mains to glide and slide on.
So one way to possibly have your cake and eat it too is to use a smooth and slippery cross string paired with a slippery but textured main string, something that string manufacturers have realized. Several manufacturers now offer hybrid packages containing two half-sets: a textured copoly for the mains and a smooth copoly for the crosses.
But regardless of the potential of copoly strings, the big question is still: Is this stuff for everyone? For players who hit flat, don't break strings, have tender elbows, or feel they need more pop, natural gut remains the gold standard.
And according to Cross and Lindsey's tests, gut is pretty good at generating spin too: offering about 15% more than nylon. Gut remains popular on the WTA tour, where power and spin may be more valuable than spin alone. The Williams' sisters, along with Justine Henin (up until her 2nd retirement), continue to use gut, the string favored by pros for over a hundred years.
Syngut and multifilament strings, both made of nylon, don't spin the ball as well as copoly or gut. They are softer and more arm-friendly than copoly, but less powerful than natural gut. Many of them are also pretty cheap, and perfectly adequate for most recreational players. The biggest problem with them is that they must be straightened constantly.
And if spin isn't a huge feature of your game, does poly have any use? Quite possibly. For a player with conservative grips and/or traditional mechanics, an experiment with copoly might be worth a try, as the strings will give you more spin with the same swing and effort.
Nate Ferguson says that Pete Sampras, with his relatively flat, classical strokes, switched to Babolat RPM Blast last year and is enjoying the greater "spin control" on the senior tour.
One final thing to note is that lab results will not always be consistent with our on-court perceptions. Because each different string setup will launch the ball at a slightly different angle, and with slightly more or less speed than others, its very difficult to subjectively evaluate how much spin we're getting out in the real world.
Applying lubricant to strings is an extreme example of this. We know from lab tests that lubricant will increase spin considerably. But it will also raise the launch angle quite a bit as well. Consequently, out on the court we may find the ball going long, even with all the extra topspin we're getting. To compensate, we could flatten our swing slightly to lower the launch angle, but this will reduce the spin. Alternatively, we could close the racquet face slightly at impact. This will also lower the launch angle, but increase the spin.
We can adjust to a new string setup in different ways, but unless we know exactly which adjustments we're making it's very difficult to distinguish what we're doing from what the strings are doing.
Lab research is invaluable because it reveals what is really happening. But it's also limited because the player isn't in the lab. On-court results will always be the most important dataset in tennis.
Scientific research into strings has really raised our understanding of why some strings generate more spin than others. But as always, more knowledge leads to more questions. Crawford Lindsey and Rod Cross soon plan to answer some of them by comparing the spin potential of many more strings and combinations in direct head-to-head tests.
But for the individual player, at this point there are no simple prescriptions. Level, playing style, injury—not to mention the patience and cost involved in conducting your own experiments to chose the right string or string combo—all need to be considered when choosing which strings are right for you.
But one fact is indisputable. The copoly effect is real. And the practical applications of the slippery string theory will continue to be refined and evolve as researchers, manufacturers—and players--experiment with more and more variations.
Want to Investigate More About Strings Yourself?
Crawford Lindsey, aka "The Professor", has published the most through, useful and up-to-date collection of scientific papers on strings and spin available. For those who want to learn more about the subject, or about other aspects of tennis equipment, there's no better resource.
C. Lindsey's Tennis Warehouse University
Lindsey's groundbreaking experiments on strings and spin:
"What Strings Generate the Most Spin?"
"Spin and String Pattern"
"String Friction Database"
"Spin and String Stiffness"
"String Lubrication & Movement in Spin"
by Joshua Speckman
Part 2
So can anything be done to keep the main strings sliding and snapping back longer?
Well, on clay courts, it might make sense to rotate rackets more frequently than normal during a match to minimize accelerated friction-wear from the dirt, and then wipe accumulated clay off the strings before playing again.
Rotating rackets more frequently may be important for copoly players.
Fischer notes that plastics like copoly will also melt and notch due to heat from friction. So in practice sessions, where a player might hit many more balls in an hour than in an entire match, it might not be a crazy idea to again rotate rackets frequently to keep the strings from over-heating.
Although it is not widely available outside of Japan, the silicone-based lubricant called Mira-fit may also prolong or revive the snapback ability of worn and notched strings. In a recent experiment, Crawford Lindsey showed that the commonly available lubricant WD-40 both revives the spin potential of notched strings and improves the spin generated by new strings as well. And it should also reduce premature wear by reducing friction and heat. These lubricants are currently legal for tournament play.
Another factor to consider is thickness, or gauge. Traditionally, thin, high-gauge strings have been favored for feel and spin. But the old explanation - that the strings allowed the ball to bite deeper into the pattern, increasing friction - doesn't square with what science is telling us about strings and spin.
But once the link was made between slippery copoly and spaghetti strings, researchers began wondering how copoly strings could be freed to move with less friction and more freedom within the constraints of a woven stringbed. "Thick strings are maybe less slippery, because thick strings, when you weave them there's a bigger angle to the weave," says Cross.
"But if they were only one micron thick there would be hardly any distortion of the strings and they would slide sideways and come straight back." At the other extreme, he says, "if they were a half-inch thick they would be really locked in together."
At present there is, however, no objective evidence that thinner strings do give more spin. Players routinely report that they do, but determining whether they are correct will have to wait for more research.
Finally, what about the great variety of shaped or textured copolys on the market – all advertised as spin strings? Well, according to tennis scientists, because the stringbed is woven, with natural peaks and valleys, all strings have sufficient friction with the ball at most impact angles to generate spin. So, theoretically, any additional friction provided by rough or pentagonal strings shouldn't make any difference.
But subjective reports consistently contradict this. At one online string playtest database, 17 of the top 20 strings rated by players for spin were shaped or textured copolys. Remember, scientists originally dismissed the existence of the poly-spin effect, despite how obvious it was to the players. So perhaps it is a mistake to discount their perceptions again.
So what's going on here? Science is always a work in progress, and this is one area where more research needs to be done.
But so far, there are two possible explanations. First, Crawford Lindsey says that increased friction between the textured strings and the ball may play a role during the snapback phase.
We know that the ball must grip the main strings in order to slide and stretch them sideways. But once the main strings reverse direction and start snapping back, they have to re-grip the ball in order to apply spin-enhancing torque. If the strings can re-grip the ball quicker they can apply spin-enhancing torque for a slightly longer period of time. So it might be during the snapback phase that textured and shaped strings have an advantage.
However, Lindsey's recent experiments showed that lubricating strings increased the spin potential, across the range of string materials. A lubricant will reduce friction between strings, but also between the ball and the strings. So whatever role string-ball friction may have in spin generation, it is almost certainly less important than having the intersections between strings as slippery as possible.
Still, there is one scenario where a player would want the highest possible string-on-ball friction. On almost all shots, theory and lab tests agree that slippery strings, and rough or textured strings, both have plenty of friction to spin the ball.
But on extremely steep swings with the racquet moving very fast – a topspin lob or the heaviest Nadal forehands being good examples - the ball can actually slip off the strings instead of biting them. In this case, a really rough string produces more spin than a really slippery one.
In any case, it's important to note that greater friction generally only makes a difference in the interaction between the ball and the main strings. This is because it is the main strings that are gripping the ball, sliding and snapping back. The role of cross strings in the snapback mechanism is to act as stiff and slippery rails for the mains to glide and slide on.
So one way to possibly have your cake and eat it too is to use a smooth and slippery cross string paired with a slippery but textured main string, something that string manufacturers have realized. Several manufacturers now offer hybrid packages containing two half-sets: a textured copoly for the mains and a smooth copoly for the crosses.
But regardless of the potential of copoly strings, the big question is still: Is this stuff for everyone? For players who hit flat, don't break strings, have tender elbows, or feel they need more pop, natural gut remains the gold standard.
And according to Cross and Lindsey's tests, gut is pretty good at generating spin too: offering about 15% more than nylon. Gut remains popular on the WTA tour, where power and spin may be more valuable than spin alone. The Williams' sisters, along with Justine Henin (up until her 2nd retirement), continue to use gut, the string favored by pros for over a hundred years.
Syngut and multifilament strings, both made of nylon, don't spin the ball as well as copoly or gut. They are softer and more arm-friendly than copoly, but less powerful than natural gut. Many of them are also pretty cheap, and perfectly adequate for most recreational players. The biggest problem with them is that they must be straightened constantly.
And if spin isn't a huge feature of your game, does poly have any use? Quite possibly. For a player with conservative grips and/or traditional mechanics, an experiment with copoly might be worth a try, as the strings will give you more spin with the same swing and effort.
Nate Ferguson says that Pete Sampras, with his relatively flat, classical strokes, switched to Babolat RPM Blast last year and is enjoying the greater "spin control" on the senior tour.
One final thing to note is that lab results will not always be consistent with our on-court perceptions. Because each different string setup will launch the ball at a slightly different angle, and with slightly more or less speed than others, its very difficult to subjectively evaluate how much spin we're getting out in the real world.
Applying lubricant to strings is an extreme example of this. We know from lab tests that lubricant will increase spin considerably. But it will also raise the launch angle quite a bit as well. Consequently, out on the court we may find the ball going long, even with all the extra topspin we're getting. To compensate, we could flatten our swing slightly to lower the launch angle, but this will reduce the spin. Alternatively, we could close the racquet face slightly at impact. This will also lower the launch angle, but increase the spin.
We can adjust to a new string setup in different ways, but unless we know exactly which adjustments we're making it's very difficult to distinguish what we're doing from what the strings are doing.
Lab research is invaluable because it reveals what is really happening. But it's also limited because the player isn't in the lab. On-court results will always be the most important dataset in tennis.
Scientific research into strings has really raised our understanding of why some strings generate more spin than others. But as always, more knowledge leads to more questions. Crawford Lindsey and Rod Cross soon plan to answer some of them by comparing the spin potential of many more strings and combinations in direct head-to-head tests.
But for the individual player, at this point there are no simple prescriptions. Level, playing style, injury—not to mention the patience and cost involved in conducting your own experiments to chose the right string or string combo—all need to be considered when choosing which strings are right for you.
But one fact is indisputable. The copoly effect is real. And the practical applications of the slippery string theory will continue to be refined and evolve as researchers, manufacturers—and players--experiment with more and more variations.
Want to Investigate More About Strings Yourself?
Crawford Lindsey, aka "The Professor", has published the most through, useful and up-to-date collection of scientific papers on strings and spin available. For those who want to learn more about the subject, or about other aspects of tennis equipment, there's no better resource.
C. Lindsey's Tennis Warehouse University
Lindsey's groundbreaking experiments on strings and spin:
"What Strings Generate the Most Spin?"
"Spin and String Pattern"
"String Friction Database"
"Spin and String Stiffness"
"String Lubrication & Movement in Spin"
Smasher08
Legend
Canny, despite admitting you were wrong about something, you're still coming across as argumentative and a bit of a bull*******. I don't think that's what you're intending at all, but that's why BK (who is very generous with his advice and knowledge) said what he's said. It's not tough to see his point.
For someone who's done "tons of research" (more impressive if it was tonnes) and read "countless reviews" (I can count well into the thousands before I get bored), you're making some pretty novel and, well, unorthodox choices here. Especially for an authoritative writer who's played with "numerous polys".
I'm not trying to be unfairly critical here, but can you see what I'm getting at?
For someone seeking advice (strange considering the extensive and authoritative knoweldge asserted by your choice of diction) you do seem spectacularly resistant to taking it. And, realistically, your initial choice of gauges in your mains and crosses was probably the precise opposite of what most well-researched players would select.
I do have a fair bit of experience teaching people in their teens, so I'm not too bothered. I'm also fully in favour of letting people experiment and sharing what they learn: that's what's motivated me to start threads like this and keep on going.
You're certainly welcome to contribute here: an open mind and a willingness to learn and take advice are all that is asked for. I apppreciate that you're still learning how to interact with people over 25 on these boards, so don't take this negatively, but those of us who are of a certain age (lol sorry) are pretty good at calling out anyone who we see as trying to convince others (usually badly) that they know a lot more than they really do.
So anyway, even though you're someone who "knows his game" as well as you do (suggesting that he has nothing to learn from others) you're welcome to keep on contributing here, and I'd still love to see some video of your strokes.
Last edited:
canny
Rookie
I didn't mean to come off that way at all. Im really sorry. But I have read a large number of reviews and other articles. Im still learning and just started stringing (a month) and playing (two years now) so im working with the limited knowledge I have. Which is why my initial test of the yonex and 18g because I thought theoretically it should produce more spin. Also I have played with alot of polys. I've just always strung them quite tight and crisp but as im developing my game, strokes, learning from here and more play time im logging with these hybrids that stringing at lower tensions is better for poly and my game so my initial outlook was a bit skewed. Im just a very experimental and analytic person at heart so excuse my weird choices and presumptions. But im here to learn and im certainly receptive to your advice smasher and others. As i've read quite a bit from the previous pages in this thread and others you guys know your stuff.
Anyways I plan on restringing in the next couple days. Should I just stick with the yonex at a lower tension? Move on and switch to cofocus or prince xp? Once My klip arrives I'll be able to run some more tests in my other stick.
Also that video will be coming soon. Just been a bit busy and forget to film when I play but ill try today.
Last edited:
canny
Rookie
Just strung up klip 18g gut in the mains at 54 and Prince beast xp 17g in the crosses at 50. straightened the bed and then sprayed it with silicone. Gonna let it set overnight and hit later tomorrow. Im pretty excited.
Smasher08
Legend
Awesome. I've read some posts from folks who swear by silicone spray, so I definitely want to read your review!
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
What Klip are you using? The normal Klip Legend right? I'm interested in your review as well, and mainly, I want to hear the differences between Klip Legend and Pacific Classic.
canny
Rookie
Im one of those who swear by it. Read some reviews on here about it so said why not? Got me a can and It seriously works. TWU even did a test that showed marginal spin increases. But on the court it's definitely noticeable (for me poly and gut wise). You can tell just by pushing the strings around and watching them snap back. Also considering the silicone is non-abrasive and water repealing should protect the gut longer. If I got lazy and let a poly job run longer then normal. One application and straightening followed by letting it sit for an hour or so quickly revived it. But look for that review in the next 12 hours.
Also I'm using regular Klip Legend. I was thinking about getting the armour/tour but a lot of people said it doesn't play like gut at all and the coating wears off quickly.
McLovin
Legend
I don't know if you've seen it, but I'm in the process of reviewing many of the mid-level gut choices, crossed w/ MSV Co. Focus:
I've written up on both Armour Pro & Legend Tour, and will be adding Pacific Classic, regular Legend, and Becker Hero in the coming weeks. My playtest has been temporarily suspended because I have USTA Tri-Level sectionals this weekend & don't want to tinker too much before my matches.
newyorkstadium
Professional
Canny, doesn't silicone spray ruin tennis balls by making them wet. I've also read it makes them pick up dirt.
Cheers
Cheers
canny
Rookie
I actually have read your playtest. Very helpfull actually im interested in how bbhero performs. I havent every played with any mid range guts myself besides this klip 18g. I've only played with vs. The Klip 18g seems like a better buy in my experience just as plush as the vs and more spin imo.
Actually no, I havent ever had that problem. I use dry lubricant liquid wrench silicone spray (kmart) . Which dries pretty quick and leaves very little residue. The tennis balls only get alittle fuzzier than normal thats about it. I've also played on clay after applying it 20mins before. Didn't pick up anything. I guess it depends on what type of applicator you buy. Because I've heard of reports of it being messy and making the balls dirty but not in my experience over the past couple months which includes playing with numerous types of balls on different courts.
newyorkstadium
Professional
I might give it a try in the future. Thanks
canny
Rookie
Just got done playing today. Decided to play on these new local municipality hard courts that got renovated (baddddd idea) the balls barely bounced it was weird. Have any of you encountered this before? Anyways I couldn't really gauge the performance. But holy string movement. My backhand slices were phenomenal. My forehands due to the low bounce cant really be judged. I was either bunting the ball back or kind of arming it. I'll play on my usual courts tomorrow. But so far the setup seems good.
canny
Rookie
Also I was wondering Smasher or anyone else for that matter have you had any luck with focus hex as a cross? Playing with a full bed of that stuff was my go to poly for awhile and im wondering if the new soft version (18g and thinner at 1.15) with better pocketing and tension mantience would be a better cross than the co-focus.
Last edited:
Smasher08
Legend
I once tried FH in a poly-syngut hybrid and liked it for a while, but never used it as a cross for gut mains. IIRC the only poster I've read who's done that is TimothyO who I think swore by it for a while. In theory you should get a little more spin but at the expense of your longevity because its shaping means it has edges that will act like a saw. If you're interested in.going that route you might want to get a set of heptatwist too and compare all three!
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
I tried Focus Hex as a cross in my Mamba Gut hybrid by luck. Ordered a reel Co-Focus, didn't notice they sent me Focus Hex instead until I started hitting with it.
Compared to having Co-Focus in the crosses, the Focus Hex contributed to a noticeably stiffer stringbed. I didn't like it at all coming from Co-Focus cross. And I'm pretty sure the edges ate into my gut faster.
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
Smasher08
Legend
Definitely try 16 or 16L gauge mains first. Fewer crosses in that racket should mean more movement, so you might burn through 17g mains quite quickly!
I'm using string savers and that has made a significant difference in durability.
I know have 1 racket with Classic and 1 with Tough Gut - both strung the same and both with String Savers - I'll report on differences in durability as well as playability.
I will say that at first Tough Gut was a little stiffer - but has relaxed nicely - took longer than the Classic - but plays great.
The other note is that for me I found the ToughGut MUCH easier to string... and that in itself may be the difference in durability - less kinks when I string and less overall stringing issues - though I am getting much better with the gut - just go slow and easy...
I know have 1 racket with Classic and 1 with Tough Gut - both strung the same and both with String Savers - I'll report on differences in durability as well as playability.
I will say that at first Tough Gut was a little stiffer - but has relaxed nicely - took longer than the Classic - but plays great.
The other note is that for me I found the ToughGut MUCH easier to string... and that in itself may be the difference in durability - less kinks when I string and less overall stringing issues - though I am getting much better with the gut - just go slow and easy...
canny
Rookie
Okay to followup with my play test the prince xp/klip combo at 50/54 played best right after being strung now after 10 days and a couple hours on the bed its like a trampoline. I seriously hated it. Nothing against your guy's advice but lower tensions are not for me. Especially gut wise. I restrung the same setup today at 58 gut and 54 poly. Played perfect.
Last edited:
McLovin
Legend
I will say this: For years I heard people talking about low tensions, and I was thinking "They must be crazy! It would be a trampoline for me!".
Then this past fall I got a new Alpha machine with a Wise 2086 tension head (I'd been using a drop-weight for over 20 years). I strung up at my normal tensions (58 gut mains, 56 poly crosses) and my arm nearly fell off.
As it turns out, my drop weight was off by ~ 4 lbs, and I had been stringing at 54 & 52 all along.
So, my point is: Unless we are all having the same person string all our racquets on the same machine, tension is simply a reference point. It's like me telling you your car stereo sounds best at '8' because that is what I play mine at.
McLovin
Legend
Last edited:
I concur 100%... I'm just 'tweaking' by going back and forth between Pacific Classic Gut and Tough Gut... mainly for durability issues. THough string savers and being more careful while stringing seem to be helping the Classic Gut quite a bit.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
TOTALLY agree.
This debate is as old as "Is the world round?".
Do the reading. It all makes sense.
Round polys make better crosses.
newyorkstadium
Professional
deleted...
Last edited:
newyorkstadium
Professional
So, are twisted poly's, like Kirschbaum Helix, okay? Also, what about textured poly's?
Last edited:
As these Babs are pretty demanding frames on the arm, I'm VERY tempted to now investigate Pacific Gut/MSV Co-focus in a Pure Control Team and/or Pure Control Swirly.
Anyone got any views on tensions?
Basically, I don't want a rocket launcher on my hands but I want as much added pop as I can get. That, along with the added softness and hopefully added assistance bringing out some feel, there should be great spin too... anyway, I have a suspicion this could be an awesome match up.
TIA
Anyone got any views on tensions?
Basically, I don't want a rocket launcher on my hands but I want as much added pop as I can get. That, along with the added softness and hopefully added assistance bringing out some feel, there should be great spin too... anyway, I have a suspicion this could be an awesome match up.
TIA
Smasher08
Legend
Go low. Bottom of the range-ish low. If you have a modern swing that generates topspin you'll really appreciate it.
McLovin
Legend
Assuming you're machine's #s are the same as mine (huge assumption, I know), I'd recommend somewhere in the 54-56 range for the gut and no more than 52 for the Co Focus.
I do 54 & 52 w/ my X Force Pro, take a fairly huge cut at the ball, and have no problems keeping it in length-wise. With the slightly added power of the Swirly, you may want to bump the gut up the 56.
Personally I don't like having a difference of more than 4lbs between mains & crosses, but who knows if there is any validity to my concern. It may do fine @ 56 & 50.
I do 54 & 52 w/ my X Force Pro, take a fairly huge cut at the ball, and have no problems keeping it in length-wise. With the slightly added power of the Swirly, you may want to bump the gut up the 56.
Personally I don't like having a difference of more than 4lbs between mains & crosses, but who knows if there is any validity to my concern. It may do fine @ 56 & 50.
newyorkstadium
Professional
bump......
McLovin
Legend
Of the few twisted poly's I've tried, I haven't seen any advantage to them. The only textured poly I've ever used was ALU Rough. I believe the best description of that is it's the James Dean of tennis string:
Plays great early, dies young, and leaves a beautiful looking corpse
Besides, I believe it has been proven here scientifically that smooth polys work better in a gut main hybrid due to the 'snap-back' effect.
