The best backhand ever?

zagor · Mar 2, 2013

hoodjem said:
Because Sampras won 14 slams, he must have a great BH also.

Your logic reminds me of Swiss cheese, . . .
. . . or very old havarti.

Not that great of a parallel I'm afraid.

Sampras had a much better serve, came forward much more than Fed and played in faster conditions (average length of rallies was shorter I would presume) while Fed achieved the majority of his success in what some consider one of the slowest era ever mainly from the baseline so his BH was picked upon a hell of a lot more and yet he still achieved comparable (many would say even better) success.

P.S. Aren't we constantly reminded by historians that Fed is a baseliner? You chaps seem to want to have it both ways.

geekydeveloper · Mar 2, 2013

weintraub's 1h bh is one of the best I ever saw

NatF · Mar 2, 2013

zagor said:
Not that great of a parallel I'm afraid.

Sampras had a much better serve, came forward much more than Fed and played in faster conditions (average length of rallies was shorter I would presume) while Fed achieved the majority of his success in what some consider one of the slowest era ever mainly from the baseline so his BH was picked upon a hell of a lot more and yet he still achieved comparable (many would say even better) success.

P.S. Aren't we constantly reminded by historians that Fed is a baseliner? You chaps seem to want to have it both ways.

I know you want to be objective and unbiased but Federer has definately had better success than Sampras. No two ways about it. He's ahead in nearly every category.

onehandbh · Mar 2, 2013

NatF said:
I know you want to be objective and unbiased but Federer has definately had better success than Sampras. No two ways about it. He's ahead in nearly every category.

I used to think that Guga had one of the best backhands, but I no longer
think so. It didn't hold up as well at Wimbledon, Australian and
US Open.

zagor · Mar 2, 2013

NatF said:
I know you want to be objective and unbiased but Federer has definately had better success than Sampras. No two ways about it. He's ahead in nearly every category.

Heh, that was actually written in a somewhat sarcastic tone. That said I don't think the gap between Fed and Sampras is as big as people make it out to be.

NatF · Mar 2, 2013

zagor said:
Heh, that was actually written in a somewhat sarcastic tone. That said I don't think the gap between Fed and Sampras is as big as people make it out to be.

Sampras is underrated for sure. But the gap is probably quite substantial overall. Federer is more consistant, has won more across all the surfaces and has equalled near all Sampras' records or bettered them (other than the 6 YE #1's). The gap isn't a chasm but it's too big to jump across.

hoodjem · Mar 2, 2013

zagor said:
Not that great of a parallel I'm afraid.

Sampras had a much better serve, came forward much more than Fed and played in faster conditions (average length of rallies was shorter I would presume) while Fed achieved the majority of his success in what some consider one of the slowest era ever mainly from the baseline so his BH was picked upon a hell of a lot more and yet he still achieved comparable (many would say even better) success.

P.S. Aren't we constantly reminded by historians that Fed is a baseliner? You chaps seem to want to have it both ways.

I agree with you entirely. (Fed has certainly achieved greater success than Sampras.)

My point was not that Sampras had/has a great backhand. He did not.

My point was that the logic which presumes any great record equals all great strokes is flawed.

zagor · Mar 2, 2013

hoodjem said:
I agree with you entirely. (Fed has certainly achieved greater success than Sampras.)

My point was not that Sampras had/has a great backhand. He did not.

This isn't about who achieved more between Fed and Sampras, point is they've had similar level of success but Fed's BH played much more of a key role in his success and was tested more due to the difference between playing style of two players and conditions in which they played.

To put it simple, baseline strokes are more important/crucial for a baseline player than the one who gets way more free points on serve and goes to the net far more often (and it isn't even close).

hoodjem said:
My point was that the logic which presumes any great record equals all great strokes is flawed.

I agree with that in principle but the saying "He couldn't have achieved so much without having a good/great BH" has far more merit in Fed's case than Pete's for the reasons I mentioned above.

TMF · Mar 2, 2013

hoodjem said:
I agree with you entirely. (Fed has certainly achieved greater success than Sampras.)

My point was not that Sampras had/has a great backhand. He did not.

My point was that the logic which presumes any great record equals all great strokes is flawed.

The 1 handed bh is tougher for player in this generation because they play more from the baseline. Longer rally, more tested. The slow court, high bounce favors the 2handed bh but Roger still managed to hold his ground. You got many 1 handed bh players above Federer, but they were never challenged in today's vicious environment. I'm sorry but those 1handed bh players(Lendl, Laver, Budge, etc) were to exchange bh-to-bh rally against Murray, Nadal, Novak, Agassi, Nalbandian or Del Potro in today's conditions they would lose.

hoodjem · Mar 2, 2013

TMF said:
The 1 handed bh is tougher for player in this generation because they play more from the baseline. Longer rally, more tested. The slow court, high bounce favors the 2handed bh but Roger still managed to hold his ground. You got many 1 handed bh players above Federer, but they were never challenged in today's vicious environment. I'm sorry but those 1handed bh players(Lendl, Laver, Budge, etc) were to exchange bh-to-bh rally against Murray, Nadal, Novak, Agassi, Nalbandian or Del Potro in today's conditions they would lose.

I am certainly not biased against the one-handed backhand. I love the shot, and far prefer to see players use it. I believe it is more versatile and allows greater reach.

And I use one myself.

hoodjem · Mar 2, 2013

1. Rosewall
2. Laver
3. Connors
4. Edberg
5. Borg
6. Budge
7. Agassi
8. Kuerten
9. Djokovic
10. Lacoste
11. Safin
12. Nalbandian
13. Ashe
14. Lendl
15. Vilas
16. Kovacs
17. Rios
18. Mancini
19. Mecir
20. Orantes
21. Murray
22. Tilden
23. Kodes
24. Stich
25. Wilander
26. Kafelnikov
27. Costa
28. Korda
29. Almagro
30. Gasquet
31. Becker
32. Wawrinka
33. Nüsslein
34. Haas

World Beater · Mar 2, 2013

Kuerten's bh is sooo overrated.

probably top 3-5 on clay.

but not in the top20 on grass.

its maybe top 15 on hardcourts..but that is pushing it.

Kuerten's slice also is below average.

His defense off the bh side also was sub standard.

Great offesive bh especially on clay though.

World Beater · Mar 2, 2013

edberg's bh was very good but i dont think it was substantially better than stich or becker or even federer.

TMF · Mar 2, 2013

hoodjem said:
1. Rosewall
2. Laver
3. Connors
4. Kuerten
5. Borg
6. Edberg
7. Budge
8. Agassi
9. Djokovic
10. Lacoste
11. Safin
12. Nalbandian
13. Ashe
14. Lendl
15. Vilas
16. Kovacs
17. Rios
18. Mancini
19. Mecir
20. Orantes
21. Murray
22. Tilden
23. Kodes
24. Stich
25. Wilander
26. Kafelnikov
27. Costa
28. Korda
29. Almagro
30. Gasquet
31. Becker
32. Wawrinka
33. Nüsslein

I guess you believe all of these 33 players have better bh return of serve than Roger. Even better than Hewitt's bh return too.

Flash O'Groove · Mar 3, 2013

Almagro, Gasquet and Wawrinka have all great one handed back hand, but they need to play far from the baseline to use it. That's something which have to be considered when you rank a stroke. Federer and Davydenko have in my opinion better backhand that these three, especially if we take into account that they play very close to the baseline. I admit their footwork and anticipation play a huge role in it, but still.

Look at at Davydenko-Gasquet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFf1bvBWqrM Look at it. Gasquet stand further form the baseline when he is on the offensive than Davy when he is on the defensive.

I wish he didn't had these physical issue, my dear Davydenko...

kiki · Mar 3, 2013

Edberg´s is more efficient than Kuerten´s on fast surfaces.Kuerten is, maybe, top 10-15 but never top 5.

TMF · Mar 3, 2013

Flash O'Groove said:
Almagro, Gasquet and Wawrinka have all great one handed back hand, but they need to play far from the baseline to use it. That's something which have to be considered when you rank a stroke. Federer and Davydenko have in my opinion better backhand that these three, especially if we take into account that they play very close to the baseline. I admit their footwork and anticipation play a huge role in it, but still.

Look at at Davydenko-Gasquet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFf1bvBWqrM Look at it. Gasquet stand further form the baseline when he is on the offensive than Davy when he is on the defensive.

I wish he didn't had these physical issue, my dear Davydenko...

Haas and Kohlschreiber are also great one handed.

hoodjem · Mar 3, 2013

zagor said:
Not that great of a parallel I'm afraid.

Rats! I thought the havarti reference was quite clever.

Have you ever smelled old havarti?

Feather · Mar 3, 2013

TMF said:
I guess you believe all of these 33 players have better bh return of serve than Roger. Even better than Hewitt's bh return too.

Hoodjem's only intention in bumping this thread is to convince everyone that Roger Federer doesn't figure not even in the top thirty. I don't have any problem with that, it's a democrazy and everyone has the right to say something.

Feather · Mar 3, 2013

hoodjem said:
1. Rosewall
2. Laver
3. Connors
4. Edberg
5. Borg
6. Budge
7. Agassi
8. Kuerten
9. Djokovic
10. Lacoste
11. Safin
12. Nalbandian
13. Ashe
14. Lendl
15. Vilas
16. Kovacs
17. Rios
18. Mancini
19. Mecir
20. Orantes
21. Murray
22. Tilden
23. Kodes
24. Stich
25. Wilander
26. Kafelnikov
27. Costa
28. Korda
29. Almagro
30. Gasquet
31. Becker
32. Wawrinka
33. Nüsslein
34. Haas

I was wondering how the backhand great Rosewall deal with Nadal's topspin on a clay court with a right handed backhand. Roger had problems with balls that went above shoulder height and Roger was 6.1. Rosewall is 5.7! I don't intend to say that Roger's backhand is better than Rosewall. I don't comment about things that I don't know and whenever I comment I at least try to be objective..

I am NOT remotely suggesting that players from the past sucks compared to todays greats. I believe greats are greats irrespective of eras. However on clay, after watching all those matches between Roger and Rafa, I really wonder..

These single handed right handed backhanded players never played anyone like Rafa with a crazy topspin directed to their back hand with his insane forehand. They were never tested like Roger..

kiki · Mar 3, 2013

Feather said:
I was wondering how the backhand great Rosewall deal with Nadal's topspin on a clay court with a right handed backhand. Roger had problems with balls that went above shoulder height and Roger was 6.1. Rosewall is 5.7! I don't intend to say that Roger's backhand is better than Rosewall. I don't comment about things that I don't know and whenever I comment I at least try to be objective..

I am NOT remotely suggesting that players from the past sucks compared to todays greats. I believe greats are greats irrespective of eras. However on clay, after watching all those matches between Roger and Rafa, I really wonder..

These single handed right handed backhanded players never played anyone like Rafa with a crazy topspin directed to their back hand with his insane forehand. They were never tested like Roger..

You are completely right on that but think the other way for a minute
How could Nadal and his weak kness resist the torture of that deep and extremely low bouning sliced, right handed BH?

Flash O'Groove · Mar 4, 2013

hoodjem said:
1. Rosewall
2. Laver
3. Connors
4. Edberg
5. Borg
6. Budge
7. Agassi
8. Kuerten
9. Djokovic
10. Lacoste
11. Safin
12. Nalbandian
13. Ashe
14. Lendl
15. Vilas
16. Kovacs
17. Rios
18. Mancini
19. Mecir
20. Orantes
21. Murray
22. Tilden
23. Kodes
24. Stich
25. Wilander
26. Kafelnikov
27. Costa
28. Korda
29. Almagro
30. Gasquet
31. Becker
32. Wawrinka
33. Nüsslein
34. Haas

Nobody follow me on Davydenko's backhand? I'm not sure he as one of the 30 better backhand in the history of the sport, but I'm certain that he had a better backhand than Gasquet, Almagro or Wawrinka. Those are nice looking shots but they achieved nothing with it.

BobbyOne · Mar 4, 2013

Feather said:
Hoodjem's only intention in bumping this thread is to convince everyone that Roger Federer doesn't figure not even in the top thirty. I don't have any problem with that, it's a democrazy and everyone has the right to say something.

Feather, Why do Federer fans always assume that serious posters have an agenda against Federer???

jimbo333 · Mar 4, 2013

BTURNER said:
I go for Connors. That backhand could do anything for him. Not the most beautiful shot in history, but he could hit any spin to any part of court including moderate top, flat , slice and sidespin, return serve, approach, rally on any surface, lob, and volley with both hands on the racket. other honorable mentions in the doublehanded category include Borg, Agassi, and Wilander (first one I know to develop a 1 handed slice to compliment his two hander) For one handers besides Edberg: Vilas, Sampras, Pat Cash,and Federer cannot be forgotten.

Connors for me as well in terms of best backhand ever, but I think Edberg had the best volley ever!

The best looking backhand I've seen is Henin, when she made a come back, I saw her play live for the first time; and when she started warming up, I'm guessing lots of us had never seen her play live, and there were literally gasps from the crowd at how great her backhand looked:shock:

jimbo333 · Mar 4, 2013

Flash O'Groove said:
Nobody follow me on Davydenko's backhand? I'm not sure he as one of the 30 better backhand in the history of the sport, but I'm certain that he had a better backhand than Gasquet, Almagro or Wawrinka. Those are nice looking shots but they achieved nothing with it.

I think Davydenko's backhand is amazing. Watching it live, definitely the best ball striker I've seen, he hit it so far in front of himself, it looked remarkable. In terms of a 2 hander, definitely one of the best in the last 20 years!

hoodjem · Mar 4, 2013

1. Rosewall
2. Laver
3. Connors
4. Edberg
5. Borg
6. Budge
7. Agassi
8. Kuerten
9. Djokovic
10. Lacoste
11. Safin
12. Nalbandian
13. Ashe
14. Lendl
15. Vilas
16. Kovacs
17. Rios
18. Mancini
19. Mecir
20. Orantes
21. Murray
22. Tilden
23. Kodes
24. Stich
25. Wilander
26. Kafelnikov
27. Costa
28. Korda
29. Davydenko
30. Almagro
31. Gasquet
32. Becker
33. Wawrinka
34. Nüsslein
35. Haas

jimbo333 · Mar 4, 2013

^^^ A great list now, good to see you've agreed and added Davydenko!

TMF · Mar 4, 2013

BobbyOne said:
Feather, Why do Federer fans always assume that serious posters have an agenda against Federer???

Easy answer...just read your posts and kiki.

abmk · Mar 4, 2013

BobbyOne said:
Feather, Why do Federer fans always assume that serious posters have an agenda against Federer???

Here's a tip .......federer fans don't assume so ...its when they have an agenda against federer , we state it .....

Here are some "serious" posters (who post frequently in this forum ) , who do not have an agenda vs federer :

krosero
Moose Malloy
timnz
NonP
BTURNER
Gizo

etc etc ...

President · Mar 4, 2013

Andre Agassi should be #1 on this list.

kiki · Mar 4, 2013

Maybe I disagree with the order of a few names, but the list of Hoodjem is very good.he is great at that, no doubt.

hoodjem · Mar 4, 2013

1. Rosewall
2. Laver
3. Connors
4. Edberg
5. Agassi
6. Budge
7. Borg
8. Kuerten
9. Djokovic
10. Lacoste
11. Safin
12. Nalbandian
13. Ashe
14. Lendl
15. Vilas
16. Kovacs
17. Rios
18. Mancini
19. Mecir
20. Orantes
21. Murray
22. Tilden
23. Kodes
24. Stich
25. Wilander
26. Kafelnikov
27. Costa
28. Korda
29. Davydenko
30. Federer
31. Almagro
32. Gasquet
33. Becker
34. Wawrinka
35. Nüsslein
36. Haas

dennis10is · Mar 4, 2013

Every pro that I've seen live have great shots to me. only a small portion have something idiosyncratic but they accomdate that into their strokes.

Feather · Mar 4, 2013

kiki said:
Maybe I disagree with the order of a few names, but the list of Hoodjem is very good.he is great at that, no doubt.

Of course you have every right to vouch for the authenticity and credibility of the list but what is really pathetic is his timing to bump the thread. There goes a discussion in another thread where Bobbyone engages in a discussion with few Roger Federer fans about weaknesses in Roger's backhand and Hoodjem bumps the thread and promptly delete Roger's name which was there in his early list. I realize that there are old people who have all the years of experience and life behind them but still act as clueless immature crybabies or kids.

Anyway, I can expect a lot of strawman arguments coming my way. Roger fans want Roger's name to be there in the GOAT list of everything. Roger fans are too touchy that they react to mere mentioning of his name from a random list generated by few anonymous posters.

However there is some parallel between the so called historians and the immature kiddish fans of Roger Federer. They place Rod Laver in every goddamn list in either first or second as if by a ritual and since we kids haven't seen Tennis those days or don't have any access to the video links of those times, it makes your job pretty easy since you can also use the trump card of age. The bottomline is we may be young compared to you guys, but we are not dumb and have little intelligence to see through the blatant bias

Feather · Mar 4, 2013

President said:
Andre Agassi should be #1 on this list.

Oh no don't let the collective wrath of historians fall on you!

Andre Agassi is a mug compared to the 5.7 mighty Ken Rosewall whose back hand slice alone was 80 mph! Andre Agassi got his slams by serve and volleying in his service games as well as in his opponents service games. He never used his backhand in his career.

kiki · Mar 5, 2013

Feather said:
Oh no don't let the collective wrath of historians fall on you!

Andre Agassi is a mug compared to the 5.7 mighty Ken Rosewall whose back hand slice alone was 80 mph! Andre Agassi got his slams by serve and volleying in his but mot such service games as well as in his opponents service games. He never used his backhand in his career.

Calm down it is hard to pick the best when it gets to top five so I see no bias
AA certainly has a top tier BH so it may be a pubic hair what separateshim from Edberg, Budge, Laver, Rosewall or Edberg and all merit top tier
At that level it becomes subjective
What is not is Fed having all time great Bh, he has a great Fh that deserves top tier but not top backhand at all
I talk from what I saw live and Laver, Rosewall and Comnors are the very best I have seen qith Edberg and AA very close
Maybe Budge, Lacoste and Kovacs were just as good

Flash O'Groove · Mar 5, 2013

kiki said:
Calm down it is hard to pick the best when it gets to top five so I see no bias
AA certainly has a top tier BH so it may be a pubic hair what separateshim from Edberg, Budge, Laver, Rosewall or Edberg and all merit top tier
At that level it becomes subjective
What is not is Fed having all time great Bh, he has a great Fh that deserves top tier but not top backhand at all
I talk from what I saw live and Laver, Rosewall and Comnors are the very best I have seen qith Edberg and AA very close
Maybe Budge, Lacoste and Kovacs were just as good

I agree with you. Fed's backhand is not in the top 10. But not in the top 30? Wawrinka? Almagro? Ok their backhand play a more important role in their games, but still, you can't compare players who need to be far from the baseline to be comfortable with someone who stick to it!

jimbo333 · Mar 5, 2013

Flash O'Groove said:
I agree with you. Fed's backhand is not in the top 10. But not in the top 30? Wawrinka? Almagro? Ok their backhand play a more important role in their games, but still, you can't compare players who need to be far from the baseline to be comfortable with someone who stick to it!

I didn't spot that Federer wasn't on that list. I would put Federer's backhand at about 25th on that list above.

World Beater · Mar 5, 2013

Flash O'Groove said:
I agree with you. Fed's backhand is not in the top 10. But not in the top 30? Wawrinka? Almagro? Ok their backhand play a more important role in their games, but still, you can't compare players who need to be far from the baseline to be comfortable with someone who stick to it!

if we go by surface. this is what i would say...

Grass: federer has a top 10 bh.
HC: Fed has a top 20 bh
Clay: Fed has a top 25 bh.

On AVG. I would say Fed would figure TOP 20.

kiki · Mar 5, 2013

TMF said:
Easy answer...just read your posts and kiki.

I have melted in admiration for Federer.I think you just don´t pay enough attention to my posts.

kiki · Mar 5, 2013

How nice Kodes is in an all time great list¡¡¡

hoodjem · Mar 5, 2013

Feather said:
I was wondering how the backhand great Rosewall deal with Nadal's topspin on a clay court with a right handed backhand. Roger had problems with balls that went above shoulder height and Roger was 6.1. Rosewall is 5.7! I don't intend to say that Roger's backhand is better than Rosewall. I don't comment about things that I don't know and whenever I comment I at least try to be objective..

I am NOT remotely suggesting that players from the past sucks compared to todays greats. I believe greats are greats irrespective of eras. However on clay, after watching all those matches between Roger and Rafa, I really wonder..

These single handed right handed backhanded players never played anyone like Rafa with a crazy topspin directed to their back hand with his insane forehand. They were never tested like Roger..

Good question.

Would they back up or take it on the rise? (I think Connors always took Borg's big topspinners on the rise.)

Hoad used alot of topspin; so did Laver, Tom Okker, and Vilas. What did Muscles do with those?

kiki · Mar 5, 2013

slice them back to the angle and come in to hit a mid court amazing half volley waiting for an amazing short, overrolled, top spin passing shot, and anticipating it, stepping one foot forwards so to lean on the right foot and kncok out a deep FH volley that Hoad lob´s deep into the baseline but Ken intercepts that with a small leap and places an angled and sliced smash to the middle of the right court.Point and set Mr Rosewall.

BobbyOne · Mar 5, 2013

kiki said:
slice them back to the angle and come in to hit a mid court amazing half volley waiting for an amazing short, overrolled, top spin passing shot, and anticipating it, stepping one foot forwards so to lean on the right foot and kncok out a deep FH volley that Hoad lob´s deep into the baseline but Ken intercepts that with a small leap and places an angled and sliced smash to the middle of the right court.Point and set Mr Rosewall.

Yes, old Rosewall had already to deal with top spin shots (Hoad, Laver, Okker, Borg, Vilas). He fared rather well against them.

kiki · Mar 5, 2013

His BH return off a big booming serve laid at the oncoming´s volleyer feet.he did it mechanichally, like it was the easiest thing to do.I haven´t seen anybody do that in that way, except Laver and Mac when Mac was just playing out of his mind..and Nastase, too.

forzamilan90 · Mar 5, 2013

How do we decide on the best double vs best single backhand ever as the best overall backhand? Or do we must keep them in their respective niches? Best forehand is much easier to decide.

hoodjem · Mar 5, 2013

forzamilan90 said:
How do we decide on the best double vs best single backhand ever as the best overall backhand? Or do we must keep them in their respective niches?

Best forehand is much easier to decide.

You're right. It's easy!

Pancho Segura's forehand was two-handed.:wink:

forzamilan90 · Mar 5, 2013

hoodjem said:
You're right.

Easy: Pancho Segura's forehand was two-handed.:wink:

how many double handed great forehands are there?

hoodjem · Mar 5, 2013

BobbyOne said:
Yes, old Rosewall had already to deal with top spin shots (Hoad, Laver, Okker, Borg, Vilas). He fared rather well against them.

In late December 1976 Rosewall beat Vilas 6-2, 6-2, 6-0 in Melbourne.

1977 was probably Vilas's best year.

hoodjem · Mar 5, 2013

forzamilan90 said:
how many double handed great forehands are there?

Great?

Not many at all.

The best backhand ever?

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