Captains, would you default this match?

[JordanWinning]

At my most recent mixed match, the other team defaulted my court because my partner was 25 minutes late. However, it turned out my partner showed up in time but the front desk of the club sent her to the wrong court.

This was an away match for us and my partner had never played at this particular club before. The opposing captain still chose to default the court. I’m currently disputing the result and my local leagues coordinator is ducking my class.

Captain, would you default a court that everyone was there to play? Has anyone heard of this happening before?

I thought it was ridiculous but this is also my first time playing USTA. After asking around, apparently this Captain is renown turd so I’m not surprised in hindsight but still think it’s silly as heck.

 

[nyta2]

if this was a job interview/biz meeting, would you be as lax, or would you expect a professional to arrive early to figure out where to go, just in case?
yeah i know it's "only tennis", but we're all working professionals, and have to arrange schedules with both work & family to make it to some usta matches (that sometimes are inconveniently timed due to court availability, and usually in an out of the way place than my normal "backyard" courts)
why is your partner's time more important that everyone else's?

very fishy (i call BS) that it took 25m to "find the right court"... if he was there "on time". i'd have been texting saying i was there, but couldn't find anyone, etc...

when i go to matches, i always show up early (accounting for traffic), and if at an unknown location, i tend to show up even earlier (just in case)...

something similar happened to me recently, and the rule is a default after 15-20m i think, but since i wanted to play, and not default, i "compromised" and just said he gets no warmup, and just started playing immediately (with game(s) penalty either)

similarly i've been late to matches (went to wrong similarly named location), and immediately declared that i should technically be defaulted... but they took a similar stance... they came to play, and we just started playing immediately (even after offering a default/games/play the match anyway even if defaulted), but i'd have been 100% ok if they decided to default me.

 

[Max G.]

I agree that is ridiculous. If the person directing them to the wrong court was affiliated with the club, it’s the home team’s fault. No different than the captain themselves directing to the wrong court.

 

[nyta2]

....directing them to the wrong court...

25m to figure this out? BS

 

[Max G.]

if this was a job interview/biz meeting, would you be as lax, or would you expect a professional to arrive early to figure out where to go, just in case?

If someone arrived at the correct place, and then the receptionist directed them to the wrong room, then I absolutely wouldn't hold that against them! Like, how else would the person know where to go? You go to the right building, say who you're there to see and why, follow the directions for where to go next...

Man, if you hold that against people, you might as well lock the doors to the club and default the other team for not being able to get to the courts through the locked door. Same thing - home team isn't supposed to deliberately mislead the visitors to make them late to default them.

 

[JordanWinning]

if this was a job interview/biz meeting, would you be as lax, or would you expect a professional to arrive early to figure out where to go, just in case?
yeah i know it's "only tennis", but we're all working professionals, and have to arrange schedules with both work & family to make it to some usta matches (that sometimes are inconveniently timed due to court availability, and usually in an out of the way place than my normal "backyard" courts)
why is your partner's time more important that everyone else's?

very fishy (i call BS) that it took 25m to "find the right court"... if he was there "on time". i'd have been texting saying i was there, but couldn't find anyone, etc...

when i go to matches, i always show up early (accounting for traffic), and if at an unknown location, i tend to show up even earlier (just in case)...

something similar happened to me recently, and the rule is a default after 15-20m i think, but since i wanted to play, and not default, i "compromised" and just said he gets no warmup, and just started playing immediately (with game(s) penalty either)

similarly i've been late to matches (went to wrong similarly named location), and immediately declared that i should technically be defaulted... but they took a similar stance... they came to play, and we just started playing immediately (even after offering a default/games/play the match anyway even if defaulted), but i'd have been 100% ok if they decided to default me.

I told my partner I was mad at her for being late. If she had been sitting at the front of the club with a “but where do I go face” that middle schoolers have on the first day, it would be totally different than the front desk sending her to the wrong place.
The club we were at had four or five mixed matches going on at the same time, and it we hadn’t met any of the other people on our team (we only knew each other because of a mutual coach). I agree she should have been early but to me the club sending her the wrong place puts at least some onus on the club/host team.

 

[JordanWinning]

If someone arrived at the correct place, and then the receptionist directed them to the wrong room, then I absolutely wouldn't hold that against them! Like, how else would the person know where to go? You go to the right building, say who you're there to see and why, follow the directions for where to go next...

Man, if you hold that against people, you might as well lock the doors to the club and default the other team for not being able to get to the courts through the locked door. Same thing - home team isn't supposed to deliberately mislead the visitors to make them late to default them.

Didn’t include this in the original message because it’s here say at best, but apparently this Captain has the reputation of being… difficult.. to work with. If the leagues has a 6:30 start time, magically her teams always need to play at 6 or 7, Front desk will text her directly for who does and doesn’t show up from visiting teams, stuff like that. Nothing directly cheating but certainly iffy. Especially when the team is full of appeals and just bumped downs lol

 

[esgee48]

I may disagree a little on this. On away matches, we texted the captain or person in charge that we were there at the front desk or reception area. As a group, you go out to your assigned courts. Piecemeal is a recipe for a potential screwup.

 

[Curtennis]

This past weekend my opponent was over 30 minutes late. Legit late. My captain made me start it and finish it at another court (we had a 2 hour time block)… after being furious and a 20 minute drive to find another court I ended up dropping the last set to lose the match. Angry.

 

[tennis3]

very fishy (i call BS) that it took 25m to "find the right court"... if he was there "on time". i'd have been texting saying i was there, but couldn't find anyone, etc...

Couldn't this be pretty easily verified by simply asking the front desk what time she got there? I'm not saying there is a time stamp, but they should know if she came 25 minutes ago or just arrived.

What does it meant to "arrive on time"? Arrive to the club on time? Arrive to the court on time? Hit the first ball on time? What if you arrive to the court and don't have shoes?

 

[JordanWinning]

I may disagree a little on this. On away matches, we texted the captain or person in charge that we were there at the front desk or reception area. As a group, you go out to your assigned courts. Piecemeal is a recipe for a potential screwup.

I think that’s a good way to do it! USTA policy in our area is that front desk sends you out to your court. My guess is this is at least 1% unique because (to the best of my knowledge) 100% of our matches are played at clubs. I can tell you that in the future if I Captain I will meet all my players at the door!

 

[Chalkdust]

I would not take the default, assuming there was a good faith effort to get there on time. We are after all there to play tennis. I would only take a default if I felt the late person was being egregiously disrespectful of our time by being late.
Then again, this is mixed, so who knows...

 

[JordanWinning]

Couldn't this be pretty easily verified by simply asking the front desk what time she got there? I'm not saying there is a time stamp, but they should know if she came 25 minutes ago or just arrived.

What does it meant to "arrive on time"? Arrive to the club on time? Arrive to the court on time? Hit the first ball on time? What if you arrive to the court and don't have shoes?

Legit what I said to their acting captain. She was in the club before the end of the grace period (technically this is her word, I have no actual idea) and the reason she didn’t answer calls and texts was because she had her phone in her bag. Ultimately I can’t verify the veracity of my partner’s claims, but to default when everyone was still standing there felt lame

 

[jimmy8]

At my most recent mixed match, the other team defaulted my court because my partner was 25 minutes late. However, it turned out my partner showed up in time but the front desk of the club sent her to the wrong court.

This was an away match for us and my partner had never played at this particular club before. The opposing captain still chose to default the court. I’m currently disputing the result and my local leagues coordinator is ducking my class.

Captain, would you default a court that everyone was there to play? Has anyone heard of this happening before?

I thought it was ridiculous but this is also my first time playing USTA. After asking around, apparently this Captain is renown turd so I’m not surprised in hindsight but still think it’s silly as heck.

So she showed up to the front desk on time and was sent to a court that was like a 10 minute drive away from the front desk? What kind of club is this? Then she drove back, was told the correct court, then she drove 5 minutes to the correct court? You should complain that this club has some extremely far courts from its front desk.

 

[Purestriker]

Legit what I said to their acting captain. She was in the club before the end of the grace period (technically this is her word, I have no actual idea) and the reason she didn’t answer calls and texts was because she had her phone in her bag. Ultimately I can’t verify the veracity of my partner’s claims, but to default when everyone was still standing there felt lame

You get 15 minutes. That’s the rule. Is she was legitimately lost at the club (seems unlikely) then I would have assumed she would have called at the 10 to 15 minute mark to see what was going on. As a captain, I’m very flexible and would have played it if they showed up within 30. But, they don’t have too and it’s as a captain you gotta over communicate.

 

[tennis3]

Legit what I said to their acting captain. She was in the club before the end of the grace period (technically this is her word, I have no actual idea) and the reason she didn’t answer calls and texts was because she had her phone in her bag. Ultimately I can’t verify the veracity of my partner’s claims, but to default when everyone was still standing there felt lame

I would have defaulted all the courts and just had a team practice at their club with the remaining court time

 

[jimmy8]

Legit what I said to their acting captain. She was in the club before the end of the grace period (technically this is her word, I have no actual idea) and the reason she didn’t answer calls and texts was because she had her phone in her bag. Ultimately I can’t verify the veracity of my partner’s claims, but to default when everyone was still standing there felt lame

She sat at an empty court for like 20 minutes and never looked at her phone and never heard her phone. That's as likely as me winning a grand slam.

 

[JordanWinning]

She sat at an empty court for like 20 minutes and never looked at her phone and never heard her phone. That's as likely as me winning a grand slam.

Like I said in another post, the club was hosting four or five mixed matches that night. She didn’t know anyone on the playing that night. It wasn’t an empty court, it had a bunch of people warming up for a mixed doubles match lol

 

[Purestriker]

Like I said in another post, the club was hosting four or five mixed matches that night. She didn’t know anyone on the playing that night. It wasn’t an empty court, it had a bunch of people warming up for a mixed doubles match lol

Do you not attend the matches? As a captain, I’m there to make sure that everyone is all set.

 

[JordanWinning]

Do you not attend the matches? As a captain, I’m there to make sure that everyone is all set.

I’m not the captain. My captain wasn’t there, but I agree that would have helped alleviate the issue. FWIW, their captain wasn’t there either

 

[jimmy8]

Like I said in another post, the club was hosting four or five mixed matches that night. She didn’t know anyone on the playing that night. It wasn’t an empty court, it had a bunch of people warming up for a mixed doubles match lol

So she didn't know her own partner's name. And she couldn't figure out that she was the fifth person on one court and that meant she should talk to someone - someone on that court, someone at the front desk, a teammate. She couldn't figure it out for like 20 minutes. And she never thought to take her phone out of her bag for a whole 20 minutes. Maybe she was just late and made up the whole story about being sent to the wrong court. Maybe she's an extreme narcissist who is always late and does not care about how she makes others feel.

 

[JordanWinning]

So she didn't know her own partner's name. And she couldn't figure out that she was the fifth person on one court and that meant she should talk to someone - someone on that court, someone at the front desk, a teammate. She couldn't figure it out for like 20 minutes. And she never thought to take her phone out of her bag for a whole 20 minutes. Maybe she was just late and made up the whole story about being sent to the wrong court. Maybe she's an extreme narcissist who is always late and does not care about how she makes others feel.

Lots of questions that no one has the answer to ‍♂️ (or at least no one on these message boards)

 

[tennis3]

So she didn't know her own partner's name. And she couldn't figure out that she was the fifth person on one court and that meant she should talk to someone - someone on that court, someone at the front desk, a teammate. She couldn't figure it out for like 20 minutes. And she never thought to take her phone out of her bag for a whole 20 minutes. Maybe she was just late and made up the whole story about being sent to the wrong court. Maybe she's an extreme narcissist who is always late and does not care about how she makes others feel.

It doesn't matter why she was late. Once the clock strikes 15 minutes past the hour, it's "free win / default city".

From there you just get to make up whatever story you want to about the person that is late. I like "extreme narcissist, etc, etc". Has a nice ring to it.

If I were late for a league match, I'd come in and say "I'm late because you guys aren't worth my f'in time, bunch of sorry losers. You're just damn lucky I showed up at all". Because in the end, it really doesn't matter what you say, so you might just as well have some fun with it.

 

[ichaseballs]

At my most recent mixed match, the other team defaulted my court because my partner was 25 minutes late. However, it turned out my partner showed up in time but the front desk of the club sent her to the wrong court.

This was an away match for us and my partner had never played at this particular club before. The opposing captain still chose to default the court. I’m currently disputing the result and my local leagues coordinator is ducking my class.

Captain, would you default a court that everyone was there to play? Has anyone heard of this happening before?

I thought it was ridiculous but this is also my first time playing USTA. After asking around, apparently this Captain is renown turd so I’m not surprised in hindsight but still think it’s silly as heck.

the captain is allowed to get the win via the rules. this is really on how nice the captain is. usta matches start promptly on time. player should have been in contact with other teammates at worst...
this captain obviously didn't want to lose the court at all costs, so threw the rulebook at you. i am guessing the people still played a "friendly" match even though it didn't count?

this is generally why you tell players to get to court 15 minutes early. and captain should be checking in players.
if captain is not there, assign an acting captain from one of the players to handle admin duties.

 

[Max G.]

It doesn't matter why she was late. Once the clock strikes 15 minutes past the hour, it's "free win / default city".

She wasn't there; she was at the club on time. The other team directed her to the wrong place and then blamed her for it? Ridiculous.

 

[stapletonj]

Not to stir the pot too much, but......

When I am a guest at a club (as a visiting team would be) it is considered the height of rudeness to simply bypass the front desk/check in, wander from court to court, asking "HEY, is this where I am supposed to be?!"

Especially indoors, there are often other events/lessons/permanent court time going on and a very limited number of courts.

We have all had times when we were 15 minutes early for our 1:00 match, but due to other matches running late, sit around an hour, or an hour and a half waiting for our court to open up.

When does the clock start ticking? When you check in at the front desk? When the home team walks on the court?

When does it end ticking? When you check in at the front desk? When you step on the court? When you text your team captain that you ae in the locker room for a bathroom break? Or in the portapotty in the parking lot of the club?

There are few or no USTA teams in my area, so I am unfamiliar with it....

 

[nyta2]

...The other team directed her to the wrong place...

no, the late person trusted some random front desk person, who will not know much (teams, opponents, etc....), other than "courts are that way"...
gotta trust but verify, else you're leaving yourself to be a victim...
late person should have been texting, calling, etc... as the deadline loomed
and if you decide to not leave time to figure this stuff out on the fly & close to the time you're supposed to be there.... you're leaving yourself open to failure.

bringing it back to tennis, that's why you're supposed to spend so much time (footwork wise) in preparing for a shot, so you have the time react/pivot to anything unexpected (bad bounces, unexpected spin, wind, poor front desk directions, etc...)

 

[NumbersGuy]

Your captain hung your team out to dry, and deserves what she got. A good captain finds out from the other captain ahead of time what courts you are on, and texts the team. In a competitive league with a competitive captain, you should expect the default to be taken.

 

[nyta2]

the club sending her the wrong place puts at least some onus on the club/host team.

i get it, you're looking to blame someone other than yourself, your partner, team, coach, captain, etc...
front desk people do not organize the matches/teams... they just say "courts are that way, sign this waiver, pay, etc..."
meanwhile, 5 other people did not fall victim to the front desk fail, and actually arrived early/ontime....

 

[time_fly]

If the player wasn’t on the court until 25 minutes after the match started, that’s a default situation unless the other captain is feeling extra generous. How exactly that happened when the player was at the club the whole time is a mystery for the ages. Maybe start looking at IQ in addition to tennis level when recruiting?

 

[JordanWinning]

i get it, you're looking to blame someone other than yourself, your partner, team, coach, captain, etc...
front desk people do not organize the matches/teams... they just say "courts are that way, sign this waiver, pay, etc..."
meanwhile, 5 other people did not fall victim to the front desk fail, and actually arrived early/ontime....

I’m not at fault lol. I agree my partner should have been early. My understanding, while possibly flawed but certainly the case at other clubs, is the host club is as much a part of the team/structure as the captain. Maybe those are a few overzealous pros and front of house managers, but I again concede five people did in fact manage to be at the correct courts. Had she been early instead of on time this could have been avoided. I also think you are being intentionally obtuse that the person who our league requires us to check in with, is purely in charge of pointing. If they can take my credit card, they can read the sheet to say “Team X is on Court Y.”

However, I will take this back to the original point of the thread: I was curious to see what percentage of USTA captains and regular participators would default the court or expect the court to be defaulted. Seems to be about half of this bunch, which is by nature and definition an extreme portion of the populace, so I’d say the number is closer to a third.

Am I disappointed the court was defaulted? Absolutely. Am I disappointed and even annoyed my partner went to the wrong court? Hell yeah. But as others have pointed out, this is competition and about winning and losing. They gave me a “dispute” button and I’ll be damned if I don’t try to get the win.

 

[fishepa]

Out of curiousity where are you located geographically?

 

[Purestriker]

I’m not at fault lol. I agree my partner should have been early. My understanding, while possibly flawed but certainly the case at other clubs, is the host club is as much a part of the team/structure as the captain. Maybe those are a few overzealous pros and front of house managers, but I again concede five people did in fact manage to be at the correct courts. Had she been early instead of on time this could have been avoided. I also think you are being intentionally obtuse that the person who our league requires us to check in with, is purely in charge of pointing. If they can take my credit card, they can read the sheet to say “Team X is on Court Y.”

However, I will take this back to the original point of the thread: I was curious to see what percentage of USTA captains and regular participators would default the court or expect the court to be defaulted. Seems to be about half of this bunch, which is by nature and definition an extreme portion of the populace, so I’d say the number is closer to a third.

Am I disappointed the court was defaulted? Absolutely. Am I disappointed and even annoyed my partner went to the wrong court? Hell yeah. But as others have pointed out, this is competition and about winning and losing. They gave me a “dispute” button and I’ll be damned if I don’t try to get the win.

You will lose that dispute.

 

[Chalkdust]

However, I will take this back to the original point of the thread: I was curious to see what percentage of USTA captains and regular participators would default the court or expect the court to be defaulted. Seems to be about half of this bunch, which is by nature and definition an extreme portion of the populace, so I’d say the number is closer to a third.

Am I disappointed the court was defaulted? Absolutely. Am I disappointed and even annoyed my partner went to the wrong court? Hell yeah. But as others have pointed out, this is competition and about winning and losing. They gave me a “dispute” button and I’ll be damned if I don’t try to get the win.

What people are revealing from their responses is what's more important to them: Playing tennis, or getting a win.

No right/wrong, and to each their own.

 

[ktx]

what percentage of USTA captains and regular participators would default the court

I have *never* had a person show up late for a USTA match and the opposing team not take the game penalty or default. Stuff happens and communication fails but what is the point of a start time if you can show up whenever with no expected penalty? Also have never had a captain exchange a lineup without confirming everyone is actually on site.

 

[JordanWinning]

Out of curiousity where are you located geographically?

Indianapolis

 

[JordanWinning]

You will lose that dispute.

I did lol

 

[JordanWinning]

I have *never* had a person show up late for a USTA match and the opposing team not take the game penalty or default. Stuff happens and communication fails but what is the point of a start time if you can show up whenever with no expected penalty? Also have never had a captain exchange a lineup without confirming everyone is actually on site.

All I can speak to is the captains I talked to. All of the regular local captains I talked to said that it’s very out of character to take a default. Maybe it’s our midwestern hospitality ‍♂️

 

[socallefty]

If a player showed up to play a match in a rec tournament 25 minutes late, would the tournament default them or not? USTA leagues are at least as serious a competition as rec tournaments. One level more serious than social tennis with your buddies.

I think in my area almost all (maybe all?) captains would take the default on the league scorecard. If the players want to play a fun social match once the late player showed up, they might do so, but it would not count as a USTA league match. Also the default would be taken in doubles line 3 (bottom-up) and the players there on time would have to play line 1 and 2 even if originally one of the pairs was scheduled to play line 3.

 

[JordanWinning]

If a player showed up to play a match in a rec tournament 25 minutes late, would the tournament default them or not? USTA leagues are at least as serious a competition as rec tournaments. One level more serious than social tennis with your buddies.

I think in my area almost all (maybe all?) captains would take the default on the league scorecard. If the players want to play a fun social match once the late player showed up, they might do so, but it would not count as a USTA league match. Also the default would be taken in doubles line 3 (bottom-up) and the players there on time would have to play line 1 and 2 even if originally one of the pairs was scheduled to play line 3.

What’s the rationale for the default always being line three? USTA matches aren’t stocked/ranked, correct?

 

[socallefty]

What’s the rationale for the default always being line three? USTA matches aren’t stocked/ranked, correct?

There is a USTA rule that defaults have to start with the lowest line - if singles, line 2 and if doubles, line 3.

Once I had an opposing player show up 15 minutes late due to traffic, I did not ask for a default or any game penalties, but I made the late player play line 3 even though originally he was supposed to play line 1 on his captain’s lineup sheet.

 

[esgee48]

OP is, I think, new to leagues. Some captains will abide by the rules and some will bend them. But being 25-30 mins late is outside that limit. Your captain should bear most of the blame. Her message to the players should always include date, time, place including an address, opposing team, person in charge if captain is not available, what to do upon arrival. We never had to default any lines at away matches. The first 3 items are crucial so that people know exactly where to go and be on time. Generally, you will know what line you are playing as well as partner if in doubles.

The default protocol is used to prevent mischief due to stacking. It doesn't prevent it, but captains will sometimes play their strongest players at line 2S to guarantee a split. It is especially prevalent when teams scout each other and work out strategies.

 

[JordanWinning]

OP is, I think, new to leagues. Some captains will abide by the rules and some will bend them. But being 25-30 mins late is outside that limit. Your captain should bear most of the blame. Her message to the players should always include date, time, place including an address, opposing team, person in charge if captain is not available, what to do upon arrival. We never had to default any lines at away matches. The first 3 items are crucial so that people know exactly where to go and be on time. Generally, you will know what line you are playing as well as partner if in doubles.

The default protocol is used to prevent mischief due to stacking. It doesn't prevent it, but captains will sometimes play their strongest players at line 2S to guarantee a split. It is especially prevalent when teams scout each other and work out strategies.

Some dedicate more time to leagues than I do my job apparently…
But yes, this is my first year of leagues and it definitely seems that different captains have different interpretations of the spirit of the rules and when to apply them.

 

[esgee48]

Ha ha. Our emails almost always came as a group message with Subject Match (date) with body

”Players ………………. are playing
Saturday April 1, 2023
Match starts 9AM
XXX Country Club at 1234 Alta Drive, Laguna Hills
Opposing Team XXX Strippers
Text me at phone upon arrival at front desk”

 

[Creighton]

i just don’t understand how you guys could both be at the club not not find each other. Do you guys not have cell phones?

 

[Lazuras_Long]

i just don’t understand how you guys could both be at the club not not find each other. Do you guys not have cell phones?

Was just about to post the same thing.

I mean if I was OPs partner, at 5-10 past starting time, I’d be fluctuating between worried that I was in wrong place at the right time or annoyed that I was at the right place at the wrong time.


In Either case, I’d be calling teammates/captain ASAP

 

[Creighton]

Was just about to post the same thing.

I mean if I was OPs partner, at 5-10 past starting time, I’d be fluctuating between worried that I was in wrong place at the right time or annoyed that I was at the right place at the wrong time.


In Either case, I’d be calling teammates/captain ASAP

Yeah I've never been a captain that would default an opposing player. But there is just something really off in this situation where the blame really does lie with the visiting team. Why would you walk to your courts instead of staying in the the lobby until you have your full team? If the person is already running late, you should be confirming with them that they're still coming.

This situation is just odd.

 

[J D]

No, I would never default another team if possible. I’m in it to play, not win by default. As long as my players didn’t have a deadline to leave and court time was available, we played the match. However, If another captain wanted a default if one of my players was late, I wouldn’t argue. Rules are rules.

However, this situation would be an exception in my mind, but 25 minutes is a long time to go missing. Certainly the player knew the 15 minute rule and would have been walking around and calling by 10 minutes past match time?

 

[sweetrugger]

10 minutes before start time, I'm calling my player. I know plenty of captains that would force a default if a player isn't there. Something is fishy if they got sent to the wrong court and it took 25 minutes to figure it out.

 

[fishepa]

Indianapolis

I figured it was a northern city.