5263
G.O.A.T.
We can agree on that mostly. His Fh is not holding him back, but I would say
2ond serve is weak and holding his first serve back. At least last time I watched
him.
Close enough for agreement, right
Juan Martin Del Potro
- Thread starter Ash_Smith
- Start date
We can agree on that mostly. His Fh is not holding him back, but I would say
2ond serve is weak and holding his first serve back. At least last time I watched
him.
Close enough for agreement, right
All your points are good, but it's mainly because imo, once you get a Fh into the low
100's it takes a major improvement to show a mere 3-5 mph.
So Delpo could make some pretty significant changes to the better and only get 3 mph
and 300 rpms out of it. But then, that may be the difference of being 2" inside the line,
instead of 2 " outside that line on break pt.... or not.
What it comes to for me is "Aggregation of Marginal Gains" on this. To me this
is an excellent example, but for nothing, because he is not going to change
We can all hit the ball hard, but who can get it in the court with the right level of
aggression? Who can get better?
Those flatter, harder hit balls bounce differently than ones with more spin. Spin can definitely mess with your opponent, but so can the lack of it if you have that kind of pace.
As you point out though the problem is keeping it in (and over the net). Most people can't do it consistently enough without the extra topspin that modern stroke can give you. DP must be doing OK with it. Personally I need the spin. And tonight even that didn't help
?.FrisbeeFool
Rookie
Wilander's forehand has more shape to it. Delpo's is flatter. Both styles work. Wilander rarely missed and ground people down and set up points well. Del Potro can hit relatively flat laser winners at any time. Both styles work.
Wilander tends to exaggerate when making his points. This is the same Mats Wilander that said Federer has no balls, after Federer had a tough loss at the French Open. Wilander is fan of purple prose.
When Delpo first came onto the tour he had a more western grip and more "modern" looking forehand. He didn't win any majors with that forehand. He won the US open after he had switched to his flatter forehand style. He's doing fine with his style.
I like seeing variety in the game.
Can anyone post footage of his old western grip forehand. I'm not having luck finding any on youtube. Does anyone know why he changed grips, and when he did? I'm trying to think of other pros who have radically changed their form like that, and I can't really think of any.
Wilander tends to exaggerate when making his points. This is the same Mats Wilander that said Federer has no balls, after Federer had a tough loss at the French Open. Wilander is fan of purple prose.
When Delpo first came onto the tour he had a more western grip and more "modern" looking forehand. He didn't win any majors with that forehand. He won the US open after he had switched to his flatter forehand style. He's doing fine with his style.
I like seeing variety in the game.
Can anyone post footage of his old western grip forehand. I'm not having luck finding any on youtube. Does anyone know why he changed grips, and when he did? I'm trying to think of other pros who have radically changed their form like that, and I can't really think of any.
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FrisbeeFool
Rookie
Maybe I'm wrong. His grip doesn't look too extreme in that video, I can't tell if it's different at all. His finish looks a little different I guess.
FrisbeeFool
Rookie
Found a video. Here he is hitting some more "modern" forehands during his younger years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2kHq-h5Ags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2kHq-h5Ags
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
his grip looks like at least a semi western there.
on second look that could even be pretty close to western. full ptd going on there.
he's making pretty good contact too. he should have stuck with that grip.
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Ash_Smith
Legend
Some interesting analysis here, cheers everyone.
The point(s) that stand out for me are that the things people are generally picking up on (and I see this same trend all the time when talking technical analysis, with both coaches and players) are the idiosyncrasies in the swing rather than the fundamentals. JMDP has pretty near "perfect" technique in the four key areas of the swing, but the way he joins those dots is unique to him.
I'm going out on a limb to say for his unique combination of physical "talents" (I hate that word in this context, but it will do), his forehand is bang on.
Cheers
The point(s) that stand out for me are that the things people are generally picking up on (and I see this same trend all the time when talking technical analysis, with both coaches and players) are the idiosyncrasies in the swing rather than the fundamentals. JMDP has pretty near "perfect" technique in the four key areas of the swing, but the way he joins those dots is unique to him.
I'm going out on a limb to say for his unique combination of physical "talents" (I hate that word in this context, but it will do), his forehand is bang on.
Cheers
Ash_Smith
Legend
nope, nothing like that Julian, but you've referenced it quite a bit and I would have been interested to discuss some of the material with you had it been yours
Ash_Smith
Legend
Nope, no context really - maybe he was distracted by Annabel Croft's legs! That could well be the vid in question.
I'm not sure of Mats agenda (or even if he has one), but it seemed an odd comment to make about a guy who won a slam early in his career and was about to break into the elite top 4/5 group before injury. If his point had been that he felt the technique might be responsible for the injury, then that's a different issue. But he didn't!
cheers
Ash_Smith
Legend
Hmmm, don't know those guys. Next time I catch up with Claudio or Juan Esparcia I will mention it.
cheers
An E-mail?
Tennisspeed has an "option" of sending an E-mail to him via his Web site.
I have tried it but it does NOT work for me.
John Yandell knows how to get in touch with tennisspeed as well,I think
You may try this channel
regards,
Julian
nope, nothing like that Julian, but you've referenced it quite a bit and I would have been interested to discuss some of the material with you had it been yours
Tennisspeed has an "option" of sending an E-mail to him via his Web site.
I have tried it but it does NOT work for me.
John Yandell knows how to get in touch with tennisspeed as well,I think
You may try this channel
regards,
Julian
5263
G.O.A.T.
Well, you can see from my earlier post, that we agree that he hits the basic
points of a good modern Fh. Much like what you are saying above.
We also agree that it is his own style that makes it different.
On the other hand, I'm still going to say it could be better and who knows,
maybe he will adjust again since Frisbee pointed out he has already made one
adjustment in this area.
Imho, he could basically keep the same or slightly better pace,
(especially on his avg rally shot) with slightly
better margins as a payoff for the tweek. I also see this as the type of
"marginal gain" that is required to break solidly into the top 2, much like
DJ did on some of his style, even as a top 7 big hitter.
But only if it can be comfortable for him.
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FrisbeeFool
Rookie
Yeah. His swing is perfect. He has all the fundamentals. It was the injury that slowed his ascent to the top, not his technique. Unless, his technique was somehow responsible for his injury, and I don't see how it was, his technique looks flawless.
A lot of times the bigger guys are more prone to injuries. Delpo reminds me of other big guys like Joachim Johansson and Richard Krajicek. Not necessarily his game style or technique, but his build. They had a lot of injury problems, but when they were healthy, they were a threat to contend for major titles.
DavaiMarat
Professional
The main difference between Del Po's forehand is the way he leverages his shoulder.
Watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=NDq2fTESPsg
In his take back he extents his arm fully out 90 degrees from his body while most keep the elbow with the bicep along the side of the body. While most uncoil from the hip and use the arm to present the racket to the ball he does the opposite. He opens his hips but because his arm is so extended he loses angular momentum which makes he up for by swinging his 4 foot arm in a straight lever pivoting from the shoulder.
He also has a fair bit of wrist flexion as well.
You notice Del Po can hit forehands from a close stance with equal efficiency?
Think of del po's forehand as less of a swing but more of giant log hung from a chain (i.e. predator) hitting the ball.
This is what I see. Not wrong but that type of preparation will hurt you on the dead run. Not easy to balance and hard on the wrist.
Watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=NDq2fTESPsg
In his take back he extents his arm fully out 90 degrees from his body while most keep the elbow with the bicep along the side of the body. While most uncoil from the hip and use the arm to present the racket to the ball he does the opposite. He opens his hips but because his arm is so extended he loses angular momentum which makes he up for by swinging his 4 foot arm in a straight lever pivoting from the shoulder.
He also has a fair bit of wrist flexion as well.
You notice Del Po can hit forehands from a close stance with equal efficiency?
Think of del po's forehand as less of a swing but more of giant log hung from a chain (i.e. predator) hitting the ball.
This is what I see. Not wrong but that type of preparation will hurt you on the dead run. Not easy to balance and hard on the wrist.
TheCheese
Professional
With Fed/Nadal technique you get an increase in ball speed as well as velocity the faster you swing. The ratio of spin to speed depends on the swing path.
With Del Po, it's one or the other. Kind of like Roddick/Harrison forehands.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Exactly, but several on here are still locked in the traditional paradigm of the
trade off between pace vs spin.
Their trade-off is within their limits. DP's speeds are higher. That is the point. If he played like them, he would not achieve their speeds.
For a given amount of energy, more energy into rotation means less energy into translational motion. It is just basic physics. Noting comes for free. You can increase both of course by increasing the energy, if you can, till your limit.
Don't take my word for it. That is what Cliffie said (proven high-level player). I always go by what real achievers say. Many people on this forum can spin theories. Few know how it really is.
TheCheese
Professional
I totally agree that with the same racket head speed, he'd generate less velocity with that technique. What you're not taking into account is that he would be able to swing faster without losing control with the other technique because of the increase in spin and velocity simultaneously.
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arche3
Banned
And you spin endless theories?
Have you thought that nadal and federer can hit hard and with a ton of spin? Thats proven. Maybe even your boy jy proved it. That's the point. Djoko does that as well. The pace and spin equals higher percentage shots without losing pure speed through the court.
Yes it takes more energy but its the best of both world. Spin and pace, swing as hard as your able as long as your able. This is why tennis has become a fitness contest. The top guys don't really miss a lot,
TheCheese
Professional
Exactly.
It's frustrating when the TV commentators continue to spread the miconception that the faster the ball goes, the riskier the shot has to become. Also, flat ball trajectories do not necessarily mean no topspin. You can hit a flat ball trajectory with a ton of spin. Federer does it all the time, and so does Nadal from time to time.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
agreed. his current form is already great and he already hits with a lot of spin.
but for the sake of discussion i think theoretically he'd be able to swing just as hard or even harder and maintain current pace w/ different form. If delpo changed his swing not only the grip and racquet path would change but also his stance, footwork, weight transfer, amount of angular momentum, different muscles used in different ways, contact point, timing, etc etc. he might even change his racquet or frame balance and swing weight. a lot of variables. maybe he would find some of those variables actually suit his body more and is able to find some free power in one of those links in the chain. or maybe not... who knows. impossible to tell.
my vote would be that he could get more spin with the same pace that he has now.
Fed and Nadal don't hit as fast as DP.
We are not talking about higher percentage shots. We are discussing DP's style of play. Not saying if it is wrong, or if he will win or lose. People can find Nadal boring or DP boring, that is not the point either. The kind of trade-off Nad and Fed make cannot produce the kind of pace DP can produce, with the frequency that he does. And DP with his height has options for a different style of play than Fed or Nadal, and is not that much in need of creating a higher trajectory. That is what makes tennis interesting. It is not about judging who is better, but about variety and interest.
In any case, I don't think you want to understand this, so there is no point wasting time on it.
arche3
Banned
Fed and nadal can hit every bit as hard as delpo. Next.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Right, but you have to like this-
"Don't take my word for it. That is what Cliffie said
(proven high-level player). I always go by what real achievers say."
Say go with an achiever & don't listen to his word. Love Cliff as an announcer.
Great voice and part of the history. But he is from the era before all of this, and
constantly asks question that show his lack of current info and clearly didn't
achieve with any of what is discussed here. Poster doesn't seem to get that.
His own quote nullified his and Cliffie's take on it.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
Very likely if not harder, but like Sampras serving 121, Nadal and Fed realize the
sweetspot on speed vs precision on their shots. Delpo is required to take more
chances due to agility, even though he moves amazing for his height. But it is
just for his height that he moves well.
That would be wrong.
http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/8087
"Del Potro is changing the face of the modern game with his explosive flat forehand, the biggest in the sport today. It is a prodigious weapon, released with blinding speed."
http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/8087
"Del Potro is changing the face of the modern game with his explosive flat forehand, the biggest in the sport today. It is a prodigious weapon, released with blinding speed."
5263
G.O.A.T.
5263
G.O.A.T.
And who had the #1 and #2 Fhs??
Just because they don't go big as often, has little to do with what they can do.
They rank higher in every way because they make better decisions on things
just like this.
Yes, but this is not based on just couple of occurences. Fed'a average forehand speed is well documented. I cannot find reliable numbers for DP yet.
Again, please don't confuse the issue. We are not talking about better or worse in winning overall, etc. We are talking (now) specifically about speed. Please do not pretend not to understand just for the sake of arguing. It is getting tiring.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Actually no, we are talking about overall improved Fh quality.
Yes, harder was mentioned, but the heart of the OP was-
________________
"It's definitely not the technique you want in the modern game"
So this got me thinking, whilst JMDP's forehand may look a little different how
does he fare in the 4 key positions; Preparation, Drive, Impact, Extension/Finish.
__________________
You have the issues way confused.
Clearly this was more than about a max mph #.
Nice try
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arche3
Banned
Just because delpo hits harder more often doesn't mean fedal can't do the same. As mentioned its a choice players make. In fact fedal have more consistent fhs because they don't go as big as often.
If your talking avg speed delpo prob is higher. But does not mean better. In think j janko actually hits harder than delpo in terms of max mph. Looks like it at least,
arche3
Banned
I agree. Delpo can do that.
C
chico9166
Guest
yes, we are talking theoritically what is better? Which is better 100 mile and hour, or a 100 mile an hour forehand with more spin?
arche3
Banned
Yeah suresh is confused, 100mph with 2000rpm better than 100mph with 1500 rpm.
You really don't understand, or just acting that way to irritate? We are discussing if Fedal can ever hit the speeds of DP as often as he does, not if the same speed with more spin is better. There is no better when comparing more speed and less spin and less speed with more spin. We really do not want all pro players to play the same way with the same kind of stroke. The women's game has gone that way, at least the men's game is more interesting as of now. If everyone plays the same way, it is very bad for the game.
that is not necessarily true... 100mph with 5000 rpm will produce a short ball that lands a foot over the service line.
when you need penetration, you want point A to point B quickly... and point B is where it penetrates the other player.
not to mention, it takes more energy to produce 100/2000 than 100/1500.
5263
G.O.A.T.
100 mph on any reasonable line of shot is going to help you, no matter where
it touches the court, as long as it is in.
arche3
Banned
Well there is also the variable of where the shot was hit. And where. The angle. The height will determine depth as well., Basically more spin is better as it allows more options most of the time as it is a safer shot.
5263
G.O.A.T.
also at 100, the spins effect is far less than slower speeds.
arche3
Banned
I understand. Your confusing the issue. Perhaps we need some high speed video. Oh wait....
I like jersey j better anyways than delpo. And I think he hits even harder more often.
players instinctively know what shot shape make them the most money... for the tall guys, it's flat balls.... it only makes sense...
they can afford to hit flat from higher contact
and they know a flat ball has a better chance to penetrate..
runners run, hitters hit.... short guys use spin, trying to turn it to a foot speed competition.... big guys want to turn it to a hitting competition.
they can afford to hit flat from higher contact
and they know a flat ball has a better chance to penetrate..
runners run, hitters hit.... short guys use spin, trying to turn it to a foot speed competition.... big guys want to turn it to a hitting competition.
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