What rating would you give this guy?

andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
This is my practice partner, Henry. The guy is the most natural tennis player Ive ever met. He honestly doesn't even try against most people.

We're down here in Brazil so he's unable to enter USTA tournaments to figure out his rating. Any idea based on the points in the video?

http://youtu.be/hPcrO0S6QOY
 
D

DefensiveTennis

Guest
I think I could beat him playing with a continetal grip for the whole game. He is an ok player. 4.0 I think.
 
J

JohnMartin

Banned
the opponents in the video are all around 3.5-4.0..... I guess Henry does look invincible :)

great movement, balance.... good hands.

Henry is at least a 4.5 but hard to tell beyond that due to lack of evidence.
 
tyu1314

tyu1314

Semi-Pro
The video is edited so its hard to tell, did you guys only played those few points? or it is two whole matches and you only show 10points or so. I think he is 4.0-4.5.
 
Moz

Moz

Hall of Fame
His game looks pretty ugly and unnatural to me. I'd be surprised if he could hang with a strong 4.5.
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
Most of the time the tennis ratings on this site are too harsh - but i got to agree looks like a 4.0 maybe a 4.5. You can't really tell because likely he is holding back compared to the OP.

Remember 4.0 is actually a good player. Most players are not 4.0. So 4.0s can beat most players at a club - even the younger healthier ones. 4.5 is one of your local clubs best players..

And a 5.0 is good enough to be a young healthy teaching pro..
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
Middle of the road 4.0. He is not a 4.5. Not even close. If this guy entered a USTA tourney at 4.5, he'd get destroyed in the first round.

He's highly unorthodox, but I can see he has issues controlling the ball. OP, you make him look better than he actually is on video.
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
I respect your opinions--hence the reason I made the thread--but I feel I failed in showing enough of his game for you guys to properly evaluate.
 
PrinceMoron

PrinceMoron

Legend
Be interesting to see how some proper technique would help his game. Guess it would be two steps back one step forward.
 
A

Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
It's hard to judge playing levels by just rallying without actually playing points. I know myself when I just rally, my game is very different from when I play for points. When rallying, I try to work on my weaknesses, and focus on staying loose and comfortable. Playing for points, I play to my strengths and work harder on court.

But anyway, I like your hiting on this last video, especially your backhand, you're standing tall and hitting through the ball well. Henry is a bit too loopy for my liking, I think to go to the next level he needs to be hitting a bit flatter: take the ball on the top of the bounce, rather than allowing it to drop.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
with his strokes he could be a 4.5 but he is sometimes late at the ball and makes quite easy errors or weak shots. with a little more practice he could easily become a competitive 4.5.

the sound of his contact is really cool, that rasping noise of a heavy ball.

but your BH is not bad either:).
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
Attila_the_gorilla said:
It's hard to judge playing levels by just rallying without actually playing points. I know myself when I just rally, my game is very different from when I play for points. When rallying, I try to work on my weaknesses, and focus on staying loose and comfortable. Playing for points, I play to my strengths and work harder on court.

But anyway, I like your hiting on this last video, especially your backhand, you're standing tall and hitting through the ball well. Henry is a bit too loopy for my liking, I think to go to the next level he needs to be hitting a bit flatter: take the ball on the top of the bounce, rather than allowing it to drop.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the positive feedback! If only my forehand would come along! lol :)
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
dominikk1985 said:
with his strokes he could be a 4.5 but he is sometimes late at the ball and makes quite easy errors or weak shots. with a little more practice he could easily become a competitive 4.5.

the sound of his contact is really cool, that rasping noise of a heavy ball.

but your BH is not bad either:).
Click to expand...

The reason I put "winner" in the video clips (when he hits a winner) is because we all tease him about his laziness. He hits winners without trying, it often seems. He watches himself on video and cant believe how lazily he plays, and I think that's the reason he is late on some of the shots. He plays like he's half asleep, yet he beats everyone, usually 6-1, 6-2, even against a former 5.5 player (who is admittedly out of shape now).
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
dominikk1985 said:
with his strokes he could be a 4.5 but he is sometimes late at the ball and makes quite easy errors or weak shots. with a little more practice he could easily become a competitive 4.5.

the sound of his contact is really cool, that rasping noise of a heavy ball.

but your BH is not bad either:).
Click to expand...

and thanks for the compliment! :)
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
andrehanderson said:
The reason I put "winner" in the video clips (when he hits a winner) is because we all tease him about his laziness. He hits winners without trying, it often seems. He watches himself on video and cant believe how lazily he plays, and I think that's the reason he is late on some of the shots. He plays like he's half asleep, yet he beats everyone, usually 6-1, 6-2, even against a former 5.5 player (who is admittedly out of shape now).
Click to expand...

He's a 4.0. I watched all those videos. Still a 4.0. Don't care if he beat an ex 5.5 (which is top-level division 1, BTW) player. In those videos, his technique and ability is 4.0.

But as always, I encourage club or non-sanctioned league players who are curious about their rating to enter a USTA tournament at the level they think they are at. By all means, he should enter an NTRP 4.5 men's tourney if he thinks he's good enough based on his club experience.

However, as is usual, I expect he'll have a rude awakening as do most folks who have success at the club level.
 
movdqa

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I think 4.5 but his opponents are so weak that they don't put him under any real stress.

The second and third videos dropped my opinion a little - I take it that you give him a harder time than the guys on the first video. He plays with a relatively casual attitude but that may be due to his normally beating everyone that he plays. Also, if he isn't playing anyone that's giving him a challenge, then how does he get better? So I'm thinking something under 4.5 but I can't say how much.
 
Last edited:
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
andrehanderson said:
Can you guys show me a video in which a 4.0 hits as well as he does?

Not disagreeing, I just haven't seen it.
Click to expand...

I don't have a 4.0 video on hand that I can think of (although I'm sure they are out there). Keep in mind that it isn't the look of the stroke that is important. At 4.0 and 4.5, it is consistency and variety.

Here's a video of two Texas 4.5s going at it. I've personally played one of these guys (and gotten destroyed -- I'm a 4.0). I do not see your friend winning at 3-set match against either of these guys. I highly doubt he even takes a single set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhxr72xAKDE
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
mightyrick said:
I don't have a 4.0 video on hand that I can think of (although I'm sure they are out there). Keep in mind that it isn't the look of the stroke that is important. At 4.0 and 4.5, it is consistency and variety.

Here's a video of two Texas 4.5s going at it. I've personally played one of these guys (and gotten destroyed -- I'm a 4.0). I do not see your friend winning at 3-set match against either of these guys. I highly doubt he even takes a single set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhxr72xAKDE
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that. I think he would be very competitive with these guys. I have no idea if he'd win a set or the whole match...he is really much, much better than the videos show, I guess...I play against him every day and have seen him against all levels of player so I guess I see even the videos differently.
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
MarinaHighTennis said:
Your friend needs a better serve for 4.5. He doesn't even have any kick so anyone can easily cap off the serves
Click to expand...

I'll shoot some video of his real serve. It's hard to catch because he is too lazy to serve in a serious manner most of the time. He only pulls out the big serve when he feels threatened by the opponent.

I know it seems like Im making him out to be the next big thing, but that would never be the case and 4.5 is probably right where he should be. I was just wondering how much of his ability was apparent from the videos I posted--I guess not much.
 
MarinaHighTennis

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
Seems solid 4.5 to me, like a guy who can win 4.5 tourneys bc of his groundies. But no more than that bc of that footwork and no true penetration of his groundies. Matt Lin is 5.0ish methinks
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
The way he is hitting in the videos, I'd say he is playing at a 4.0 level. It is tough to play at a significantly higher level than the guys you are playing often, though. If he played some against solid 4.5's there's a good chance would up his level of play after a few weeks. He's have to tighten up his game, make less errors, move better and get used to hitting harder and less in the center of the court.
 
B

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
According to OP he has a knack for winning matches. His strokes look like 4.0 but his match skill could allow beating some 4.5. I'd put him as a solid 4.5 if that's the case. In the past I've seen a middling D1 #1 who hit like 4.0-4.5 but he routinely beat 5.0 players making him at the top of the 5.0 level. Sometimes, prettiness of the technique doesn't tell the whole story.
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
The big issue I have with these threads is that a lot of the people asking don't understand how competitive the USTA is (or truly competitive ITF for that matter).

The USTA is filled with not only with sluggish hacks at the lower levels, but tons of ex young-and-old college D1 top ranked guys. People who pay (or have paid) thousands of dollars in professional coaching fees. People who take their tennis and their advancement very seriously. At the 4.0+ levels, the USTA is also full of really good "falling" sandbaggers. Older guys who are unbelievably strong 4.0s... but used to be high 5.0s. The 4.0+ ranks are filled with these kinds of players in strong regions.

Here's a hint to people who ask for a true USTA NTRP rating. If someone says you are a 4.0, don't b!tch about it. You are being paid a compliment. In the USTA, the guys who win 4.0 tourneys and sectionals are VERY GOOD. Guys who win 4.5 USTA tourneys are usually teaching pros or are actual college and/or reputable high-school coaches... or usually ex-top college players themselves.

You guys who have decent game need to stop feeling offended if people don't jump out and call you a tournament/match-hardened USTA NTRP 4.5 after posting a video of middle-of-the-road loopy topspin strokes in a playful hitting session. It's ridiculous.

If you want an accurate rating, enter a tournament. If you don't have access to one, then at least post a real match play video so people can see what a player looks like under match conditions.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
andrehanderson said:
This is my practice partner, Henry. The guy is the most natural tennis player Ive ever met. He honestly doesn't even try against most people.

We're down here in Brazil so he's unable to enter USTA tournaments to figure out his rating. Any idea based on the points in the video?

http://youtu.be/hPcrO0S6QOY
Click to expand...
Hey Andreh. As usual I would not want to make a guess about how your friend Henry might do in NTRP-based rated matchplay. I will say nice work on the videos. Nice quality and perspective. I always enjoy watching your vids. I'm working on getting mine up to the same quality. Will be getting a wide angle camera asap so that I can get the corners of the near court. Also am saving up for one of those fence mount things.

Anyway, my honest opinion from what I watched (all the "Henry" vids so far I think) is that you should be able to beat him. But if he beats you regularly as easy as you say, then it just goes to show that you can't tell much from a few minutes of video of casual hitting.

For example, I played a legit, solid 4.5 the other day. If you were to see snippets of me and him just hitting around before and after the match, you might guess my rating at a bit higher than 3.0 (hitting with good players tends to bring out the best in me and make me look better than I actually play) and I'm sure you'd guess his rating at a bit lower than 4.5. By the way, yes, he won 6-0 6-0. But it was fun for both of us I think. I think he made 1 or 2 unforced errors the entire match. If you were to see this guy practice rallying it's not readily apparent that his strokes are any better than yours or Henry's, or mine even (well, ok that's stretching it a bit, but you know what I mean :) ). What he does, with anticipation, quickness, movement, great court sense, etc. is that he continually puts himself into position to hit relatively easy shots. Which he almost never misses. :)

Anyway, thanks for the vids. Keep practicing, as I will. :)
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
mightyrick said:
The big issue I have with these threads is that a lot of the people asking don't understand how competitive the USTA is (or truly competitive ITF for that matter).

The USTA is filled with not only with sluggish hacks at the lower levels, but tons of ex young-and-old college D1 top ranked guys. People who pay (or have paid) thousands of dollars in professional coaching fees. People who take their tennis and their advancement very seriously. At the 4.0+ levels, the USTA is also full of really good "falling" sandbaggers. Older guys who are unbelievably strong 4.0s... but used to be high 5.0s. The 4.0+ ranks are filled with these kinds of players in strong regions.

Here's a hint to people who ask for a true USTA NTRP rating. If someone says you are a 4.0, don't b!tch about it. You are being paid a compliment. In the USTA, the guys who win 4.0 tourneys and sectionals are VERY GOOD. Guys who win 4.5 USTA tourneys are usually teaching pros or are actual college and/or reputable high-school coaches... or usually ex-top college players themselves.

You guys who have decent game need to stop feeling offended if people don't jump out and call you a tournament/match-hardened USTA NTRP 4.5 after posting a video of middle-of-the-road loopy topspin strokes in a playful hitting session. It's ridiculous.

If you want an accurate rating, enter a tournament. If you don't have access to one, then at least post a real match play video so people can see what a player looks like under match conditions.
Click to expand...
Or better yet, if you're not in the US, then don't bother with NTRP ratings in the first place. NTRP is useful ONLY in the context of slotting people in the US for playing in USTA leagues and (to a lesser extent) tournaments. I don't get the obsession with it for people to whom it doesn't and will never matter in the slightest.
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
mightyrick said:
The big issue I have with these threads is that a lot of the people asking don't understand how competitive the USTA is (or truly competitive ITF for that matter).

The USTA is filled with not only with sluggish hacks at the lower levels, but tons of ex young-and-old college D1 top ranked guys. People who pay (or have paid) thousands of dollars in professional coaching fees. People who take their tennis and their advancement very seriously. At the 4.0+ levels, the USTA is also full of really good "falling" sandbaggers. Older guys who are unbelievably strong 4.0s... but used to be high 5.0s. The 4.0+ ranks are filled with these kinds of players in strong regions.

Here's a hint to people who ask for a true USTA NTRP rating. If someone says you are a 4.0, don't b!tch about it. You are being paid a compliment. In the USTA, the guys who win 4.0 tourneys and sectionals are VERY GOOD. Guys who win 4.5 USTA tourneys are usually teaching pros or are actual college and/or reputable high-school coaches... or usually ex-top college players themselves.

You guys who have decent game need to stop feeling offended if people don't jump out and call you a tournament/match-hardened USTA NTRP 4.5 after posting a video of middle-of-the-road loopy topspin strokes in a playful hitting session. It's ridiculous.

If you want an accurate rating, enter a tournament. If you don't have access to one, then at least post a real match play video so people can see what a player looks like under match conditions.
Click to expand...

You make a valid point and I apologize for coming across as offended (for my friend). He isn't even aware of the rating system and doesn't know I've made this thread. He plays for fun and really couldn't care less about measuring his level against his peers in the U.S.

Here in Brazil they have classes, with first being the highest. Locally, here in Brasilia, he enters tournaments in the first class and has won all of his matches except for one he lost in the finals of a pretty big tournament. But Brasilia is a relatively small tennis city compared to Sao Paulo and Rio so it's hard for me to gauge his overall ability--hence the thread.

As for me, I will admit that I am a bit overzealous about knowing where I stand in the ratings. It's the only way I can stay motivated in anything. I did Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 12 years before I reached my goal of black belt, and then it started to lose interest for me. I still trained, but not with the same intensity.

I played very serious tennis throughout junior high and high school but then quit for 20 years. Part of my motivation in returning is to see how much I can improve--the rating system seems like an imperfect way to do so, but I'm not left with too many other ways of measuring since tournaments are rare here and I generally play with the same 4 or 5 people. Henry is my most steady training partner and he always crushes me.

Thanks!
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
TomT said:
Hey Andreh. As usual I would not want to make a guess about how your friend Henry might do in NTRP-based rated matchplay. I will say nice work on the videos. Nice quality and perspective. I always enjoy watching your vids. I'm working on getting mine up to the same quality. Will be getting a wide angle camera asap so that I can get the corners of the near court. Also am saving up for one of those fence mount things.

Anyway, my honest opinion from what I watched (all the "Henry" vids so far I think) is that you should be able to beat him. But if he beats you regularly as easy as you say, then it just goes to show that you can't tell much from a few minutes of video of casual hitting.

For example, I played a legit, solid 4.5 the other day. If you were to see snippets of me and him just hitting around before and after the match, you might guess my rating at a bit higher than 3.0 (hitting with good players tends to bring out the best in me and make me look better than I actually play) and I'm sure you'd guess his rating at a bit lower than 4.5. By the way, yes, he won 6-0 6-0. But it was fun for both of us I think. I think he made 1 or 2 unforced errors the entire match. If you were to see this guy practice rallying it's not readily apparent that his strokes are any better than yours or Henry's, or mine even (well, ok that's stretching it a bit, but you know what I mean :) ). What he does, with anticipation, quickness, movement, great court sense, etc. is that he continually puts himself into position to hit relatively easy shots. Which he almost never misses. :)

Anyway, thanks for the vids. Keep practicing, as I will. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Tom!

I highly recommend the bloggie by Sony. In some of my videos Im unable to capture the whole court because of the proximity of the rear fence, but I can usually get a good 1080p picture of the whole court with the bloggie. It's also super easy to use for uploading to imovie, final cut or direct to youtube.

Thanks again for the great advice! Henry hits much loopier strokes than you and I do, but I agree that the difference in his ability is his anticipation, quickness, movement, etc... He's like that in everything...it's annoying but only because Im so jealous!

Here he is crushing me in squash (which I just started playing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyOvN7yRzbU
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
andrehanderson said:
I played very serious tennis throughout junior high and high school but then quit for 20 years. Part of my motivation in returning is to see how much I can improve--the rating system seems like an imperfect way to do so, but I'm not left with too many other ways of measuring since tournaments are rare here and I generally play with the same 4 or 5 people. Henry is my most steady training partner and he always crushes me.
Click to expand...

No worries, man. I totally understand the desire to measure yourself against others. Especially if you are in an area where you don't really have access to a lot of varied players.

I think it might be a fun trip for you and your friend if you did enter a non-local tournament in either Rio or Sao Paulo. Make it a little mini-vacation. They can be very fun and you end up playing a lot of different people. Most tournaments also have a "consolation bracket". So that if you lose a match, you will at least get to play another match. Some tournaments are "round-robin" where you will get to play even more matches.

The important thing is that you enjoy tennis and are staying healthy.
 
andrehanderson

andrehanderson

Professional
mightyrick said:
No worries, man. I totally understand the desire to measure yourself against others. Especially if you are in an area where you don't really have access to a lot of varied players.

I think it might be a fun trip for you and your friend if you did enter a non-local tournament in either Rio or Sao Paulo. Make it a little mini-vacation. They can be very fun and you end up playing a lot of different people. Most tournaments also have a "consolation bracket". So that if you lose a match, you will at least get to play another match. Some tournaments are "round-robin" where you will get to play even more matches.

The important thing is that you enjoy tennis and are staying healthy.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mightyrick. I really like your idea about the mini-vacation. Im from L.A. and often travel back there to visit friends and family, so maybe Henry will come along and we'll be able to enter a USTA tourney to see how we do. I'll enter 3.5 and he'll enter 4.0, I guess...what would you recommend?

Thanks again!
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
4-5.
He's just goofing around, hitting slow balls until he decides he want's to hit a real forehand.
And why are you feeding him forehands, when that's his best strength?
So, YOU must be a 3.5, and forgot to pound the backhand.
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
andrehanderson said:
Thanks, Mightyrick. I really like your idea about the mini-vacation. Im from L.A. and often travel back there to visit friends and family, so maybe Henry will come along and we'll be able to enter a USTA tourney to see how we do. I'll enter 3.5 and he'll enter 4.0, I guess...what would you recommend?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

I think that sounds good. If you are going to enter a USTA tourney in the West US Region, then your friend definitely wants to enter at 4.0. Not 4.5. The 4.5s in California are ridiculously good. Here in Texas, they are also ridiculously good but nowhere near as good as in Cali. 3.5 would be just fine for you, as well. In all regions, 3.5 has a huge variety of players.

Another thing that sounds interesting to me is that the USTA is going to start doing one-day short set tournaments. I can't wait to try one. I get really tired of three-day (Friday through Sunday) tournament formats. They take way too much time.

I'm in a tournament this coming weekend. 3 day weekend format. My first match is at like 6:30pm on Friday and then I have to turn around and play another match at 8:00am on Saturday morning. If I win either one of those, I'll probably end up playing three matches on Saturday. If I make it into Sunday, I'll have to play potentially two matches on Sunday.

It's just too brutal of a tournament format for working people. I understand young kids doing it in Champs and SuperChamps... but I am dead for a week after a tournament.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
andrehanderson said:
Thanks Tom!

I highly recommend the bloggie by Sony. In some of my videos Im unable to capture the whole court because of the proximity of the rear fence, but I can usually get a good 1080p picture of the whole court with the bloggie. It's also super easy to use for uploading to imovie, final cut or direct to youtube.

Thanks again for the great advice! Henry hits much loopier strokes than you and I do, but I agree that the difference in his ability is his anticipation, quickness, movement, etc... He's like that in everything...it's annoying but only because Im so jealous!

Here he is crushing me in squash (which I just started playing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyOvN7yRzbU
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info Andreh. Very nice squash video. Both you guys look like you're pretty good players to me, though I don't really know squash very well.

Incidentally, a squash player recently bought one of my old tennis racquets. He said he uses them to practice against the wall with cause he breaks a lot of squash racquets ... or something like that. :)
 
D

DefensiveTennis

Guest
TomT said:
Thanks for the info Andreh. Very nice squash video. Both you guys look like you're pretty good players to me, though I don't really know squash very well.

Incidentally, a squash player recently bought one of my old tennis racquets. He said he uses them to practice against the wall with cause he breaks a lot of squash racquets ... or something like that. :)
Click to expand...

Did you make 3.5 yet? Do you think you have improved much in a year?
 
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